It's possible for all of the Primarchs to be brought back

[Scribe]

14 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I want Rogal Dorn to come back. He's the best. The rest are all just filler. 

 

Dead, under a tide of knives in the dark. They recovered a hand.

[Kastor Krieg]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

Dead, under a tide of knives in the dark. They recovered a hand.

Naw.

[Scribe]

6 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Naw.

 

War of the Beast retcons are not admissible in the court of law. ;)

[Arkangilos]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:14 PM, Scribe said:

That's how it should be, and is, right up until Haley ruins it for us.

I don’t know about his other stuff, but Guy Haley has had by far the best depiction of the BA in 40k. Well, him and ADB. 

[Scribe]

18 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I don’t know about his other stuff, but Guy Haley has had by far the best depiction of the BA in 40k. Well, him and ADB. 

 

Maybe, sure. I gave up on him after a few novels.

 

My point is, if there is an author who will be the vehicle by which the central truth of the setting is changed and ruined, I put my dollar bet on Haley pulling that trigger.

[Arkangilos]

50 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Maybe, sure. I gave up on him after a few novels.

 

My point is, if there is an author who will be the vehicle by which the central truth of the setting is changed and ruined, I put my dollar bet on Haley pulling that trigger.

Fair. I haven’t read his other novels that weren’t BA ones, just Dante (and the short story with the LE, it’s the only LE I’ve ever gotten) and Devastation. At least that I can recall. And he captured the BA masterfully imo. 

[One Paul Murray]

You read some of the stuff on here and you'd be forgiven for thinking that people hate GW... you know, the company whose IP sustains this chat site and the hobby it represents. 

 

Over time they have steadily filled out the corners of their IP which was always going to tread on the toes of what some people liked and wanted. That was inevitable. 

 

Bringing back more Primarchs to further fill out the setting is probably also inevitable, but doesn't need to be a massive issue. If done well then there's no reason that they can't diversify and enrich the storytelling. It would, at least, make perfect sense for all remaining Chaos Primarchs to return. At which point, outnumbered 6 to 2, there is not necessarily an issue with returning more Loyalists. Doubly so that you can have Belakor and Vashtorr et al to represent Primarch-tier antagonists as well, in a way that the Imperium would struggle to match. So they should always be hopelessly out matched.

 

What they do need to do, in my opinion and as others have said, is explore these entities more as having their own designs. For instance, Chaos Primarchs should really weaken Abaddon as they fragment whatever hold he has over the disparate legions. Speaking of Chaos though, they really need to explore more of their relationship with the other factions. For instance, if they Tyranids destroy the Imperium then the Chaos Gods would presumably die. Ditto the necrons. So surely destroying those would be a priority? Give the Silent King his time in the sun via those story routes.

 

Overall there is tons of interesting stuff you could do with the characters, and at the current rate of return there is 20-30 years of storytelling that they could do before going anywhere near any of the truly dead ones, so why fret too much?

 

Besides which, for all those who hate the company, if GW is as bad as you think then Sanguinius will be the last flip of the coin for them, and they would definitely release a Sanguinor first to double dip all those BA players' wallets. So that would put him at least 20 years away and very much out of mind.

 

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

34 minutes ago, One Paul Murray said:

For instance, Chaos Primarchs should really weaken Abaddon as they fragment whatever hold he has over the disparate legions

 

Abaddon doesn't have a hold over the other Legions at all. Individual warbands join him out of boredom or wanting to cause chaos onto the Imperium. 6/8 other Legions have their primarchs still.

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Fair. I haven’t read his other novels that weren’t BA ones, just Dante (and the short story with the LE, it’s the only LE I’ve ever gotten) and Devastation. At least that I can recall. And he captured the BA masterfully imo. 

 

Dante, Devastation of Baal and Darkness in the blood are indeed the best depictions of the blood angels. IMO without exception. I love ADB, his horus heresy stuff doesn't cover blood angels though. It tends to cover flesh tearers before they get the name and other successors (Zephon is my favourite "blood angel" character in the heresy, but he's very different). I'd have liked to see an author actually bother to do half a decent job with Raldoron for example, but the edgy alternatives always get the limelight.

 

I also really enjoyed the great work by ADB, one of the better and more interesting 40k novels IMO.

I would agree that the ultramarine vs deathguard books were... not great though, and I've read both versions of them.

 

I personally have never gotten on with Dan Abnett though, so I'm generally considered weird I guess :D as so many people act like he is the second coming on here.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Abaddon doesn't have a hold over the other Legions at all. Individual warbands join him out of boredom or wanting to cause chaos onto the Imperium. 6/8 other Legions have their primarchs still.

Some of those primarchs have actively knelt to Abaddon tbf

[Kallas]

2 hours ago, One Paul Murray said:

Overall there is tons of interesting stuff you could do with the characters, and at the current rate of return there is 20-30 years of storytelling that they could do before going anywhere near any of the truly dead ones, so why fret too much?

You say that as if we didn't just get four Primarchs in the span of about 6 years (since the launch of 8th). At that rate, with one Primarch every ~1.5 years, we're looking at about 10.5 more years for them to fill out the rest of the known to be living Primarchs, and then we'd be on to the dead ones, assuming they don't change pace either way. Edit: I miscounted the men Liz! It'd be 13.5 years because there are 9 alive-but-unaccounted-for Primarchs, not the 7 that I did the numbers with.

 

Edit: I totally forgot about Magnus! So that's five Primarchs in about 7 years, so about one every 1.4 years; which would make the release speed about 11.2 years, so ultimately about the same as the initial estimate!

 

2 hours ago, One Paul Murray said:

If done well

Ultimately, this is the crux of all of it: if done well. Which will vary from person to person, and especially from GW writer to GW writer.

 

Let Dan Abnett and ADB helm the return of the various Primarchs? Sure, probably be alright. Let Matt Ward and CS Goto (yes, I'm just exaggerating for effect) helm it? Oh hell no.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Kallas

[Blindhamster]

I really wouldn't want Abnett helming the return of the primarchs. ADB would probably be great though - especially for the traitor ones as his portrayal of those has tended to be better than anyone elses IMO

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Some of those primarchs have actively knelt to Abaddon tbf

 

O that terrible story arc.

 

Mortarion: ‘Did I know, back then, that it would be Abaddon? Horus’ angry whelp? I often wonder if I should have. They were so alike, those two. For a long time I thought he was dead. And then I thought I’d killed him, when he dared come here.'

 

In the same breathe he considered killing him. The primarchs (specially the 4 cult ones) serve their chaos god, and only help Abaddon when it serves the chaos gods. Even then they sometimes don't listen to them (Mortarion didn't listen to Nurgle during the plague wars and is now in big boy timeout haha).

[Kallas]

50 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I really wouldn't want Abnett

It wasn't really a genuine expectation or desire, just some examples.

 

Abnett is generally well regarded, though I think few would disagree that ADB is the premiere GW writer, at least for making the characters interesting; I feel like Abnett is better with setting than characters personally.

[Karhedron]

17 hours ago, Scribe said:

Dead, under a tide of knives in the dark. They recovered a hand.

 

We know from Praetorian of Dorn that he chopped Alpharius's hands off before killing him. We also know that the Primarchs are genetically almost identical, to the point that Curze fooled the launch systems on the Invincible Reason into thinking he was the Lion.

 

If GW want to bring Dorn back, it would be easy for them to claim he faked his death on the Sword of Sacrilege and left Alpharius's hand behind as "evidence". Not saying this is what actually happened or what GW will eventually write, simply that they have given themselves enough slack in the story leave the possibility open. The other thing to remember is that Curze's visions always came in pairs and he only saw Dorn die in one of them.

[NovemberIX]

18 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I want Rogal Dorn to come back. He's the best. The rest are all just filler. 

He's gotta be wearing a Centurion suite though. Otherwise it just won't feel right.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Abaddon doesn't have a hold over the other Legions at all. Individual warbands join him out of boredom or wanting to cause chaos onto the Imperium. 6/8 other Legions have their primarchs still.

Also, the Chaos primarchs are all demon princes, and demon princes tend to be more concerned with the Great Game, and other obscure personal obsessions, and have no plan or perhaps even desire to fight the Imperium. I know that this has changed a bit recently, but this was how the lore was originally presented.
 

What made Abaddon special was that he had purposely remained mortal, and that he explicitly fights and organizes to try to conquer the Imperium instead of just to spread plague, or take skulls, or mess with the Space Wolves. So, various warbands from all of the Legions occasionally join him if they share his sense of purpose, regardless of what their own primarchs are doing, as their primarchs are probably ing around in the warp, while Abaddon is actually trying to lead a war.

[Jukkiz]

Only acceptable return

[Rhavien]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:30 PM, Kallas said:

Edit: I totally forgot about Magnus! So that's five Primarchs in about 7 years, so about one every 1.4 years; which would make the release speed about 11.2 years, so ultimately about the same as the initial estimate!

That means 12.6 years till GW releases the first of the lost primarchs and 15.4 till Cawl creates a new one 

[Kommisar_K]

We'll since this thread lives again I'ma throw something in. 

The traitor primarchs are already around, so them Getting models is fine. When the loyalists are brought back they better have a real impact, but still maintain the grimdark fell with an appropriate setback, i.e. (and this on the lesser end of the spectrum) the return of Khan, but the Scars left Chogoris undefended to get him, and the Red Corsairs toddled through and turned it into a daemon world. The Lion's return was pitiful. 

If they let Nick Kyme write Vulkan's return I'm gonna cry.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

18 hours ago, Kommisar_K said:

When the loyalists are brought back they better have a real impact, but still maintain the grimdark fell with an appropriate setback

 

18 hours ago, Kommisar_K said:

The Lion's return was pitiful. 

So, just to play Devil's advocate I wanna talk about this. The Lion's return was basically only covered in Son of the Forrest and Arks of Omen. I would argue it meets your first quote. Son of the Foreest was awesome. Real impact? Well, the fallen grew massively in dynamism - some are good guys?! Time travel shenanigans?! As for appropriat eset back, well The Lion is in Nihilus - not the easiest place to get around. Don't get me wrong, I wish we'd have seen a Primarch bros reunion with him and Guilliman but I think The Lion's return does actually meet your first point.

 

As for the other Primarchs - who would change the status quo? I think it's basically who is the most well-adjusted. 

 

Russ, Khan, Corax for me are all aloof. They're not disrupting Guilliman as the defacto Warmaster. The Lion, too, when they do meet, I don't think he will challenge Guilliman's office either as he'll want to stay as a questing knight/monster hunter. 

 

Let's not worry about Sanguinius or Ferrus for now as we'll be way way way down the line before they even consider hand waving them back into the setting.

 

Now, Vulkan and Dorn. Dorn could upset the status quo. If it's heresy Dorn, he might make a better defacto Warmaster. However, if they bring back depressed, Templar-brethren, God-Emperor worshipping Dorn, then he'll just want to crusade, and Guilliman's office is safe again. Vulkan, I admit I don't know as well as other primarchs, but my instict is that he wouldn't challenge Guilliman's office either, simply because I don't see Vulkan as someone who would want to disrupt what Guilliman has made in the Indomitus Crusade.

 

So there you go really, we can have all the loyalist scome back in impactful ways, but the grimdark, backfoot setting is still maintained. I think you just have to give them all a new flaw really, the startingpoint for all being depression.  

[Karhedron]

Guilliman always was the statesman of the Primarchs. While some of the other loyalists might take issue with particular decisions, I doubt any of them would actually want the job the job of Regent (I don't think Guilliman really wants it either but he is painfully aware that there is no one else to do it). In the short term, I don't see any returning Primarch disrupting the status quo. Most of them would be too glad to see another of their brothers to cause trouble. Longer term I am sure issues might arise but I think all the Primarchs are aware of the precarious state of the Imperium and would keep their disagreements private to avoid damaging what is left of it.

 

Dorn and Russ might be bitter that after shattering their Legions, Guilliman has now gone and pretty much ripped up his own Codex. A lot would depend on what state of mind they returned in.

 

Corax always got on well with Guilliman (according to his Primarch novel) and they both hate Lorgar so I don't see much problem here. The Primaris Marines are similar to what Corax tried to do with the Raptors in the Heresy. The only issue is Corax's current status as some sort of Warp entity. I think Guilliman could deal with that since he also knows more about the Primarchs' nature now. I suspect Corax is one of the few Primarch who has not returned because he does not want to.

 

The Khan was aloof during the Crusade and HH and I doubt much would change. He would want to speed out on a crusade to fight crises as they spring up. I think this would probably suit both him and Guilliman since it would free up Guilliman to focus on reforms and rebuilding.

 

Vulkan would probably be pleased to see any of his brothers back. He might ask Guilliman to guard the door in the Throne Room for half an hour since he hasn't had a toilet break in 8000 years. 

 

I will assume that Sanguinius and Ferrus will stay 50 shades of dead for the foreseeable future.

 

The Lion. This is one we actually have a hope of seeing soon. I am kinda surprised BL hasn't gone for the potential drama of these two reuniting. Maybe they want to keep our expectations high. Much like the Khan, the Lion is a military leader and would probably want to be out on the front and again this would probably suit both of them. There is the possibility of him getting suspicious of Guilliman taking power for himself but that whole plotline was thoroughly developed and resolved during the Imperium Secundus arc. I would rather see new stories explored than 40K turn into HH2.0.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

31 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Vulkan would probably be pleased to see any of his brothers back. He might ask Guilliman to guard the door in the Throne Room for half an hour since he hasn't had a toilet break in 8000 years. 

Is this where he is? I always thought he was just "retired" somewhere, farming or whatever haha

[Kommisar_K]

4 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

So, just to play Devil's advocate I wanna talk about this. The Lion's return was basically only covered in Son of the Forrest and Arks of Omen. I would argue it meets your first quote. Son of the Foreest was awesome. Real impact? Well, the fallen grew massively in dynamism - some are good guys?! Time travel shenanigans?! As for appropriat eset back, well The Lion is in Nihilus - not the easiest place to get around. Don't get me wrong, I wish we'd have seen a Primarch bros reunion with him and Guilliman but I think The Lion's return does actually meet your first point.

 

Alright. I'll respect that. You can tell they tried, that much is sure. I recall reading Son of the Forest, it was pretty good, the reason I say Lion's return was "pitiful" is that it feels like he's not making a lasting impact. The forgiven are there though which is cool. I guess it's just having not seen them much afterwards that throws me. 

As far as setbacks, idk. 1/5 of the indomitus crusade going blood mad is something, through I'm not sure that's actually made a major change to imperial control of imperium Sanctus. And Vashtorr got his "key" which while a looming threat, isn't really defined. 

At the end of the day I think what's making me feel this way is the fact that GW isn't really following up on their lore drops. Lion, Leviathan, the "key" and Vashtorr's weapon, insane IG all over. Y'know. It's been mentioned , but not expanded much, and it just doesn't seem to have much to do with him anymore. 

Idk. I'm probably just being picky. Objectively speaking, his return was awesome. I just don't feel it. Absolutely understand and respect anyone with a differing opinion of course. That's one of the cool things about Warhammer, a lot is open to interpretation.

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Is this where he is? I always thought he was just "retired" somewhere, farming or whatever haha

 

We don't really know. That was where he was at the end of the Heresy. He resurfaced during the War of the Beast but was believed to be perma-killed destroying the Orks' Waargh reactor. However he is a Perpetual so could pop up at any time and comment "Ouch, that took a bit longer to recover from than usual".

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

15 hours ago, Kommisar_K said:

Alright. I'll respect that. You can tell they tried, that much is sure. I recall reading Son of the Forest, it was pretty good, the reason I say Lion's return was "pitiful" is that it feels like he's not making a lasting impact. The forgiven are there though which is cool. I guess it's just having not seen them much afterwards that throws me. 

As far as setbacks, idk. 1/5 of the indomitus crusade going blood mad is something, through I'm not sure that's actually made a major change to imperial control of imperium Sanctus. And Vashtorr got his "key" which while a looming threat, isn't really defined. 

At the end of the day I think what's making me feel this way is the fact that GW isn't really following up on their lore drops. Lion, Leviathan, the "key" and Vashtorr's weapon, insane IG all over. Y'know. It's been mentioned , but not expanded much, and it just doesn't seem to have much to do with him anymore. 

Idk. I'm probably just being picky. Objectively speaking, his return was awesome. I just don't feel it. Absolutely understand and respect anyone with a differing opinion of course. That's one of the cool things about Warhammer, a lot is open to interpretation.

On the forgiven, again not to be argumentative, but are the Inner Circle Companions not them? Therefore they got a model release? That feels like a pretty good follow up to their introduction imo.

 

On your further points, I think you're hitting on a wider issue 40k has. 40k is no longer just a setting where the stories told within can be self contained because they're set in m39 765 or whatever. Now it is a setting where you can still do what you want in your homebrew corner of the galaxy, but the cast of characters now exist in an ongoing galaxy wide plot. I think this had to happen. It was becoming ridiculous absolutely everything happening in m41.999 becuase writers couldn't/wouldn't or weren't allowed to move forward.

 

So we now have a plot that moves forward. the big problem is, is that GW drop big lore for this plot essentially every 3 years. Either with the launch of an edition or in the end edition narrative campaign (which typically happen within 6 months of each other). So all those plot points you mentioned, some might get picked up in the next end of edition campaign, others might not. Some might get piked up when GW want ot release a new model that needs cool lore. For instance, I expect Vashtorr's weapon to end up being the means for him to take over the Dark mechanicus, and not some actual emperor killing weapon or whatever. Because the other problem GW has now that they're doing a plot is that they can't kill major characters with models for fear of "feelsbad"-ing their customers and they can't overly disrupt the status quo.

 

Now, this is where Dawn of Fire would have been an amazing series IF they'd have made it like Horus Heresy and made it a serial series for the 40k setting. Say 3/4 books a year , plots moving forward, every faction covered, planet wide and bigger galaxy plots, make Guillliman the MC for the first three books kind like Loken in HH then branch off to here there and everywhere, hitting the key plot points. Early indomitus, Vigilus, Baal, Plague wars, Parriah Nexus, Vashtorr, 4th Tyrannic War.