Full Dark Angel reveal

[CL_Mission]

27 minutes ago, Wispy said:

Speaking, of, I wish there were more plainly robed Primaris minis like LT Zachariah. Mostly to use as Squad Sargent's.

I was hoping for that with this update. Even if it was just a squad of five they'd be good for using as sergeants. New company veterans would have been the best bet but a unique looking intercessor squad would have been nice at least. The more I look at the Companions the more I love them but a base squad of five like sword brethren would have made them even better and lent them to conversions for things like Sterngaurd.

 

Edit: Looking back it seem weird that they named LT Zachariah, same with Tolmeron for BA, you'd think Dark Angels Lieutenant would suffice.

Edited December 28, 2023 by CL_Mission

[Blindhamster]

Probably good alternate heads for the inner circle companions I guess 

[Wispy]

1 hour ago, EnsignJoker said:

Regarding the “regular” looking robed heads on the new upgrade sprue; anybody have an idea where those might be used? I can’t see putting those on any existing Primaris models, they just wouldn’t look right without the rest of the robe. 
 

My point being, might we see a robed Intercessor type model in addition to what’s been previewed? Or are these heads just for use with the few tabards on bladeguard vets and the like?

 

edit: this was really good timing CL lol

I think that's probably it for this update.

 

Some of those hooded heads are obviously intended for Blade Guard given they are painted bone and are that helmet type. So I'm left to deduce the remaining hooded heads, painted green, are for just tactica armour troops... I don't know if hoods but no robes are a thing with Dark Angels before this. 

 

Examining at the Companions, I think if I was a Dark Angel kitbasher, i think some arm swaps and a different paint job would go a long way of putting them in the Primaris LT ballpark. Most of their super veteran status is conveyed by the robes being purple. Box of 3, 3 veteran Sarges to spread around? 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Wispy

[Mike8404]

16 hours ago, Kallas said:

 

 

Still feels odd to just discard 10,000 years worth of history because Daddy Lion said they're cool. Like, the Chapter's and it's successors' identities revolved around hunting down and finding these individuals, but now it's just "Ope, all good now."

 

It seems to be cheap, just sanitising the range to make everything new, literally just discarding the old stuff for no particular reason and apparently without much rhyme. Maybe the Codex will explain things, but I won't hold my breath for much beyond "Lion said it's cool, so it's cool."

 

I'm trying to not stray into Firstborn vs Primaris here, I'm trying to stay on point - the arms and armour of Astartes have been sacred and we'll maintained for literally thousands of years; the armour of the Fallen could feasibly be considered relics (at least, those who may actually date back to the schism, or have salvaged their armour from others who were there). That this kind of stuff (not limited to Dark Angels, but also notably here) is just being discarded feels wrong, especially for a Chapter that has a lot of identity around have old grudges, ancient weaponry and a strong connection to the past (albeit shameful).

 

So yeah. Maybe the Codex will have some answers, but it still feels off, in my opinion.

 

Edit: To expand a little as it kind of struck me a bit more clearly after I hit save: it's about lineage. Astartes have always had a major thread about their gene heritage, from brother to brother to Primarch to Emperor. Some of this was always expressed in their arms and armour, that each suit was a venerated piece of wargear, storied and worn by brothers long past but remembered by each bearer and passed down that way: removing almost all aspects of this to include a single piece of Mk VII is kind of sad - especially when considering that these Risen are literally a major thread of the Dark Angels right back to the Heresy itself.

I think they're what makes the new kits so great.  GW is updating them, but also keeping parts of their old armor too.  Helbrecht is a perfect example of this.  Sure, he's Primaris.  But his armor is a reference to his First Born armor, right down to the Mk II design and helmet.  Its a way for them to remember their past, but also move forward.  Companions have done this well too, imo

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mike8404

[Mike8404]

3 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

You Unforgiven lot sure are a silly bunch. We all know who the True Sons of the Lion are.

  Hide contents

The Star Phantoms. Why hunt for the Fallen when you can melt people and boil them alive just like in the good old days of the Dreadwing?

 

Just like The Emperor intended 

[Rain]

40 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Just like The Emperor intended 

I want a Badab War expansion for HH so badly. 

[OttoVonAwesome]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I want a Badab War expansion for HH so badly. 

Can't imagine a future where that isn't a thing.

[Kallas]

7 hours ago, Wispy said:

Dark Angel fans need to channel their inner Dark Angel and realize that Dark Angels always wore that style of armour, were always that tall, and always had 22 total gene implanted organs. In fact, Inner Sanctum Companions were always part of their chapter formations and I challenge you to find the Chapter records that indicate otherwise!

 

There are no Fallen on the Rock.

  

3 hours ago, Mike8404 said:

I think they're what makes the new kits so great.  GW is updating them, but also keeping parts of their old armor too.

If that were actually the case, I wouldn't have a problem: the issue is that there's like one piece of previous marks of Power Armour included, and the rest is just brand new Mk X. 

 

Helbrecht is a great example, yes, because they actually gave him significant visual reference to previous armour marks. Most modern Marines don't - even Sternguard got like three pieces of armour that weren't Mk X; and the Companions are the same, since we can see one singular piece of armour that is actually reminiscent of previous Marks.

 

That's what I mean by sanitising: old stuff is just being erased for no particular reason, and the references they retain are so minimal as to be irrelevant.

[Marshall Bretton]

12 hours ago, Cactus said:

I'm going to try and drag this back on topic by saying I like the companions so much that I might buy my first nu-scale space marines. If I can get hold of this bundle box before the scalpers. After that I expect that the new shiny enthusiasm will wear off and I'll be back here in ten years bemoaning how they were retired before I got around to buying any.

 

Looking at the warcom article the companions aren't in the bundle box, it's belial, deathwing knights and terminators.

 

So hopefully that will make it easier to get hold of the companions.

[Cactus]

1 hour ago, Gaius Maximus said:

 

Looking at the warcom article the companions aren't in the bundle box, it's belial, deathwing knights and terminators.

 

So hopefully that will make it easier to get hold of the companions.

That's a good point, I got some post-Christmas overexcitment there. But if I don't buy a big box of new terminators I have no real use for new-scale companions either. Nice models are nice so I'm not complaining.

 

I'm curious about the lore in the new codex. For the first time in forever a copy-paste job won't be sufficient but I've been underwhelmed by what little I've seen of recent (ie after 6th edition) ones.

[Marshall Bretton]

I'm curious, the companions have quite alot of key iconography, particularly on their tilting shields where they all have key symbols. Does anyone know what the significance of that may be? I'm not that well read on DA lore and heraldry. Definitely need to read up more as the new changes are making me far more interested in them.

[Jukkiz]

15 minutes ago, Gaius Maximus said:

I'm curious, the companions have quite alot of key iconography, particularly on their tilting shields where they all have key symbols. Does anyone know what the significance of that may be? I'm not that well read on DA lore and heraldry. Definitely need to read up more as the new changes are making me far more interested in them.

Keys usually, for whar i remember, are connected to darker secrets in DA legion

[ZeroWolf]

30 minutes ago, Jukkiz said:

Keys usually, for whar i remember, are connected to darker secrets in DA legion

Quite funny since the Risen/Arisen are the 'darker secret'

[FarFromSam]

23 hours ago, Rain said:

The whole Risen plot point is kind of dumb, but I don’t play DA, so whatever. I guess a lot of DA players didn’t like the Chapter being “pigeonholed” into being Fallen hunters, but the DA’s secrecy and extremism in executing this mission was the key point of the theme of the Chapter. They are called Unforgiven for a reason. Plus it allowed for groups like the Angels of Absolution who believed themselves to be absolved or Luther’s original sin to be interesting foils to most of their brothers.
 

Having the Fallen be redeemed is like saying that the Space Wolves have discovered razors and Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, so their primarch is back,  and he says these Companions guys are really swell, and not to worry so much about those Fallen fellows. So, now they are just like Ultramarines, but—with more hoods. Wow, awesome.

 

What next, have the BA cured the Black Rage because Sangy showed up and told them how to move to the next step in the grieving process?

 

 

This is a well written version of what bounces around in my skull.  Objectively better models and scale, objectively worse watered down lore, but head cannon means you can have the best of both worlds. 

 

After all, how many "Dark Angels? OH you're playing chaos huh?" Jokes have a weathered?   Now, it's "Don't you love Cawl's new hover board heavy dreadnought?"   

[Blindhamster]

25 minutes ago, farfromsam said:

objectively worse watered down lore

*subjectively

[FarFromSam]

To each their own.  Can still enjoy both sides of the coin with these nice models.

Edited December 28, 2023 by farfromsam

[crimsondave]

I really don't get the complaints about the new lore.  I've been following 40k since my early teens and I'm 45.  Change doesn't mean "watered down" to me.  The stupid "FALLEN!  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!" thing was so stale and boring imo.  It WAS interesting, but it needed to progress.  It hasn't even ended.  It's just different.  They still hunt Fallen.  The only difference is they let Lion decide whether they get forgiven or handed over to Asmodai and pals.  The Fallen were hunted because they betrayed the Lion and the Emperor.  The Lion is directly forgiving those he deems uncoruptted.  Being he was the one wronged, would it not make sense for the unforgiven to go along with whatever he said?  They are obsessed with forgiveness from Lion and the Emperor so wouldn't they naturally do whatever Lion or E  said if they showed up in person?  We are talking about the LIon too, after all.  When he meets RG do we really think he's going to go "Hey, Bobby.  You won't believe what happened on Caliban."  I would bet he ain't saying squat to anyone outside the inner circle and will continue the hunt for the Fallen in secret.  I will admit I could be biased.  I'm a huge 30k Dark Angels homer and Lion is my favorite character in the setting.  Dark Angels went from the Emperors genocide specialists he sent when he wanted something erased from existence and history to the almost buffoonish behavior we've seen in the 40k Dark Angels lore.  I'm a big fan of the new lore.  I'm also a fan of moving the plot forward.  Moving the plot forward in 8th is what got me back interested after years and years of barely paying attention.  I know many disagree and that's fine but I can't stay interested when nothing ever changes.

 

The new models are ALL fire to me.  I'm buying them all if I can.  I love the Belial model and he's my least favorite of the new models.  If I had to criticize, I'd say he needs a helmet option.  I'm glad the back banner is gone.  I cut it off Azrael.  I love the terminators, the knights, the sprue.  Everything.  My only true criticism is I'm greedy and I want my upscaled Ravenwing.  Where are my big boy Black Knights GW?!  I try to realize everyone has their own taste but I think some people simply cannot be pleased by anything.  (This last statement is more about not liking the models.  I can understand disagreements about the lore.)

Edited December 28, 2023 by crimsondave
clarification

[chapter master 454]

Personally I see the issue with the loss of older marks of armour here disappearing. It really added some variety and depth but I suppose with Cawl having flooded marines with his new Mark X armour (can't remember, what was the reason 9 got skipped? Pretty we Errant Mark 8 was the latest before Cawl came along). And for these risen boys to come along with purely new style of armour feels...wrong? These are guys who I get would of be scourging up new armour from places but surely they'd have remaining pieces of their older armour...it isn't fragile.

Then again, maybe part of their thing is once forgiven, they don new armour as part of "shedding their old weight".

[Scribe]

By including small bits of older marks, they just leave the door open for additional releases down the road. Like the rescaled MK III.

 

They will all come eventually, its the easiest money GW can make.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, MkX gives me the wrong 'feels' about these guys, I really can't trust them, but I still love the minis.

'Wrongness', Suspicion and cognitive dissonance are virtues inside a Dark Angels Head.

 

Also love those TDA lads, Belial is ok too. It's a shame they're out of scale with my current collection . Given some free monies I'd start a new one, but priorities mean that may not happen.

 

[Robbienw]

3 hours ago, farfromsam said:

 Objectively better models and scale, objectively worse watered down lore,

All of these things are entirely subjective.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Robbienw

[Blindhamster]

@Evil Eye thanks for the respectful disagreement, interested on why though? If people like it and other people don't, and they have reasons for both, the opinions can only be subjective. Robbie is right that it's equally subjective if new or old models are better too. Lion coming back and deciding that some of the "fallen" deserve a chance is character growth, it shows he has developed beyond the petulant child he got depicted as through a bunch of the HH novels. The fact that he still sees there is a reason to hunt the fallen, and execute those beyond redemption means a big part of what made DA the way they are still exists, just now it's got more shades of grey, which is, frankly in keeping with the setting, particularly considering it appears that it's likely still a very specific subset (or even a single individual) that gets to be judge, jury and executioner.

 

There's nothing "objective" above the lore being worse or watered down for the DA, it can be objectively said that the lore has moved on, or changed. But if its better or worse is in the eye of the beholder (reader, not the monster with a central eye and a bunch of eye stalks that can change reality), which means it's entirely subjective. Lore progression is pretty much always going to be subjective, I suppose you could make an argument that if more people leave a faction than join it as a result of lore changes, its objectively worse maybe... Not sure those stats exist though.

 

Aaaaaaanyway.

 

Wonder when the box set and codex will actually drop, I don't recall seeing that stated at all, so could be close or a long way out, also seems like it'll be the standard big box and then big wait kind of affair? Very interested to see how companions actually shape up on the tabletop.

[twopounder]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:46 AM, Kallas said:

 

 

Still feels odd to just discard 10,000 years worth of history because Daddy Lion said they're cool. Like, the Chapter's and it's successors' identities revolved around hunting down and finding these individuals, but now it's just "Ope, all good now."

 

It seems to be cheap, just sanitising the range to make everything new, literally just discarding the old stuff for no particular reason and apparently without much rhyme. Maybe the Codex will explain things, but I won't hold my breath for much beyond "Lion said it's cool, so it's cool."

 

I'm trying to not stray into Firstborn vs Primaris here, I'm trying to stay on point - the arms and armour of Astartes have been sacred and we'll maintained for literally thousands of years; the armour of the Fallen could feasibly be considered relics (at least, those who may actually date back to the schism, or have salvaged their armour from others who were there). That this kind of stuff (not limited to Dark Angels, but also notably here) is just being discarded feels wrong, especially for a Chapter that has a lot of identity around have old grudges, ancient weaponry and a strong connection to the past (albeit shameful).

 

So yeah. Maybe the Codex will have some answers, but it still feels off, in my opinion.

 

Edit: To expand a little as it kind of struck me a bit more clearly after I hit save: it's about lineage. Astartes have always had a major thread about their gene heritage, from brother to brother to Primarch to Emperor. Some of this was always expressed in their arms and armour, that each suit was a venerated piece of wargear, storied and worn by brothers long past but remembered by each bearer and passed down that way: removing almost all aspects of this to include a single piece of Mk VII is kind of sad - especially when considering that these Risen are literally a major thread of the Dark Angels right back to the Heresy itself.

 

Its relic armor to 40k marines, but 30k marines are more practical. I could see them offering their armor to be put in a reliquary and worshipped in exchange for what they see as better/more protective armor to wear in battle. The rubicon is more dubious, if for no other reason that its still dangerous and resource consuming, likely with a large backlog for other members. But they also have a ton of combat experience and wearing the new armor means wearing the new genes, so they could get bumped up in line. 

[Wispy]

I like that older armour marks are the hallmark of Horus Heresy, and that 40k has its own prominent visual style that differentiates it.

 

Also, giving the mutated, piecemeal variations of that old armour as the exclusive purview of Chaos Space Marines is positive development for that faction, who struggled until recent years to visually differentiate themselves from loyalists as something more than 'loyalists with spikes.' they look the part of heretical  remnants today, and the visual storytelling there with the minis is compelling.

 

I suspect the distinction will age well over time and the criticism will be reduced to an oldhammer-type gripe. 

 

That said, I wouldn't mind more Beyard/Grimaldus/Helbrecht type blurring of the lines for loyalists but I think that purview should be reserved for special individuals and not rank and file.

[Mike8404]

34 minutes ago, twopounder said:

 

Its relic armor to 40k marines, but 30k marines are more practical. I could see them offering their armor to be put in a reliquary and worshipped in exchange for what they see as better/more protective armor to wear in battle. The rubicon is more dubious, if for no other reason that its still dangerous and resource consuming, likely with a large backlog for other members. But they also have a ton of combat experience and wearing the new armor means wearing the new genes, so they could get bumped up in line. 

That's how I see this.  To The Risen, their armor is old and, most likely, hasn't been well maintained for the hundreds of years they've been wearing it.  Because of how early they were sent back to Caliban in 30k, it's possible some of these Marines were wearing Mk III which was outdated by the time the Heresy kicked off. 

 

Now they are being granted an opportunity to atone for their sins by taking on a task directly overseen by The Lion, or so has been insinuated.  They're given the opportunity to be given the newest armor befitting their position and, on top of all that, the chance to be upgraded into a bigger, faster, stronger, tougher Marine.  Especially now that the Rubicon isn't anywhere as deadly as it was.  Taking new armor and gaining a better physiology to help them carry out their duties?  Why would they not want that?  30k DA were known for their pragmatism.  They would absolutely take the opportunity to improve themselves.

 

That's how I see them doing this anyway.  It's like having a 2003 Chevy Cobalt and being offered a free 2024 Tesla with the highest package and all the bells and whistles.  Would you keep your Cobalt because you've had it for so many years, or upgrade to the Tesla?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mike8404