Full Dark Angel reveal

[Marshal Reinhard]

honestly, if it weren't for the backpacks you couldn't really tell

[Cactus]

Compared with the mortality rate of having a chat with the Interrogator-Chaplains the Rubicon looks like a very safe bet.

[twopounder]

13 minutes ago, Cactus said:

Compared with the mortality rate of having a chat with the Interrogator-Chaplains the Rubicon looks like a very safe bet.

 

Redeemed don't get interrogated. Just the ones that fail the Lion's test.

[CL_Mission]

2 hours ago, Mike8404 said:

Now they are being granted an opportunity to atone for their sins by taking on a task directly overseen by The Lion, or so has been insinuated.  They're given the opportunity to be given the newest armor befitting their position and, on top of all that, the chance to be upgraded into a bigger, faster, stronger, tougher Marine.  Especially now that the Rubicon isn't anywhere as deadly as it was.

With this is mind I almost wish crossing the Ruicon hadn't been made less deadly as it could lead to some good old fashioned superstition in this very particular case. The Risen could believe that any truly redeemed marine will survive the process but if the slightest impurity remains they will die on the operating table.  

[Cactus]

2 hours ago, twopounder said:

 

Redeemed don't get interrogated. Just the ones that fail the Lion's test.

I get that. The joke was the insinuation that they're presented with a Hobson's choice; repent, cross the rubicon (some chance of death) and receive new arms and armour, or don't and be tortured to death (100% chance of death).

[phandaal]

7 hours ago, crimsondave said:

Where are my big boy Black Knights GW?! 

 

This. GW wants to sell some cool centerpieces... Well, how about a big unit of monster hunting space knights??

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by phandaal

[mecanojavi99]

I have always been of the opinion that an eventual update of Black Knights should give them the option to use lances and shields like actual knights.

[Kallas]

10 hours ago, twopounder said:

Its relic armor to 40k marines, but 30k marines are more practical. I could see them offering their armor to be put in a reliquary and worshipped in exchange for what they see as better/more protective armor to wear in battle.

I mean, part of the problem is that Power Armour isn't generally meant to be (from an out-of-universe POV) New = Better. Mk 7 was the most common and generally the most ubiquitous, but the older Marks had different elements that were better (eg, Mk 6 had better sensors and quieter motors; Mk 3 had greater frontal resilience which made it good for boarding actions, etc).

 

Part of the problem I have with Mk X is that it's just...the best, at everything. It's modular and does every role the best, which is, well, watering down the setting and Marines in general. While not everyone agrees with that, that's fine, it's something that bothers me - a brand new Mark, designed to do everything better than everything, in a setting where technological advancement is normally limited to what is found; it's changing the fundamental state of the setting for...what? It's sanitising the range, and in my opinion it makes Marines less interesting because we lose that sense of weight and history that the Marks provided on a visual level.

 

9 hours ago, Wispy said:

I like that older armour marks are the hallmark of Horus Heresy, and that 40k has its own prominent visual style that differentiates it.

Well, 40k Marines existed long before the Horus Heresy game existed; for the vast majority of 40k's lifespan, the Heresy has been a background part of the setting, not a focal point and while that has changed, changing 40k so that HH has a limited niche in visuals irks me - I get less visually interesting Marines because HH has to have them, great! 

 

9 hours ago, Wispy said:

Also, giving the mutated, piecemeal variations of that old armour as the exclusive purview of Chaos Space Marines is positive development for that faction, who struggled until recent years to visually differentiate themselves from loyalists as something more than 'loyalists with spikes.'

Aren't they "loyalists with spikes"? Like, CSM are literally loyalists turned traitor: that's literally, exactly what happens to make a CSM (other than the few homegrown ones they have). Beyond that, Chaos iconography and unique units absolutely differentiate them: Daemon Engines, Daemonic/Daemonic-adjacent units (like Possessed), Cultists and Daemon allies/summons do differentiate them from Loyalist Marines in a visual manner (as well as CSM typically having a greater preponderance of older Marks of armour).

 

Just sounds like a justification to strip out 30+ years of the setting when they already have an identity - and part of that identity is being the dark mirror, and being a mirror image requires a significant amount of similarities.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

While not everyone agrees with that, that's fine, it's something that bothers me - a brand new Mark, designed to do everything better than everything, in a setting where technological advancement is normally limited to what is found; it's changing the fundamental state of the setting for...what? It's sanitising the range, and in my opinion it makes Marines less interesting because we lose that sense of weight and history that the Marks provided on a visual level.

 

Yep. Marines didnt get interesting again really until the BT refresh, and the 'oh we are just inventing stuff again' post Cawl, is a fundamental shift in the setting, to its detriment.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The Dark Angels spent 30+ years IRL, or 10,000 years in the Universe worshipping their armour and weapons like religious relics, worshipping every single day, for hours.

Hours of honing, refining, shaping, living, breathing righteous hatred into their gear to work the absolute best it can to destroy Traitor,  Heretic, Mutant and Xenos.

The change to different Armour, another Company, or promotion withing the ranks of the Deathwing was a rare, huge and mysterious process which bound the recipient further into the crazy dogma. That change is not one taken lightly.

 

That's one of the big differences between HH marines and 40k ones, HH were meant to be clean, sane, progressive, secular and adaptable. 

40k was their rot, their ignorance, their

blind adherence to dogma.

 

These Companion models, regardless of how subjectivity cool they are do change that vibe forever. They make the Dark Angels just a little lighter. They make progressive behavior normal again. 

I agree with those who think that's to the detriment of the 40k Dark Angels semi-psychotic lore.

Other Brothers here like it, that's cool too, let's not be haters. All hobby is good hobby.

[mecanojavi99]

8 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

The Dark Angels spent 30+ years IRL, or 10,000 years in the Universe worshipping their armour and weapons like religious relics, worshipping every single day, for hours.

Hours of honing, refining, shaping, living, breathing righteous hatred into their gear to work the absolute best it can to destroy Traitor,  Heretic, Mutant and Xenos.

The change to different Armour, another Company, or promotion withing the ranks of the Deathwing was a rare, huge and mysterious process which bound the recipient further into the crazy dogma. That change is not one taken lightly.

 

That's one of the big differences between HH marines and 40k ones, HH were meant to be clean, sane, progressive, secular and adaptable. 

40k was their rot, their ignorance, their

blind adherence to dogma.

 

These Companion models, regardless of how subjectivity cool they are do change that vibe forever. They make the Dark Angels just a little lighter. They make progressive behavior normal again. 

I agree with those who think that's to the detriment of the 40k Dark Angels semi-psychotic lore.

Other Brothers here like it, that's cool too, let's not be haters. All hobby is good hobby.

The thing is, that these are HH marines, these are meant to be the sane, rational and pragmatic soldiers that would use the best equipment around and didn't worship it, for 10K years they have been witnesses to the slow decaying of the Imperium and the appearance of abomination like the Eclesiarchy.

 

So why would these marines of all marines suddenly change their entire way of thinking and embrace the brain rot of the Imperium?

[Nephaston]

13 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

These Companion models, regardless of how subjectivity cool they are do change that vibe forever. They make the Dark Angels just a little lighter. They make progressive behavior normal again. 

If we're being technical for a bit; as far as we know no regular Dark Angel will ever be a Companion if they are exclusively made of Risen, and no Greenwing Greenhorn will even suspect a thing beyond what they are already used to expect from Ravenwing and Deathwing. It is another secret ring withing other secret rings. I doubt anyone beyond the Masters, Interrogator Chaplains and Azrael will have more than an inkling what's going on there.

 

Not to mention the whole process of the Hunt for the Fallen remains 99% unchanged, with the added difference that Papa Lion will have a chat first and maybe make the captive disappear, which only the Interrogators and higher echelons of the Inner Circle will know about. Another difference might be that they will not leave allies for dead if Dad says no.

 

Overall I see this as a good opportunity for more layers of intrigue and irrational fears within the Dark Angels; who are these silent strangers? How are people that find out dealt with? Will otherwise loyal Marines grow resentful? Has the Lion grown weak, sentimental, and/or corrupt? What if he's building a police force to Order 66 any who might oppose him within the Chapters when he makes a grab for power (since they tag along with important characters)? Will any Companions in more distant Chapters be slain outright (like the one BT crusade with their primaris)?

 

Chances are of course that nothing will come of it, but a good writer will hopefully see the opportunity there. Or it's Gav Thorpe and it'll be terrible.

[Interrogator Stobz]

18 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

The thing is, that these are HH marines, these are meant to be the sane, rational and pragmatic soldiers that would use the best equipment around and didn't worship it, for 10K years they have been witnesses to the slow decaying of the Imperium and the appearance of abomination like the Eclesiarchy.

 

So why would these marines of all marines suddenly change their entire way of thinking and embrace the brain rot of the Imperium?

Not after 10,000 years, Warp magic or not.

And you missed the point, it's not about them, it's about the Legion becoming progressive around them.

[mecanojavi99]

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

I mean, part of the problem is that Power Armour isn't generally meant to be (from an out-of-universe POV) New = Better. Mk 7 was the most common and generally the most ubiquitous, but the older Marks had different elements that were better (eg, Mk 6 had better sensors and quieter motors; Mk 3 had greater frontal resilience which made it good for boarding actions, etc).

 

Part of the problem I have with Mk X is that it's just...the best, at everything. It's modular and does every role the best, which is, well, watering down the setting and Marines in general. While not everyone agrees with that, that's fine, it's something that bothers me - a brand new Mark, designed to do everything better than everything, in a setting where technological advancement is normally limited to what is found; it's changing the fundamental state of the setting for...what? It's sanitising the range, and in my opinion it makes Marines less interesting because we lose that sense of weight and history that the Marks provided on a visual level.

 

Well, 40k Marines existed long before the Horus Heresy game existed; for the vast majority of 40k's lifespan, the Heresy has been a background part of the setting, not a focal point and while that has changed, changing 40k so that HH has a limited niche in visuals irks me - I get less visually interesting Marines because HH has to have them, great! 

 

Aren't they "loyalists with spikes"? Like, CSM are literally loyalists turned traitor: that's literally, exactly what happens to make a CSM (other than the few homegrown ones they have). Beyond that, Chaos iconography and unique units absolutely differentiate them: Daemon Engines, Daemonic/Daemonic-adjacent units (like Possessed), Cultists and Daemon allies/summons do differentiate them from Loyalist Marines in a visual manner (as well as CSM typically having a greater preponderance of older Marks of armour).

 

Just sounds like a justification to strip out 30+ years of the setting when they already have an identity - and part of that identity is being the dark mirror, and being a mirror image requires a significant amount of similarities.

You are omitting the fact that:

A) Technological advancement never stopped in the Imperium, it significantly slowed yes, but never truly stopped because STCs kept being found, which is how Grav Guns, Baal Predators, Hellfrost weapons and others came to be.

 

B) It didn't happen overtime or out of nowhere, it took Cawl 10K years secluded in a high tech lab with access to the most extensive information on Marines to come up with the idea of mashing together the best traits of each armor and making slightly taller marines and even then he couldn't come up with for example better Terminator armour.

 

IMO the whole of 40K had become stale and repetitive, like a cartoon series where the good guys and the bad guys meet weekly to go beat each other and then go back home until next week, always doing the same, with no stakes or repercussions.

 

It's the Imperium the same? No, to deny that would be to lie, but it's not inherently worse, simply different.

 

 

[mecanojavi99]

3 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Not after 10,000 years, Warp magic or not.

And you missed the point, it's not about them, it's about the Legion becoming progressive around them.

Especially after 10K years of watching the state of the Imperium, this is like me watching my neighbours home full of poop and trash and thinking "yeah, I want that"

 

Guilliman who hadn't seen a fraction of the whole decaying mess that is the Imperium and had the mental fortitude of a Primarch fell into depression to the point of wishing that Horus had won, these marines have seen all that happen first hand.

 

Except no one has become progressive about them, they are mysterous agents of their Primarch hand picked to protect their most important characters for which they are given acces to the best equipment around, which happens to be a custom version pf Bladeguard armor, I dont see what's progressive about that, it's following your Primarchs orders.

[Malakithe]

Its kinda funny and ironic theres such a divide here...almost like a certain group that turned their backs on their brothers to do their own thing...hmm what was that group called again? Probably not important cuz I like the new stuff.

[Blindhamster]

Lore wise, the companions in many cases won’t be that old if we assume they’re the risen, pretty sure even in the novel the concept got introduced at least one of them had only experienced a few years since caliban? 
 

and regardless, during the great crusade and heresy making new armour was as pretty standard practice, so for those marines it won’t even seem so weird. 
 

as far as mks of armour go, I generally use the deathwatch rpg as my go-to for which armour is the best. And that’s mk8 from a pure features perspective. Whilst mk3 had better arm and leg (frontal) protection than mk7, mk7 is better in every other way or at least as good (body protection is as good on the front as mk3, and better on the back), mk6 has slightly better sensors, but that’s really it, and that’s just its helmet. 

 

i don’t think mkx is shown to have better sensors than mk6. Honestly I’d love to see how mechanically the armour would compare in an rpg system lol.

 

its a shame there is still a great rift in the community, but it is what it is, as others said, all hobby is good hobby, I hope for those that like the new stuff less, you can find things you do like to keep you involved and entertained 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

You are omitting the fact that:

A) Technological advancement never stopped in the Imperium, it significantly slowed yes, but never truly stopped because STCs kept being found, which is how Grav Guns, Baal Predators, Hellfrost weapons and others came to be.

I'm not omitting that, I literally included it:

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

technological advancement is normally limited to what is found

It might not be clear, sure, but it is referring to STCs and the otherwise glacially slow development of anything new because it's been established that much beyond STC tech is frowned upon - Cawl coming up with a heap of new weapons, armour and vehicles and just spaffing them out, and them being widely accepted (yes yes, son of the Emperor says so, yes there are justifications which are about as weak as possible) is problematic because it's such weak writing.

 

And to keep on point: the reason why this is kind of a problem with the Companions is that, well, they're just ditching their arms and armour that have apparently served them well enough for the 10,000 year long war (whether they themselves as individuals are 10,000 years old is irrelevant: to the Chapter it's a secret war that's extended for that long), and gear that would reasonably be considered relics by the Chapter are just being tossed aside because Cawls shiny pattern of tech heresy is better (which is also just problematically weak writing) is just frustrating.

 

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

B) It didn't happen overtime or out of nowhere, it took Cawl 10K years secluded in a high tech lab with access to the most extensive information on Marines to come up with the idea of mashing together the best traits of each armor and making slightly taller marines and even then he couldn't come up with for example better Terminator armour.

Yes, one character who apparently lives for 10,000 years, able to run around the galaxy for that long with all the support necessary, doing all of the things he does, having his fingers in every pie is a problem. Not everyone shares that opinion, but it's something I think shifts the way 40k appears: by having Cawl doing everything better than everyone, and him doing it all the time and hidden away but totally everywhere is poor writing and a lazy excuse.

 

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

IMO the whole of 40K had become stale and repetitive, like a cartoon series where the good guys and the bad guys meet weekly to go beat each other and then go back home until next week, always doing the same, with no stakes or repercussions.

This has nothing to do with Primaris or the return of Primarchs. This status quo could easily have been changed through actual story beats and development that weren't more cartoonish than actual saturday morning cartoons. The Cawl/Guilliman progression was the clumsiest handled piece of 40k lore since something like Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. The Lion being part of it now is not much better - he's back, Fallen are good now, give them Primaris upgrades!

 

The writing previously absolutely was bad before, I'm not arguing in favour of persistently rehashed things that go nowhere, but there was absolutely room for development that wasn't so lazy, and that continues to be lazy. Some of the things they've done recently have just been change for the sake of change; and plenty of them have been rooted in model sales rather than any kind of care for the lore - while it's all "part of the lore" because, well, GW wrote it so it is, it doesn't make it good. 

 

Do we need the same characters over and over again? No, we don't, it's why things like Calgar and Ragnar living forever, even when they literally die (didn't Ragnar get his head cut off? Or was that Ghaz?) they get brought back because they're the big sellers - even though it'd be more interesting, from a story perspective, to actually have some change. Instead, we get milquetoast character 'development' where they change but nothing actually changes (cartoonish, like you said) but people get to claim things have changed because new models came out.

 

To bring it back around to the Companions again: they're new, and they're a development on the Fallen...but they're not actually any kind of change. They're both new and invoke change because the Fallen have been forgiven by the Lion; but the Hunt continues because they can't actually stand to change things - so we still have Fallen out there (how many are there?) that aren't forgiven, but the Chapter has accepted them into its ranks, but they've layered on more secrets because that's The Thing that defines Dark Angels so that nothing changes! Round and round it goes - they are continuing the same cartoonish thing that you decried, but you are lauding it as if they've actually changed anything.

 

The Companions could easily have just been a Dark Angels-specific kind of Bladeguard with how much they stand out from other Primaris. They're essentially just that: Bladeguard with Dark Angels iconography, there's no real link to the Fallen in their visual style and there's no actual plot change in the lore because Fallen are actually still the target of their hunt even though they were forgiven, but not all of them, but they were, but they weren't. It's as cartoonish as you deride the past lore for being.

 

The best 40k stories have always been relatively zoomed in parts: trying to tell the story of the galaxy as a whole is a fool's game. Armageddon, Vraks, Cadia - these are the kinds of storylines that have generally actually worked from narrative perspective, because they can tell a story, have development within it and even have it have an impact on the wider galaxy - but it doesn't change the whole thing. Even Cadia didn't change things much: we got the Cicatrix Maledictum, right? That changed things right? No, we just got New Cadia, aka Vigilus and the Nihilus Gauntlet; otherwise, the status quo still pretty much exists in pretty much unchanged, cartoonish form except the names have changed from Cadia to Vigilus. We aren't getting significant story telling, we are getting new model releases with a shallow cartoonish storytelling veneer to pretend things are different when they really haven't changed a bit - they've just painted over the details we had before in an effort to sell you that things have changed, and that's where I fundamentally dislike it; nothing is actually different, they just dumped on previous lore for the sake of appearances; so that they can sanitise the model range and resell it.

 

1 hour ago, mecanojavi99 said:

It's the Imperium the same? No, to deny that would be to lie, but it's not inherently worse, simply different.

Like I've stated a few times in my posts, I do feel it's worse - but I've also clearly stated that it's my opinion. Yes, it's different. I think it's worse; you don't.

 

18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

and regardless, during the great crusade and heresy making new armour was as pretty standard practice, so for those marines it won’t even seem so weird. 

That's the thing though: this isn't the Great Crusade, nor the Horus Heresy. It's the 42nd Millenium, it's 40k, not 30k. Even if the Fallen/Risen themselves want the new shiny gear, the fact that the Chapters are just shovelling their old gear into the rust pile is kind of the problem - that they're just discarding all of their relics and venerated gear because Cawl handed them a new suit of Mk X is one of the problems, because that was always a big thing about Marines (and the Imperium in general). Of course better tech is better, but the Imperium is twisted and backwards: new is better, but because of the 10,000 years of grinding war and toil and religious zealotry, things don't get accepted: change is bad, change is avoided unless it's proven to be part of what's acceptable (eg, STCs, or some Saint's lost bones found again).

 

So while the Risen might be happy with new gear that's better (which, again, is kind of the problem with it anyway) it's problematic that the Chapter is (and most Chapters are) willing to just discard these relics. That's the crux of my issue with the Companions' gear: there's no link to who they were, and while thematically that can be hand-waived, it shouldn't be hand-waived because the Fallen have been such a major part of the Dark Angels' legacy for the past in-universe 10,000 years/ IRL 30-40 years. There should be some acknowledgement about who they were on the models.

 

But I'm shouting into the void, so I'm gonna stop typing.

 

17 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

its a shame there is still a great rift in the community

There's only one entity to blame for that.

[Doghouse]

I think the new models look quite nice, the robes work quite well and I like the swords, Not a fan of the terrible name Risen though as it makes them sound like a loaf of bread. 

 

I miss the days when every stone didn't have to be unturned and that which lay beneath needlessly exposed in great detail to cash in on nostalgia completely missing the point of the mystery in the first place.

[Blindhamster]

22 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

Not a fan of the terrible name Risen though as it makes them sound like a loaf of bread. 

thankfully the actual unit isn't called that, seems to be inner circle companions, which is "better" at least.

[lhg033]

I keep looking at the new robed guys and wondering if, with a few bits swaps, they could fit in HH possibly as robed deathwing companions
(sorry if someone else has suggested this before - have only skim read this as am at work and should be busy with that)

 

with the right paint job/ambiguous wargear versions etc they might even work as dual system

 

 

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

snip

Space marines have always been more pragmatic than the wider imperium, whilst they revere the weapons and the armour etc, its incorrect to say that all suits of power armour are old relics of the past, forge worlds still created new suits of armour, new weapons and new tanks which were happily used. They were just to an older pattern generally. But for space marines better is still better generally - mk8 is extensively used by the deathwatch precisely because its better than what came before, brothers going to the deathwatch often got their armour replaced with the errant armour for that reason, similarly, its lore says that it's often worn by veterans as a symbol of rank, its old now but still far far newer than any of the other mks.

 

The only thing thats really different is that its a "new" mk of armour thats getting newly made now, not an old design. But again, most suits of power armour worn in a chapter isn't some ancient relic of the past, or at the very least, it isn't wholy some ancient relic from the past, it may have a gauntlet, helmet, chest plate etc that was, but otherwise will mostly be more recently made. The imperium hasn't lost the ability to make power armour of any kind, it's only terminator armour that has the lore about legitimately being irreplaceable relics (and even that's a stretch considering how many major battles show chapters losing vast numbers of terminators).

 

Sure there are some chapters that are so dogmatic that the idea they use anything other than ancient battered suits of armour is kinda strange, but the vast majority it makes perfect sense they'd use newer models if they're proven to be even 1% better. The real benefit of mkX is really the extension of earlier mks modularity to the extent that it can be stripped down or bulked up depending on the mission. And now we're seeing that whilst mkX tacticus may have initially been used in chapters as pretty stock, given time the chapters own traditions result in it getting modified and made more baroque as the chapter sees fit.

 

Basically, I can 100% understand that people don't like mkX, for me I liked it instantly precisely because my favourite mks of power armour were: mk4 and mk8 which is where most of mkX designs come from, with a sprinkling of mk3 perhaps. But saying "it makes no sense that chapters would use it" feels incorrect to me, because, as noted, the vast majority of marines weren't wearing relic suits anyway, and we've already seen, in the cases they were, those suits have tended to be adapted rather than outright replaced. The Companions would have maybe benefitted from a few more earlier mk details dotted in, but it still makes perfect sense they'd be using newer gear.

 

p.s. There's no cartoonishness to the story for the risen and fallen. The lion doesn't forgive them automatically, they have to be capable of redemption for him to do so - any that truly gave in to chaos still being enemies, makes as much sense as anything else in the setting.

 

 

 

 

[lansalt]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

things don't get accepted: change is bad, change is avoided unless it's proven to be part of what's acceptable

I keep seeing this argument against Cawl and the primaris, and it seems to me like a very reductionistic interpretation of the fluff that isn't actually supported by it.

Like, the Ecclesiarchy got a whole range of shiny new custom made patterns in M36 for the Sisters of Battle. Or the story about how the Razorback came to be. Or how the Dark Angels began using the Dark Talon/Nephilim jetfighter in M40.  It's evident and almost a trope that new tech gets rubberstamped by the AdMech when it suits them for political reasons all the time, and a Primarch is very good one.
The Companions's old armour cannot be a relic because they're former Fallen that weren't part of the DA traditions for the last 10k years. Their worn out suits, or worse, repaired by hereteks while they were on the run, could only be a divisive reminder of the traitor Fallen still missing. It makes perfect sense in-universe that they got new armour just like they got a new life again, at the same time that it signals their allegiance.
Likewise, marines that cross the rubicon and get primaris gear do not simply ditch in the trash their old armour. They can combine old parts with the new ones (Calgar, BT) and the rest gets put into the Chapter's reliquiary just like they've been doing with their old stuff for millenia.

[Kallas]

12 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Space marines have always been more pragmatic than the wider imperium, whilst they revere the weapons and the armour etc, its incorrect to say that all suits of power armour are old relics of the past

Yes, but these are individuals with suits literally from (in-universe perspective) 10,000 year ago. They would/should be considered relics by the perspective of 'modern' Dark Angels. And yes, while not all suits are venerated as relics, they are still generally handed down between generations of Marines, and typically storied suits that new wearers learn about when they inherit them.

 

13 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

forge worlds still created new suits of armour, new weapons and new tanks which were happily used. They were just to an older pattern generally.

Newly crafted; ancient designs. Mk 8's advancement is predominantly the gorget, corresponding reduction in helmet protrusion, and abdomen armour plating - hardly the scale of change of Mk X which is highly modular on top of many additional changes (additional plates on the forearm and thigh; the knee 'crest'; the ankle joint; overhauled power pack; and probably more than I'm missing at a glance). Mk 8 was representative of the crawl of Imperial advancement; Mk X, as well as the accompanying arsenal of weapons and vehicles, is a shift away from one of the principles of the setting.

 

18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

The imperium hasn't lost the ability to make power armour of any kind

Again, not the point I'm making: the forgiven Fallen are wearing suits from 10,000 years ago, from the perspective of the modern day Dark Angels.

 

19 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

And now we're seeing that whilst mkX tacticus may have initially been used in chapters as pretty stock, given time the chapters own traditions result in it getting modified and made more baroque as the chapter sees fit.

Are we seeing that? Chapter Veterans (eg, Sternguard) just discarded all of their old gear bar like two/three pieces. The Inner Circle Companions discard all of their gear immediately to use Mk X. I'd accept your point if it actually bore out on the miniatures, but it simply doesn't. New Marine models have 95%+ Mk X armour, with only a handful of older Marks present at all, let alone in any significant visual amount.

 

Logically, why would Chapters ever use any older Marks, now that they were all handed ten bajillion suits of Mk X and the capacity to just churn out more? Which is one of the problems I have: it's reducing one of the interesting parts about Marines (ie, the relics that they have and veneration of lineage through wargear) by making Marines functionally mass-produced. 

 

23 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

But saying "it makes no sense that chapters would use it"

I never said "it makes no sense that chapters would use it" - I have said that it makes no sense that Chapters would discard all their old gear, which is what is happening: GW is sanitising the range of miniatures through removal of the older Marks. The tiny amount of armour pieces in the range is laughably small - considering that just a basic Tactical Squad box used to have three variations of leg armour types, six variations of chest armour, three variations of power pack, and three variations of shoulder pad (and these are all at a quick glance at one of my half-used sprue sets); whereas Primaris sprues are almost 100% identical, the armour has no variation outside of the something like three pieces in the Sternguard and the one ICC helmet.

 

That's (one of) the point(s): the range is actively being sanitised of the older marks of armour, and the lore is part and parcel of GW managing that by basically saying Mk X is super ubiquitous, super easy to manufacture (ie, Cawl's Unnumbered Sons coming with flatpack manufacturing) and just the best of all worlds, which is why the old suits which could reasonably be considered actual relics from the Heresy apparently being discarded is pretty lame.

 

15 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

p.s. There's no cartoonishness to the story for the risen and fallen. The lion doesn't forgive them automatically, they have to be capable of redemption for him to do so - any that truly gave in to chaos still being enemies, makes as much sense as anything else in the setting.

The cartoonishness was in relation to what mecanojavi99 was saying, which was that the old lore was cartoonish because it didn't move along. I was pointing out that the new lore is not any better in that regard: and while there certainly will be some nuance to the Lion's forgiving of the Fallen, it is still just as cartoonish for the Fallen to be forgiven and then the Dark Angels continue on exactly the same path as ever, because nothing has changed - that's the same level of cartoonishness that was complained about, about prior lore not changing anything: the forgiveness didn't realistically change anything, but it's being portrayed as if it's significant.

[Blindhamster]

10 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Are we seeing that?

I’d say yes, not because they’re using older mks, but because the mix is gradually getting embellishments and tweaks more in line with chapter individuality. Stuff like different chest designs, replacement of greaves, arm armour adjustments and embellishments, and yes maybe occasionally an older mk helm or other piece. 
 

part of the issue, is GW made everything very uniform initially (much like 2nd Ed marines were I guess), this was a mistake as I genuinely think people would have enjoyed the update more with some variety in some of these features even if the armour design had been predominantly mkX. I.e. had each of the intercessor body’s had a different chest design and perhaps a couple alternatives, plus one without knee joints like mk6, one without the knee crest more like mk7 and instantly the visual variety would have placated far more people - just look at sternguard.

 

obviously it wouldn’t be enough for some and that’s fine too. The heresy kits will work more than fine for 40K for those inclined toward avoiding mkx too. 
 

Anyway, I’m interested to see how the narrative unfolds for the dark angels, and excited to see what bits I can pilfer from their kits :D