Full Dark Angel reveal

[Kallas]

44 minutes ago, lansalt said:

I keep seeing this argument against Cawl and the primaris, and it seems to me like a very reductionistic interpretation of the fluff that isn't actually supported by it.

Like, the Ecclesiarchy got a whole range of shiny new custom made patterns in M36 for the Sisters of Battle. Or the story about how the Razorback came to be. Or how the Dark Angels began using the Dark Talon/Nephilim jetfighter in M40.  It's evident and almost a trope that new tech gets rubberstamped by the AdMech when it suits them for political reasons all the time, and a Primarch is very good one.

Sure, if you ignore where they actually come from and how they differ from the Primaris introduction. STC discoveries and minor field modifications (eg, Razorback and Land Raider Crusader) are very different from, "and here's a new Mark of Power Armour, plus a heap of new weapons, plus a heap of new vehicles and tech (repulsor plates)".

 

The Land Raider Crusader, for example, was written about how it actually was actively pushed back against by the AdMech at the time. The Black Templars did not create a brand new vehicle, or brand new weapons, or an entire new line of modular armour - they modified the weapons on a Land Raider to suit an anti-infantry role (Assault Cannons, which existed already; and Hurricane Bolters, which was basically a bunch of regular Bolters strapped together), and it still took decades for the design to be officially approved.

 

Mk X and the accompanying onslaught of gear appears and everyone's cool with it (in the 8th Ed Codex, literally stating that 97% of Chapters accepted and use the new stuff, yeesh). For some of the other stuff like Centurion suits and new vehicles, yup, it's certainly a stretch until we look at the lore they included: Nephilim Jetfighters were used once they discovered the STC for the engines; the Land Speeder Vengeance STC was discovered in M36.

 

Fundamentally, a lot of this stuff is just flimsy justification for including new stuff, I absolutely get that: but it follows what the lore has established - that the Imperium is basically bankrupt of progression beyond what they can scavenge from the remains of humanity's past in the form of STCs. The Primaris gear completely bucks that and goes off the deep end by introducing large scale change. Hell, if they'd actually included STC technology into the changes, I personally would have received the whole thing better (not well, mind, because it's still got a ton of problems, but better) but they didn't, they just hand-waved it all as totally fine because Cawl and Guilliman; and now it's totally fine to just discard Fallen gear.

 

44 minutes ago, lansalt said:

The Companions's old armour cannot be a relic because they're former Fallen that weren't part of the DA traditions for the last 10k years. Their worn out suits, or worse, repaired by hereteks while they were on the run, could only be a divisive reminder of the traitor Fallen still missing. It makes perfect sense in-universe that they got new armour just like they got a new life again, at the same time that it signals their allegiance.

What? Modern-era Marines would absolutely consider Fallen armour to be relics: it's literally gear that has a tangible thread to the Chapter's past. That's pretty much the definition of a relic: "an object from the past, especially one that has no modern use but is often valued for its meaning or importance in history." These suits would 100% be relics of the Chapter - and as for them being of "no modern use", well that has never been important for Marines before, at least not until Mk X

 

44 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Likewise, marines that cross the rubicon and get primaris gear do not simply ditch in the trash their old armour. They can combine old parts with the new ones (Calgar, BT) and the rest gets put into the Chapter's reliquiary just like they've been doing with their old stuff for millenia.

They don't? Seems like they do, because that armour basically never appears again. As for Calgar, they trashed his suit of Terminator armour to craft a Terminator/Gravis hybrid. Pretty much all depictions of Marines are only ever Mk X, with a miniscule amount of older Marks appearing only recently and in such a small amount that it makes one wonder why they even bothered. Surely, if the new gear is better, why bother? And if the older stuff is put into the reliquary like you say, why are they wearing it?

 

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

just look at sternguard.

Yeah, I have, and the variety there, amongst the Chapter's Veterans, is astoundingly lacking - it's all Mk X except for a couple of helmets, and a shoulder pad that is meant to be a nod to Mk V but is still clearly Mk X (which misses the point of the bonding studs entirely).

[lansalt]

5 minutes ago, Kallas said:

The Primaris gear completely bucks that and goes off the deep end by introducing large scale change

It really doesn't. Primaris gear is also pretty much refined and brute forced versions of already existing tech (Repulsors are just bigger land speeders, Gravis isn't as good as Terminator armour). The AdMech still keep for themselves the really high end stuff.

I think that you make big reductionistic assumptions about how things work in 40k out of introductions to the setting in past rulebooks, without taking in account nuance or the times those points have been shown as not to be taken literally.
There's also the fact that GW has been adding more fluff about Cawl since 2017, like how he lies about his new stuff being based on platonic STCs he has discovered by inference, so the other AdMech members can save face.
 

 

[Mike8404]

34 minutes ago, Kallas said:

"and here's a new Mark of Power Armour, plus a heap of new weapons, plus a heap of new vehicles and tech (repulsor plates)".

How is that any different from Mk8?

 

34 minutes ago, Kallas said:

They don't? Seems like they do, because that armour basically never appears again. 

Did you not see the Black Templar range refresh and didn't  notice how the MkX armor heavily incorporates old marks into it.  Helbrecht still has 99% of his Mk II armor.  I feel like you didn't.  IRL the WarCom article on the BT refresh even stated designers looked at upgrading the model using the old designs while modernizing it to the current Primaris range.

 

Obviously, that's what they did with Companions too and they killed it.  They're the best models since Sword Brethren and BGV.  

 

Also, Primaris Sword Bros still incorporate their old Mk VI armor into their MkX.  Look at their shins.

 

I wanted to edit and add this too:

When I see the reaction videos online I don't see people really excited over the new Deathwing Knights.  I'm not saying they aren't, but every video on the refresh quickly talks about how cool the new Knights are, then immediately fixates on the ICC models and praises them as the best looking models in the refresh.  And they are.  We finally have Primaris in robes and the design team nailed it.  I'm even a fan of the under armor tabards and how they found a way to keep them and add robes and DA symbology around it.  These models are a massive step in the direction they should have went years ago and I can't wait to see how Sang Guard and the Sanguinor turn out

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mike8404
Helbrecht wore Mk II, not III. My bad

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, lansalt said:

It really doesn't.

It was literally introduced across the galaxy in the span of 200 years to 97% of Chapters, and included a full range of power armour, weapons and vehicles. You can't get much more large scale.

 

4 minutes ago, lansalt said:

I think that you make big reductionistic assumptions about how things work in 40k out of introductions to the setting in past rulebooks, without taking in account nuance or the times those points have been shown as not to be taken literally.

I think you and others don't want to hear criticism of things you like, so I guess no-one is happy.

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

How is that any different from Mk8?

Cool, just ignore how I literally talked about Mk 8 previously:

57 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Mk 8's advancement is predominantly the gorget, corresponding reduction in helmet protrusion, and abdomen armour plating - hardly the scale of change of Mk X which is highly modular on top of many additional changes (additional plates on the forearm and thigh; the knee 'crest'; the ankle joint; overhauled power pack; and probably more than I'm missing at a glance). Mk 8 was representative of the crawl of Imperial advancement; Mk X, as well as the accompanying arsenal of weapons and vehicles, is a shift away from one of the principles of the setting.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Did you not see the Black Templar range refresh and didn't  notice how the MkX armor heavily incorporates old marks into it.

I must have missed it. Would you mind linking me to the article?

 

I did see Helbrecht, who does have strong inferences, and the Castellan which is basically the only non-Mk X model to have come out in recent years (aside from Terminators/Scouts).

 

5 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Obviously, that's what they did with Companions too and they killed it.  They're the best models since Sword Brethren and BGV.  

Depends on you preferences as to whether they "killed it" on style. For me, they absolutely didn't. Posing and proportions? Sure, the new models have all been great. Style and adhering to design principles? Major miss for me.

 

6 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Also, Primaris Sword Bros still incorporate their old Mk VI armor into their MkX.  Look at their shins 

These? That are clearly Mk X all the way, in every sense?

Spoiler

 

[lansalt]

2 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I think you and others don't want to hear criticism of things you like, so I guess no-one is happy.

I think you and others don't want to hear criticism isn't valid just because it criticises something popular. And I have plenty of criticism for stuff many other do not have problems with, like Centurions, the ATV, heavy stubbers on SM vehicles, the Dorn tank underside...

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, lansalt said:

I think you and others don't want to hear criticism isn't valid just because it criticises something popular.

You think I'm criticising Primaris because they're popular? I'm critcising them because I hate their design and lore. It has nothing to do with how popular they are.

 

And I'm criticising the Companions because they're barely anything beyond Dark Angels-ified Bladeguard.

[lansalt]

3 minutes ago, Kallas said:

And I'm criticising the Companions because they're barely anything beyond Dark Angels-ified Bladeguard.

If anything it's the opposite. Bladeguard came out of nowhere as DA-like generic marines that didn't fit the Ultramarines at all (and they have basically no lore), and the new DA Companions are a very obvious mix of 30k DA companions and knights cenobium with very specific fluff.

[Mike8404]

16 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Cool, just ignore how I literally talked about Mk 8 previously:

To be fair, you've written novella in this thread.

 

16 minutes ago, Kallas said:

I must have missed it. Would you mind linking me to the article?

This link is for the range itself:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/21/redesigning-the-black-templars-how-the-team-updated-the-chapter-that-refuses-to-change/

This one is for Helbrecht on his own:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/20/helbrecht-returns-the-high-marshal-who-leads-his-crusades-from-the-front/

16 minutes ago, Kallas said:

These? That are clearly Mk X all the way, in every sense?

  Hide contents

 

If you look at the old Sword Brethren models, they are very close in appearance, the new ones are just resized and given a slight modern appearance

Spoiler

 

13 minutes ago, lansalt said:

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mike8404

[Kastor Krieg]

18 minutes ago, Kallas said:

These? That are clearly Mk X all the way, in every sense?

Yeah, aside from:
- the mk8 "sternguard" height of the gorget (and its chapter-specific prow shape)
- chapter-specific "sternguard" style helmets 
- mk6 style interconnected shin and knee plate (unlike those being separate pieces in mk10)



And probably some more. Those are not pure mk10 in any sense or fashion.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Kastor Krieg

[Matcap86]

I vote we rename this thread "One Frater's raging against the dying of the light". 

 

For what it's worth I do mostly agree with your dislike on some of the primaris aesthetics @Kallas. It's been getting better but the ankle bulbs and the kneepad trim keeps rubbing me the wrong way. I also hope they continue the trend with more variation in armour in the space marine range. Almost every primaris model in tacticus armour has pretty much the same backpack and mostly the same legs. I'm happy they're at least varying chest pieces, shoulder pads and helmets nowadays albeit mostly for specific chapters. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by matcap86

[Kallas]

20 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

To be fair, you've written novella in this thread.

I don't mind responding, but if you're gonna call me out on something that I've mentioned, it's not my fault that you ignored it. Yeah I've written a bunch, you can just go on with your day if you don't want to read my opinions, that's also fine.

 

20 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

This link is for the range itself:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/21/redesigning-the-black-templars-how-the-team-updated-the-chapter-that-refuses-to-change/

This one is for Helbrecht on his own:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/20/helbrecht-returns-the-high-marshal-who-leads-his-crusades-from-the-front/

Ah ok, well thanks for the links, looks like I didn't miss the reveals - and I stand by the notion that they're still dominantly Mk X with barely any design cues from other Marks: more design cues from Black Templar-specific things but still distinctly Mk X.

 

18 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Yeah, aside from:
- the mk8 "sternguard" height of the gorget (and its chapter-specific prow shape)
- chapter-specific "sternguard" style helmets 
- mk6 style interconnected shin and knee plate (unlike those being separate pieces in mk10)

 

And probably some more. Those are not pure mk10 in any sense or fashion.

The Gorget is as much inspired by Mk X as 8, while the V-shape is pretty much unique to Black Templars.

The helmet is bespoke, yes, that's fair.

The shin plate is as much Mk X as it is Mk 6.

 

You're right, "Mk X all the way, in every sense" was oversimplified and incorrect. Let me rephrase: it's clearly Mk X with some very limited cues from Mk 6 and previous Black Templar-specific designs.

 

20 minutes ago, lansalt said:

If anything it's the opposite. Bladeguard came out of nowhere as DA-like generic marines that didn't fit the Ultramarines at all (and they have basically no lore), and the new DA Companions are a very obvious mix of 30k DA companions and knights cenobium with very specific fluff.

Because Bladeguard have tabards? That's all that's close to DA-inspired, and if anything that's far more Black Templar-esque than Dark Angels-esque, and even then they are still pretty generic (albeit more decorated than most Primaris).

Spoiler

 

8 minutes ago, matcap86 said:

I vote we rename this thread "One Frater's raging against the dying of the light". 

 

For what it's worth I do mostly agree with your dislike on some of the primaris aesthetics @Kallas. It's been getting better but the ankle bulbs and the kneepad trim keeps rubbing me the wrong way. I also hope they continue the trend with more variation in armour in the space marine range. Almost every primaris model in tacticus armour has pretty much the same backpack and mostly the same legs. I'm happy they're at least varying chest pieces, shoulder pads and helmets nowadays albeit mostly for specific chapters. 

I know there are plenty of folks annoyed by my persistence in not accepting this change in Marines and...well, I don't care really - it's as much my hobby as anyone else's, and I, like them, am free to express my opinions on what I like or dislike about things. So I guess they can just mute me if they really want to, that's fine.

 

If they actually incorporated more Marks into the Primaris range it really would do a lot to merge them instead of maintaining the split - everything released is aggressively Primaris. The reason why I brought it up for the Inner Circle Companions is because they are clearly meant to be those forgiven Fallen, and for such an important (sub)faction of the lore, having them discard all of the trappings of the past just feels wrong - it's an issue I have with much of the latest releases, but even more focused. Yes, we can come up with justifications in- and out-of-universe, but ultimately moving away from the older Marks of armour (especially for a Heresy-era (sub)faction) seems disrespectful (not the word I want to use, but I can't think of the one I want to use, so it'll have to do) to the past 30-40 (or 10,000) years of history.

[Kastor Krieg]

35 minutes ago, Kallas said:

The Gorget is as much inspired by Mk X as 8, while the V-shape is pretty much unique to Black Templars.

The helmet is bespoke, yes, that's fair.

The shin plate is as much Mk X as it is Mk 6.

 

You're right, "Mk X all the way, in every sense" was oversimplified and incorrect. Let me rephrase: it's clearly Mk X with some very limited cues from Mk 6 and previous Black Templar-specific designs.

Mk X gorget doesn't shield anywhere as high, it's a clear Mk 8 design cue. Helmet we've covered.

And the shin plate is not "as much X and 6", it's literally a uniquely Mk 6 greave with the Mk X ish protrusion added on top to make the design "primaris compliant".

So the Primaris SB armour is basically Mk6/Mk8 artificer, with added Mk X features. It's not a "MkX armour all the way, in every sense" anyway, which, well - QED.

[Blindhamster]

I'll never mute you man, I've muted some, but while your frustration and dissatisfaction is often evident, you're always courteous and well reasoned in your thoughts. We (clearly) don't agree on things, but I absolutely respect you and the way you voice things.

 

I think as we keep moving further and further from primaris launch, the term and distinction will continue to shrink, already the word primaris isn't used much in the new codex outside of some lore snippets, I don't think we'll move away from the mkX design as the mainstay of marines now, and some features will probably remain consistent to that, but others I think will gradually get more diverse again and there will be more nods to earlier mks again. e.g. I think stuff like the newer torso shape (with more defined "pecks" and better defined soft armour plus the abdomen armour are likely here to stay across the range, but stuff like arm and leg designs may well get tweaked, aquilla designs and size of gorgets may well change, backpacks too.

 

For me, the new companions are wonderful because I love the up-armoured bladeguard style gauntlets - they're a much nicer place to put some pretty chapter or veteran iconography, and I really like the new designed robes too. Similarly, I really like the new templar kits, they have a nice collection of details that make them look a bit more special and thats great. Interestingly, the arms on the templar kits are more like traditional mk7 arms than tacticus arms, as they lack the extra armour plating.

 

Edit

Also, the ankle ball socket things -thats a mk8 design feature rather than a unique mkX one too. Actually, if you look at mkX tacticus in general, its basically a larger suit of mk8, with a more detailed/segmented leg armour look to the rear + some extra armour on thighs (actually, mk8 has that too in a slightly different form) and forearms + a modified mk4 helmet and slightly more proportionate chest armour. Which is, why I liked it from the start, as noted mk4 & mk8 ftw :D

Edited December 29, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Kallas]

8 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

So the Primaris SB armour is basically Mk6/Mk8 artificer, with added Mk X features. It's not a "MkX armour all the way, in every sense" anyway, which, well - QED.

Yeah, I acknowledged that that was oversimplified, but I disagree that it's dominantly Mk6/8.

Spoiler

8 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

added Mk X features.

The backpack is Mk X

Spoiler

The shoulder pads are Mk X/Primaris design moreso than previous Marks

Spoiler

The gorget is absolutely not definitively Mk 8. The height of it is definitely higher than most Mk X, but is clearly of a design distinct from both X and 8.

Spoiler

The legs definitely have cues from 6, namely the single piece/lack of knee pad, but the leg design in general is far from dominantly Mk 6, considering the flared crest, circular socket armour, as well as the Mk X plate details (ie, the details on the thighs) and tassets (the hip plates) which are Mk X designs. (Though the tassets have been present on other Marks of armour, but they are always present on Mk X)

Spoiler

 

24 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I'll never mute you man, I've muted some, but while your frustration and dissatisfaction is often evident, you're always courteous and well reasoned in your thoughts. We (clearly) don't agree on things, but I absolutely respect you and the way you voice things.

I appreciate that, but I reckon I should just bow out of the thread at this point. Clearly I've upset enough folks and I'm just getting more annoyed myself.

I really hope you're right that they'll blend more Marks in in the future, but I have very little hope left for GW to do that kind of things, especially given how they blended them in with the Sternguard (ie, barely at all).

 

[Blindhamster]

probably a case of needing to adjust expectations, rather than faithfull mk whatever models, I'd expect the odd detail that is a nod to older mks or similar honestly (stuff like the one-piece knee and leg armour on a few models being a nod to mk6, or the lack of extra armour on arms being a nod to mk7 or helmets/shoulder pads being nods to various other mks or the rim-less knee pad on the limited ed emperors champion being very much mk7 in design, maybe even the odd backpack with a more traditional appearance). Probably not what you're wanting, and thats fair, bit it seems likely to be the most to expect/hope for in the forseeable future (till they make mk11 and replace the mkX with that and go even more different probably lol)

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

It was literally introduced across the galaxy in the span of 200 years to 97% of Chapters, and included a full range of power armour, weapons and vehicles. You can't get much more large scale.

 

I think you and others don't want to hear criticism of things you like, so I guess no-one is happy.

 

Your last sentence can be thrown right back at you; you haven't read enough lore if you think Cawl created all of it whole cloth, so your random screaming into the dark about how all this innovation happened just rings hollow.

Just feels like "Things changed and I don't like it, therefore it's automatically bad."  Just as circuitous.

[Kallas]

21 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

if you think Cawl created all of it whole cloth

I know there's some nuance to it, but that is the summary of it.

 

21 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Just feels like "Things changed and I don't like it, therefore it's automatically bad."  Just as circuitous.

I mean, yeah, things changed in a way that I feel like is bad. Strangely enough, I don't think that was good!

[Scribe]

43 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Your last sentence can be thrown right back at you; you haven't read enough lore if you think Cawl created all of it whole cloth, so your random screaming into the dark about how all this innovation happened just rings hollow.

 

I'm sure you can admit that regardless of how it was written, its a fundamental shift in the setting. There is pre-Cawl, and post-Cawl.

[Syphid]

Bot impressed. Do Dark Angels really need another melee infantry unit with swords?

[Blindhamster]

56 minutes ago, Syphid said:

Bot impressed. Do Dark Angels really need another melee infantry unit with swords?

Did they already have their own unique one?

[Mike8404]

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Syphid said:

Bot impressed. Do Dark Angels really need another melee infantry unit with swords?

Isn't this technically their first dedicated melee unit with swords since DWK just got that option this edition and aren't released yet?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mike8404
Spelling

[Interrogator Stobz]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

I mean, yeah, things changed in a way that I feel like is bad. Strangely enough, I don't think that was good!

Great discussion Brother, nice to read from others who share the same opinions on the lore changes.

An important point to consider is that you don't need to justify any of it to anyone. Especially when they try to 'prove' your opinions are somehow wrong, or lesser, or "screaming in the dark", or falsely expanding what you said to hating all new stuff.

Their views are fine, but they're not the real thing

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

I mean, yeah, things changed in a way that I feel like is bad. Strangely enough, I don't think that was good!

We know. You've told us. Ad nauseum.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Reading some of the newer books gives a better perspective of the change to Primaris and how they are basically inductii 2.0 stuff like that made me appreciate them more but GW def needs to poop or get off the pot, trying to cling to parts of the lore that are contradictory when the setting is clearly changing is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Like templars incorporating parts of their old armour... How the hell does that work, do they melt it down? Is it just the honour badges and how the heck are they still wearing their old helmets now that they've grown a whole bloody foot it would be like finding your old bike helmet as a kid and trying to put it on as a grown adult. They are just no longer physically compatible with their old armour so why even try to imply it's somehow still in service.

 

The weapons are another it's like you are telling me this great big huge power sword that's taller than a chaos marine is the same one Azreal has been using this whole time? Ok maybe Azreal is a bad example but Uriel Ventris, High Marshal Helbrecht there's just no way those are the same swords. and even the regular joe power swords if you put those on a heresy marine they'd look like they are doing thier best Guts impression by wielding it and back to Ventris isn't that giant thing supposed to be the same sword Remus Ventanus used? lol