Lost Command squad and loss of mixed Deathwing Squad.

[Harleqvin]

Anyone have some thoughts on why GW removed the Deathwing Command Squad, and removed the mixed melee/ranged aspect of the Deathwing TDA Squad?

 

I mean I’m quite annoyed with both of these issues.

Our mixed weapon squad was a pretty unique option for like 8 editions (2nd-9th? I know definitely 3rd-9th.)

 

it was really cool we had the TDA command squad. 
 

I just don’t see a good reason to get rid of the squad, and the option to the one squad.

[Karhedron]

The Ravenwing command squad survives because it is a current kit. The Deathwing one has gone extinct because the new Terminator Kits do not include command squad parts. No models = no rules. I suspect the RWCS is on borrowed time and will be phased out whenever Ravenwing and bikes get revamped.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't know how permanently gone the Deathwing Command Squad is. I can easily see it coming back for Space Marines in general, as any 1st company should be able to equip their command squad with Terminator armor.

 

We've seen multiple things go to legends, then come back, maybe go back again (captain on bike, Chaplain on bike, possibly CSM jump pack lord, etc.)

 

What is and isn't a datasheet now is essentially directly tied to the current model offering, where if they don't offer it in the here and now, it'll go to legends, even if they intend a new kit in like 2 years time. The way I see it is they're directly tethered to the current model state of the game, with absolutely no bearing on intent or anything in the future.

Edited January 20 by WrathOfTheLion

[Tacitus]

I'm kind of hoping they figure out a Kit + Upgrade = model paradigm going forwards.  You want a Lieutenant of the Ravenwing?  Use one Outrider kit, and Parts 2, 3, 17, 18, and 35 of the Dark Angels Upgrade Sprue.  You want a UM Gravis Lieutenant?  Use an Aggressor or Heavy Intercessor Body with parts 7, 8, 21, 22, and 37 of the Ultramarine Upgrade Sprue. 

[SvenONE]

There's a lot about some of these changes that are pretty... curious to say the least. Most of it I think simply boils down to: No kit = no rules.  But I would say that GW is in something of an awkward position. The index release actually seems more interesting and flexible than the codex.

 

While these new detachments and rules seem like an effort to capitalize and capture different playstyles, they seem to work against everyone's collection. Being hit in the hobby pants isn't fun. This round of updates combined the with all of the Legends entries, has left this faction looking very different than it did 12 months ago. I get GW wants to get rid of the old scale, but talk about ripping the bandaid off!

 

Mixed DW terminators, command squad, strikemaster, apothecary, champion, DWK nerfs (and capped at only 5! I have 20 painted!). I'd never actually sell my collection, but a lot of my closet seems like it will decrease in personal value by more than I would like it to! I want to see maybe a little more clarity about how conferring DW keyword is to terminator units. I suppose I could use my LC or TH/SS terminators as an Assault Squad, but if they gain the Deathwing ability to get their +1 hit. But we lost flavor in the process.

 

Suffice it to say, I was eyeing the DWA box, but now I'm just going to wait for Belial and Codex to release on their own.

[Harleqvin]

Yeah. I think it was just dumb them getting rid of the command squad, and the mixed weapons option of the Dw tda squad.

 

They really should have just made three upgrade sprues, and sold individually. 

One for Deathwing to allow for command squad, strikemaster, plasmacannon, and mixed weapons options.

One for Ravenwing to make regular outriders into ravenwing, command squad, or black knights. Turn a new a newer speeder into a Talonmaster. (Pretty much a “primaris” version of the old ravenwing upgrade sprue.)

One for Greenwing.

 

instead we got the crap one they are giving us, & taken away units, and unit options from us.

 

they also could have just made a rites thing again but added a way to upgrade a chaplain to an Int-Chap, so they could be Deathwing as per the lore.

 

 

Edited January 20 by Harleqvin

[Harleqvin]

12 minutes ago, SvenONE said:

There's a lot about some of these changes that are pretty... curious to say the least. Most of it I think simply boils down to: No kit = no rules.  But I would say that GW is in something of an awkward position. The index release actually seems more interesting and flexible than the codex.

 

While these new detachments and rules seem like an effort to capitalize and capture different playstyles, they seem to work against everyone's collection. Being hit in the hobby pants isn't fun. This round of updates combined the with all of the Legends entries, has left this faction looking very different than it did 12 months ago. I get GW wants to get rid of the old scale, but talk about ripping the bandaid off!

 

Mixed DW terminators, command squad, strikemaster, apothecary, champion, DWK nerfs (and capped at only 5! I have 20 painted!). I'd never actually sell my collection, but a lot of my closet seems like it will decrease in personal value by more than I would like it to! I want to see maybe a little more clarity about how conferring DW keyword is to terminator units. I suppose I could use my LC or TH/SS terminators as an Assault Squad, but if they gain the Deathwing ability to get their +1 hit. But we lost flavor in the process.

 

Suffice it to say, I was eyeing the DWA box, but now I'm just going to wait for Belial and Codex to release on their own.

Yeah. I feel ya. Personally still going to get the box, as I want all the newer sized tda so I can have some height variation with my other TDA, go with aspect from different novels throughout 40K of there being size/height differences with the marines. But besides asmodai, and maybe the 40K companions, this will highly likely be the only GW miniatures purchases I make this year.

[crimsondave]

At least the video Valrak put out makes it sound like there is some cool lore coming out.  When/if I play, I'm just using the index datasheets for stuff they deleted.  Also Lion's because I want to.

[Helias_Tancred]

Very very disappointed for what GW did to the Dark Angels rules-wise!

 

Wanting to end the pattern of codex creep is most worthy, while heavily nerfing factions that don't need it (at all) is ridiculous. It tells me they don't have the competence to do the former. I'm back to 0 faith in GW to do the faction rules right. They're still inconsistent and of very questionable decision-making ability. 

 

Edited January 20 by Helias_Tancred

[Interrogator Stobz]

Lolz, my BnC title is about to become redundant. 

Well, at least GeeDub are consistent. 

[Lion El Jason]

Yeah, there's something comforting about being the worst codex in 40k.  Dark Angels have been there more than any other faction, it feels like home.

 

The fact that they fumbled the lore and literally made all bad decisions just seems natural.  As things always have been.

[Cenobite Terminator]

I was hoping for more regarding the Ravenwing.

[NTaW]

I knew it wouldn't happen but I was hoping the current kit wouldn't get the axe. They're great looking models even if they don't match the current scale. I still plan to use my 10-model Command Squad and perhaps the Strikemaster with the Index sheets since I'm also using Legends Mortis Dreadnoughts. No tournaments in my future and I doubt my 36-model 2k list will be game breaking good.

[Harleqvin]

9 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Lolz, my BnC title is about to become redundant. 

Well, at least GeeDub are consistent. 

Oooooo

[Harleqvin]

7 hours ago, NTaW said:

I knew it wouldn't happen but I was hoping the current kit wouldn't get the axe. They're great looking models even if they don't match the current scale. I still plan to use my 10-model Command Squad and perhaps the Strikemaster with the Index sheets since I'm also using Legends Mortis Dreadnoughts. No tournaments in my future and I doubt my 36-model 2k list will be game breaking good.

Nothing truly stopping you from using index stuff (except tourney, but doesn’t sound like you d a lot of tourney.)

 

I feel the same. Probably will just do casual mostly, using index parts with pals and others who are cool with it. Not sure if I will do much tourney/event-wise.

Edited January 21 by Harleqvin

[Helias_Tancred]

Thats what I was thinking ... if you generally play with a small group of friends just ask then if they're cool with you playing with index DA? Not a perfect solution but its an end run around the garbage that leaked.

 

 

[jimbo1701]

It does seem like the move into the era primaris has really hurt dark angels. The new book is inferior in terms of unique units compared to the past several editions. Only the lion and companions are saving graces. 
 

Just have to hope that an equal sized wave hits with 11th Ed but this time focuses on some more characters and ravenwing. 

[Tacitus]

I'm less impressed with the Lion and especially the ICC - The Lion isn't bad but he hasn't change much other than catching a couple nerfs.  The ICC are completely unimpressive.  They're a one trick Azrael Pony.  The Deathwing also went somewhat down but I think the Ravenwing are in an interesting spot, especially if they go back and fix a couple Whoopsies. 

[Blindhamster]

Tbh, I think terminator and bike command squads will become a core marine thing, and rightly so, it doesn’t make sense for either to be unique to dark angels.

 

overall, I actually think they did a good job with dark angels in that none of the options feel obviously straight up better than core marine units, just different. Some of it is disappointing as dark angels have enjoyed some of the more powerful unique units for a long long time, and couple that with the current leaked points feeling off. But I’m going to hold out hope that a points update drops and actually those few things that need it get a little drop in points.

[Lion El Jason]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:31 AM, Blindhamster said:

Tbh, I think terminator and bike command squads will become a core marine thing, and rightly so, it doesn’t make sense for either to be unique to dark angels.

 

No other chapters field formations of these.  
Even White Scars only have the same bikers in the same formations as Ultramarines, so why would they have a company based command squad (There is one per Company).

Though with the Deathwing Lore ruined by power armoured marines, maybe they don't need one anymore.

[Tokugawa]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:31 PM, Blindhamster said:

Tbh, I think terminator and bike command squads will become a core marine thing, and rightly so, it doesn’t make sense for either to be unique to dark angels.

 

overall, I actually think they did a good job with dark angels in that none of the options feel obviously straight up better than core marine units, just different. Some of it is disappointing as dark angels have enjoyed some of the more powerful unique units for a long long time, and couple that with the current leaked points feeling off. But I’m going to hold out hope that a points update drops and actually those few things that need it get a little drop in points.

Core marine don't have command squad of any form now. Company heroes is not exactly "command squad".

[Balthamal]

For what it's worth, the DWCS/DWK kit is back in stock on the GW site so who knows what's going to be happening

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Balthamal said:

For what it's worth, the DWCS/DWK kit is back in stock on the GW site so who knows what's going to be happening

 

Maybe trying to shift the last stock before it becomes obsolete. I seriously doubt they will retroactively put it back into the Codex.

 

Still, there is always Legends for non tournament play.

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

Maybe trying to shift the last stock before it becomes obsolete. I seriously doubt they will retroactively put it back into the Codex.

 

Still, there is always Legends for non tournament play.

It's much more likely a 'Terminator Company Heroes' sort of thing will be added to the general Space Marine line, in my opinion.

[Blindhamster]

12 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Core marine don't have command squad of any form now. Company heroes is not exactly "command squad".

yeah I think we'll see company heroes in terminator armour and company heroes on bikes eventually. Maybe even jump company heroes lol. Gotta catch em all