HH2 No Gods, No Masters: Blackshield Tactica

[Dagoth Ur]

I hope it is fine to open this thread; I figured I'd take the initiative since none of the mods have made one. If not, feel free to delete it.

 

So yeah, the Beta Garmon book is slowly arriving in people's mailboxes and I figured we might as well discuss future projects and ideas. What Oaths are people looking at in terms of options? I definitely want to build a force of the Fangs of the Emperor and I'm thinking about going for either Panoply of Old (World Eaters) + The Broken Helix (Aberrants) to represent the rapidly induced and broken creatures Harr would funnel into the siege, or go for either of the two Oaths but with Only in Death does Duty end (feels rather fluffy).

 

Still a bit a bit mad that we cannot take Rites of War; feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.

 

What're people planning on doing? Any fun interactions you noticed?

Edited April 10 by Dagoth Ur

[HeinzD]

Im actually kind of disappointed with the new blackshields, only being restricted to normal Legion units and not having any special units themself, like in 1st edition.

That being said, i think you can do some fun and also some good stuff with them. 

Having multiple oaths that deny the opponent VP for killing your units, in addition to doing other good stuff, like the one that lets you cheat leadership test, seems pretty damn good.

Personally i would just run the abberants with lots of charnable tabars on despoilers and such, sounds like some fun instant deathing marines on the charge, on initative with a fairly good chance of getting ap2. At least in zone mortalis is where i think clones/abberants will shine, not being able to react and -1 BS will hurt, especially in bigger games. 

[The Scorpion]

6 hours ago, HeinzD said:

Im actually kind of disappointed with the new blackshields, only being restricted to normal Legion units and not having any special units themself, like in 1st edition.

That being said, i think you can do some fun and also some good stuff with them. 

Having multiple oaths that deny the opponent VP for killing your units, in addition to doing other good stuff, like the one that lets you cheat leadership test, seems pretty damn good.

Personally i would just run the abberants with lots of charnable tabars on despoilers and such, sounds like some fun instant deathing marines on the charge, on initative with a fairly good chance of getting ap2. At least in zone mortalis is where i think clones/abberants will shine, not being able to react and -1 BS will hurt, especially in bigger games. 

The 'clones' are a bit less affected, since they get -1 initiative for their 5+++, instead of a reduction in WS/BS like the 'aberrants' do.

[Slips]

The idea of running a no-HQ vet-only army is appealing to me esp when all the Vet Sgts in those squads would jump up to 3W and get +1 in a stat you specialize the squad in. Vets being WS5 does mean you can get a WS6 3W vet sgt which could be something.

 

The +50pts to give a vet squad Heart and Fury of the legion sounds great but Fury only works on regular bolters so no double-tapping Nemesis-Bolters meaning only Heart of the Legion is really useful when accompanied by an Apoth for a 4+ FNP vet squad on objectives.

 

Another benefit being more elite slots.

 

Main downside is still being 3+ T4 so rather easily deletable by S8+ and/or Ap3 and lower

Edited April 10 by Slips

[HeinzD]

Id like to point out how incredibly good Endryd Haar is, he is incredibly hard to take down with his T5 plus battle hardend 1, especially if you take an oath that gives you a 5+ fnp, he will tank so much stuff. Basically having a thunderhammer, aka. a very good meele weapon and preator stats makes him very potent in combat.

Also, his warlord trait is very good, since scout applies to dedicated transports, allowing you to potentially charge with some unit or bringing a squad meltaguns in range as early as turn 1. 

 

After doing some thinking, the veteran oath (pay 50pts and so on) + and the clones oath seems very good together. 

Clones is overall very solid, not being able to react hurts, the -1 on initative is annoying, but hey, unwieldy weapons are great anyway. The immunity to being pinned and the fnp is fantastic and definitly makes up for the negatives, also, not letting your opponent score on kills is fantastic. 

Upgrading the veterans is kinda expansive, but playing 10 man squads of veterans that get a 5+fnp and heart of the legion and line sounds pretty good.

[Heir of Sigismund]

One thing that’s been pointed out to me is the oaths won’t apply to Endryd as he is a unique character.

Would have made him broken.

[HeinzD]

7 hours ago, Heir of Sigismund said:

One thing that’s been pointed out to me is the oaths won’t apply to Endryd as he is a unique character.

Would have made him broken.

Okay, must have skipped over that while reading, thats good to know, it felt very wrong anyway, thank you for correcting me. 

And yes, he would be kinda broken, lol, but he is still very good and that at a very affordable price tag, could definitly see him costing 200pts or something , but thats the advantage of not having 4 wounds, i suppose

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Also, in 'The Broken Helix', the stat alterations and / or damage mitigation changes ONLY apply to non-character models, so your unit sergeants for example are exempt, they seem to be regular old school Legionnaires leading the cloned / altered host.

 

I think this is pretty important to note, since a lot of people were boasting about how 'monstrous' their strength 6 thunder hammer sergeants were ...  

[Carnivore]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:19 AM, Unknown Legionnaire said:

Also, in 'The Broken Helix', the stat alterations and / or damage mitigation changes ONLY apply to non-character models, so your unit sergeants for example are exempt, they seem to be regular old school Legionnaires leading the cloned / altered host.

 

I think this is pretty important to note, since a lot of people were boasting about how 'monstrous' their strength 6 thunder hammer sergeants were ...  

I don’t mean to be obtuse or question you personally Unknown Legionnaire - you have been right far more often than me on here - but do the character models really get zero strength boost/damage mitigation from the Aberrant option? I’m stunned. What incentive is there if the guys who will be fighting most of your challenges and swinging on the harder targets are no stronger or tougher than baseline Astartes, but still worse in BS and LD?

[Dagoth Ur]

17 minutes ago, Carnivore said:

I don’t mean to be obtuse or question you personally Unknown Legionnaire - you have been right far more often than me on here - but do the character models really get zero strength boost/damage mitigation from the Aberrant option? I’m stunned. What incentive is there if the guys who will be fighting most of your challenges and swinging on the harder targets are no stronger or tougher than baseline Astartes, but still worse in BS and LD?

Unfortunately he is right. Both Clone and Aberrant rule specify that they only apply to models that have the relevant rule AND "do not also have the Character-unit sub-type". Its quite a bit of a shame as what it means is that it does not apply to sergeants or HQs etc.

 

I've been slowly toying with the xeno armory one. Being able to spam Xeno Deathlocks on terminators, support squads and even recon units seems fun, if potentially suicidal for the unit. Hell, terminators can take both the Deathlock and Halo blade. I'm just currently pondering what to combine it with. Maybe the veteran-focused one, that could be kinda fun if pricy.

[Carnivore]

3 hours ago, Dagoth Ur said:

Unfortunately he is right. Both Clone and Aberrant rule specify that they only apply to models that have the relevant rule AND "do not also have the Character-unit sub-type". Its quite a bit of a shame as what it means is that it does not apply to sergeants or HQs etc.

 

I've been slowly toying with the xeno armory one. Being able to spam Xeno Deathlocks on terminators, support squads and even recon units seems fun, if potentially suicidal for the unit. Hell, terminators can take both the Deathlock and Halo blade. I'm just currently pondering what to combine it with. Maybe the veteran-focused one, that could be kinda fun if pricy.

Well that is just… dumb. I’m sorry, that is terrible rule-structuring. The fact that your characters get zero benefit completely renders that Broken Helix oath bottom-tier crunchwise and utterly useless fluffwise in my opinion. I know we Blackshields have far less about which to complain than the Shattered Legions players have to legitimately gripe about, but man that is a blow to my excitement to restart my Chymeric Proto-Carcharodons Blackshields.

 

Dagoth, I do like your idea for the xenos armory/veteran force. I think there is a lot of cool potential there in terms of storytelling, and a lot of good bitz for conversions.

 

Side note, and this is a small and inconsequential one in terms of tactics, but did anyone else find it strange that they did not update Endryd Haar’s base strength stat to 5? I know the S12 halved number of attacks renders it a functionally moot point in terms of on the table, but given the existence of numerous S5 characters (Alexis Polux, Tsolmon Khan, etc.) with far less exposition in the books than Haar had on how monstrously strong they are compared to other Astartes, I assumed it was an oversight in HH 1.0 that would be updated to reflect that in his base stats. Again, merely a fluff-based consistency criticism, but if I’m the only one who found it odd please ignore this whole rant.

[Razorblade]

10 hours ago, Carnivore said:

Well that is just… dumb. I’m sorry, that is terrible rule-structuring. The fact that your characters get zero benefit completely renders that Broken Helix oath bottom-tier crunchwise and utterly useless fluffwise in my opinion. I know we Blackshields have far less about which to complain than the Shattered Legions players have to legitimately gripe about, but man that is a blow to my excitement to restart my Chymeric Proto-Carcharodons Blackshields.

I'd say the opposite is true. The fact that characters are unaffected let's you largely bypass the otherwise crippling ld debuffs.

Lore-wise I think this is meant to represent conventional veteran astartes leading the hordes of chymeric inductii 

[Dagoth Ur]

1 hour ago, Razorblade said:

I'd say the opposite is true. The fact that characters are unaffected let's you largely bypass the otherwise crippling ld debuffs.

Lore-wise I think this is meant to represent conventional veteran astartes leading the hordes of chymeric inductii 

See I'd agree in principle, but I also think @Carnivorehas a point when he says that the Oath kind of winds up doing...nothing for Characters, which does suck a bit considering we don't have an armory of our own (unless we pick an oath) and have no access to RoWs.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

1 hour ago, Razorblade said:

I'd say the opposite is true. The fact that characters are unaffected let's you largely bypass the otherwise crippling ld debuffs.

Lore-wise I think this is meant to represent conventional veteran astartes leading the hordes of chymeric inductii 

 

Yes, and it's also nudging you in the direction to combine 'The Broken Helix' with 'In Disgrace All Are Equal', to accentuate the fact even more, that you've got some seriously hardy survivors lead the new batch consisting of clones or aberrants.

[fastroper]

Blackshields were by far my favorite HH 1.0 army.  I had a large collection and loved playing them.  My base list (included below) was very fun.  I ran Chymeriae and, after learning the rules and the changes in HH 2.0, I didn’t expect to see a replication of the old Book 6 rules. I haven’t played HH 2.0 b/c I was waiting for the Blackshields rules to come out.  I was worried that much of my WYSIWYG models would become unworkable. 

 

I think I am going to see if the new oaths can get me a somewhat close proxy to my old list in terms of weapons and S/T.  The Legacy of Nikea giving Biomancy could (somewhat) replicate the S/T buffs of Chymeriae.  Panoply of the Old could unlock chainaxes or cyber-familiars.  Sadly, there isn’t a good solve the war gear I built onto my models for HH 1.0

 

Glad to see Blackshields are still a thing in HH rules.
 

 

 

Blackshield (Drop Base)

Legiones Astartes

2,499

 

Blackshield Reaver Lord 255

artificer armour, power fist (master-crafted), lightning claw, digital lasers, Cyber-familiar, rad grenades, iron halo

 

Chaplain 130

artificer armour, melta bombs, refractor field, jump pack

 

Tactical Support Squad 175

Tactical Support Sergeant (artificer armour, melta bombs), 8 Tactical Support Marines, Pariah flamers

 

Blackshield Marauders 340

Marauder Chief (power fist, Legiones Astartes shotgun), 17 Marauders, chainaxes, 13× Legiones Astartes shotgun, 3× Pariah flamer

 

Assault Squad 419

Assault Sergeant (artificer armour, power weapon), 17 Assault Space Marines, 3× power weapon, melta bombs

 

Terminator Squad 255

Terminator Sergeant (combi-weapon, chainfist), 4 Terminators, 4× combi-weapon (plasma), power fist, 3× chainfist

• Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod 115

 

Apothecarion Detachment

• Apothecary 65

artificer armour, power sword

• Apothecary 60

jump pack

 

Terminator Squad 255

Terminator Sergeant (combi-weapon, chainfist), 4 Terminators, 4× combi-weapon (plasma), power fist, 3× chainfist

• Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod 115

 

Terrax Pattern Termite Assault Drill 80

2× twin-linked bolter

 

Kharybdis Assault Claw 235

 

Force Organisation Chart

Crusade

 

Legiones Astartes

Blackshields

 

Wrought by War

Chymeriae

[thenemeanreaver]

I feel like Seeker squads with Xenos Deathlocks could be really funny, if an expensive and fragile unit.

 

I'm trying to decide how I want to run my warband for this edition, I'm really tempted to try the "Oops No Characters or Troops Oaths", but I played a test game the other day with a Cataphractii Delegatus and his Termie command squad with the Forgotten Hero warlord trait. That bonus to strength and weapon skill is certainly nothing to shake a stick at.

 

How do y'all feel about the Panoply of Old (x) oath? I've seen some arguments online what counts as eligible wargear and what doesn't (e.g. NL Prey Sight, EC Surgical Augments) but my local group is of the mind as long as you aren't trying to power game it, it's fine.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

3 hours ago, thenemeanreaver said:

How do y'all feel about the Panoply of Old (x) oath? I've seen some arguments online what counts as eligible wargear and what doesn't (e.g. NL Prey Sight, EC Surgical Augments) but my local group is of the mind as long as you aren't trying to power game it, it's fine.

 

'Panoply of Old' is underrated in my opinion, there's a lot of neat combo possibilites with wargear / weapons plus the second Oath you select for the detachment. I really like it.

 

Also, I think the 'argument what counts as eligible wargear' is pretty moot, they tell you precisely what you can and cannot take, but like you said, if necessary clear it with your group first of course. People I know interpreted it all the same, so no issues there.

[thenemeanreaver]

1 hour ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

 

'Panoply of Old' is underrated in my opinion, there's a lot of neat combo possibilites with wargear / weapons plus the second Oath you select for the detachment. I really like it.

 

What is your 1st choice of Legion to steal from?

[Dagoth Ur]

3 hours ago, thenemeanreaver said:

What is your 1st choice of Legion to steal from?

It sort of depends where you draw the line between Wargear and Options but World Eaters are pretty solid (Chainaxes) and Imperial Fists (Solarite Powerfists, Terminator Shields and Deepstriking).

[XiaphasJurr]

Most of you seem to agree that Blackshields aren't allowed to take ROWs. In the Book it says:

 

"Such a Detachment has the ‘Blackshields’ Faction and is selected as normal using the Legiones Astartes army list, but may not use any Rites of War or any units that require a specific version of the Legiones Astartes (X) special rule other than Legiones Astartes (Blackshields)."

 

I was under the impression that this only refers to ROWs for specific legions but generic ROWs are unaffected. 

Am I missing something or is this formulation just unclear?

[thenemeanreaver]

1 hour ago, XiaphasJurr said:

Most of you seem to agree that Blackshields aren't allowed to take ROWs. In the Book it says:

 

"Such a Detachment has the ‘Blackshields’ Faction and is selected as normal using the Legiones Astartes army list, but may not use any Rites of War or any units that require a specific version of the Legiones Astartes (X) special rule other than Legiones Astartes (Blackshields)."

 

I was under the impression that this only refers to ROWs for specific legions but generic ROWs are unaffected. 

Am I missing something or is this formulation just unclear?

In the Legion Trait section found on page 131 physical and 151 digitally (Lmao), there is the rule "A Terrible Purpose" that then states "A detachment with the Blackshields faction may not use Rites of War". It's kinda strange that they felt the need to clarify that they can't use legion rites of wars and then clarify "we also mean no rites at all", but that's Jimmy Workshop rules writing for you.

[thenemeanreaver]

2 hours ago, Dagoth Ur said:

It sort of depends where you draw the line between Wargear and Options but World Eaters are pretty solid (Chainaxes) and Imperial Fists (Solarite Powerfists, Terminator Shields and Deepstriking).

Tbh, I do not think selecting Panoply of Old (World Eaters) gets you chainaxes, because the ability to swap chainswords for chainaxes is something you get for having LA (World Eaters). The wording for Panoply says you may select unique wargear, but not legion rites, consul upgrades, praetor upgrades or other options available to that variant of LA (I could just be very stupid, however, so if someone better at reading rules can correct me, I welcome that). Tbh, chainaxes really aren't so strong that most people probably wouldn't let you take them as part of panoply anyway.

 

I think you would also not be able to select the IF deepstriking, but Panoply (IF) is very good because of the gauntlet, power fist, and assault cannon (and the ferromag, to a much lesser extent lol)

Edited April 21 by thenemeanreaver
Breaking up run on sentences

[MoriyaSchism]

I was looking at the Weapons of Desperation oath and I'm a bit confused about the wording. The footnote for the oath says:

*Note that this exchange takes place after any options are selected from a unit's army list profile - for example, allowing models from a Legion Veteran Squad to first upgrade a bolter to a plasma gun before any remaining bolters must be exchanged for other weapons. However, a model with this Oath that has been given a bayonet or chain bayonet may not then exchange their bolter for an autopistol or laspistol.

 

Does this mean I can just give most of the unit bayonets and have them keep their bolters while equipping every third member of the unit with a heavy stubber? 

[thenemeanreaver]

28 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Does this mean I can just give most of the unit bayonets and have them keep their bolters while equipping every third member of the unit with a heavy stubber? 

Correct.

 

[Dagoth Ur]

51 minutes ago, thenemeanreaver said:

Tbh, I do not think selecting Panoply of Old (World Eaters) gets you chainaxes, because the ability to swap chainswords for chainaxes is something you get for having LA (World Eaters). The wording for Panoply says you may select unique wargear, but not legion rites, consul upgrades, praetor upgrades or other options available to that variant of LA (I could just be very stupid, however, so if someone better at reading rules can correct me, I welcome that). Tbh, chainaxes really aren't so strong that most people probably wouldn't let you take them as part of panoply anyway.

 

I think you would also not be able to select the IF deepstriking, but Panoply (IF) is very good because of the gauntlet, power fist, and assault cannon (and the ferromag, to a much lesser extent lol)

See I'm fairly certain (I'd have to check after work) that all legion unique wargear and options require you to have the respective LA(x) rule to be able to use them (Caedere Weapons for example). Panoply of Old, at least the way I'm reading it essentially allows you to treat your Blackshields as if they had that LA for the purposes of gaining wargear ("gain access to unique wargear available to models with the Legiones Astartes (x) special rule variant noted as part of this oath.").

 

But as I said, I'd have to check. Besides, I feel like if it genuinely constrained itself that much in terms of what you can take then it's sort of a pretty dud option.