Index: Emperor's Children (now availiable)

[Cpt.Danjou]

To the mods. Is it time to open up a sub-forum in the Chaos section for Emperor's Children? Where we can start to talk about the Slaanesh and The Emperor's Children in more general terms.

 

Cpt.Danjou

[Nephaston]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

An "Exalted" unit of some kind (I'd guess "Legionnaires merged with a Daemonettes" but that might be straying too close to forbidden territory...)

Or mini fulgrims, as in snake bodies instead of legs, sword and whip, kinda covering the the possessed niche and the expert duelist niche.

[tinpact]

Well, AoS has the Twinsouls/Painbringers to look at, although I'm not sure how that translates to space marines.

[LSM]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

Noise Marines and Kakophoni are the same thing, but not all EC are Noise Marines. The Fabius Bile trilogy covers this pretty well. NM are a separate cult within the EC who are devoted to the “Song of Slaanesh” and attempt to recreate this “song” through their sonic weapons, and sonic implants.

 

That is how it's currently come to be portrayed, in recent Black Library novels. A weirdly serene, above-it-all, in-group.

 

If the model team ignores all that, though, and decides to make an Emperor's Children release "the Noise Marine army" (in the same way that the other three [Cult Legions] have been implemented as "the [Cult Troop] army"), then the fiction editors can't run in and veto it. The fiction will just change (back).

 

(Not saying that's what will happen, but just stressing that GW doesn't really respect its own canon.)

 

//

 

I mentioned elsewhere, but I really think the concept of Noise Marines have been (hopefully not) irrevocably hurt by a lack of models. Like, looking at it:

• 1991: the original Emperor's Children Marine (at least once labelled as a Noise Marine) with speaker faces, studded leather, etc.
• 1991: the original Noise Marine comes out alongside the D-Rok album Oblivion (which includes the song Noise Marines). It's a gimmicky (and awesome) Slaanesh marine with a guitar. 
• 1996: a Noise Marine release consisting of three bodies, three heads, a backpack, a Sonic Blaster, a Blastmaster, a Power Claw arm, and a Chainsword arm.
• 2002: an Emperor's Children Lord (with combat drugs, studs, speaker faces, face speaker, and one heck of a Doom Siren).
• 2002: an upgrade kit with: three heads, one torso, one Power Weapon arm, one Doom Siren, one Sonic Blaster, one Blastmaster.
• 2013: FW's resin Kakophoni for 30k (who are mainly wearing fancy-but-standard MkIV, with tabards, a cool gun design, and five super-cool heads.)
• 2019: a remake of the 1991 Noise Marine.

 

And like, that's it. You haven't been able to buy Noise Marines that look like their artwork in twenty years. Is it any wonder that Emperor's Children players drifted away from them?

 

//

 

In verifying a couple of those years, I stumbled upon a couple unreleased c2002 (I assume) Emperor's Children models, and now I'm a mix of grumpy (that they never came out) and happy (hope for the future).

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by LSM

[irlLordy]

If they go down the noise marines as elites route, I bet the basic EC troops will be called Hedonites or something like that, GW does like reusing names across systems. Suspect they would be more melee focussed than basic legionaries, but not as rush forward in your face as beserkers. Maybe have options for whips and power weapons, a bit more refined than chain axes.

[Cpt.Danjou]

I don't think Noise Marines will be an "elite" choice as it is the unit that defines Emperor's Children. De will become just like Plague Marines and Khorne Zerkers ordinary battleline. Hedonites is probably the name of the cultists, if they become a special unit. The cultists might also be named Roaring blades as it is/was the name of their "human troops" who followed them into damnation. (the pre-heresy name of the infantry unit name was "Righteous Blades")

 

Cpt.Danjou

Edited April 27 by Cpt.Danjou
Write whole sentences would be good!

[LSM]

1 hour ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

I don't think Noise Marines will be an "elite" choice as it is the unit that defines Emperor's Children. De will become just like Plague Marines and Khorne Zerkers ordinary battleline.

 

That's the debate (or, I guess less of a debate, and more of a quandary).

 

Will the dev team go for an early-codex style release, where Noise Marines were a large diverse group, of which "most" Emperor's Children had become.

 

Or will they go for the modern Black Library style, where Noise Marines are a small niche group, while most of the Emperor's Children have stayed Legionaries.

 

(Arguably the Thousand Sons are kind of like the latter, with Rubric Marines being a single unit, and the rest of the army being more Sorcerer based. But that's consistent with their portrayal since the Rubric was introduced in 2nd edition. Once the concept of Emperor's Children being Noise Marines was introduced - also in 2nd edition - Noise Marines expanded to encompass every Slaanesh marked thing before contracting back to a single unit.)

[sitnam]

22 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Sadly, I think Cult specific Dreadnaughts/Helbrutes aren't ever happening (otherwise we'd have our Psyker dred by now...)

 

Have there been any lore examples of psyker TS Dreds post-Rubric? I know it's a popular want but I can't recall it ever being a thing in 40k. A Rubric dread makes more sense imo

Edited April 27 by sitnam

[Noserenda]

Ooh yeah i like the idea of a Rubric dread, psyker dreadnoughts always struck me as an insane idea in universe, great for the KSons in the Heresy who love a bit of Hubris but in 40k you have an ability like psychic powers that requires an absolute iron will at all times to not go catastrophically wrong and a tech like dreadnoughts that famously makes the users go a bit do lally, if not fully senile/insane and you want to combine the two? :D 

[LSM]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:18 AM, TheMawr said:

 

Who now ?  :p

 

But yeah I really dont think expecting deathguard level is warranted here... the rumor may say massiver range refresh, but the source uses those words a little bit too liberal ;)

 

I think the same formula as this initially (ignore the grayscale placeholders):

 

 

The first 5 being the core design formula, yes world eaters terminators are missing, but I think thats a case of just being held back for the moment.

 

So Fulgrim, Lucius, Noise marines and some kind of terminator unit. Also the 3-man "exalted" squad.. I find interesting that they are in a way remniscent to their primarch/champion.. so they are probably some kind of grotesque duelists for EC.

 

The 2 others where maybe not in the core design formula ( because for TS it was just an upgrade sprue for tzaangor ) but could have been something planned for all 4 during 8th.

The characters ( for TS and WE ) are both combining Marine and Cult daemon elements, they are likely also designed when Mark codexes where still the plan. I think we will see a character like that for DG this edition (palanquin or not.)

The Mortals represent the peak corruption of the regular humans.. should be thrall sorcerers for TS and some mutants for EC.

However I think the last 2 core concepts are highly speculative on my side.

 

Now Deathguard gotten some more, but that was their starterset privilege.. Obviously others will get more things as well, but maybe they want to put the cores out first.

 

 

Thinking about this image more, and while I like it (and it's attempt to show points of commonality) I do worry that in the attempt to line things up it may give a slightly false impression. 

• Primarch - check.
• 3.5 Codex Cult Character - check... except that Khârn released in 2016, six-and-a-half years before Codex: World Eaters. (And is half the sprues of Ahriman and Typhus... for £2.50 less...)
• Cult Troop - check, though Plague Marines also got the ETB Plague Marines, the Plague Marine Reinforcements, two separate unit Champions, and a separate Icon Bearer (now its own datasheet). (And I suppose the Space Marine Heroes as well.)
• Chaff Cultists - check... except that Poxwalkers also got an ETB Poxwalker kit, and while Tzaangors were clearly designed for AoS and just had the Autopistol/Chainsword upgrade sprue to make them 40kish, they did have their own Thousand Sons box which came out (Nov 2016) before AoS's Disciples of Tzeentch Battletome (Jan 2017).
• Cult Terminators - two-for-three. (Though the Jugger Lord/Invocatus is a 2-sprue kit, like the Blightlords and Scarabs... but costs an extra £2.50...)
• Elite Trio - check, though the Eightbound are a 2-sprue dual kit, Exalted Sorcerers a 2-sprue kit with tons of options, and Deathshroud Bodyguards three half-sprues with minimal options.

So there are obvious points of similarity (Primarch, Cult Character, Cult Troop - and all three are needed in an Emperor's Children release) and looser ones (Chaff, Terminator, Trio). 

 

I don't think the Jugger Lord and Infernal Master form a pattern, particularly.

 

Anyway, a supplementary image I threw together in a similar style (boxing together the releases):

 

 

So if I was in charge of a similar EC release wave:

• Fulgrim (£100.00, 2 big sprues)
• Lucius (£25.00, character sprue)
• Eidolon/Emperor's Children Lord (£32.50, 1.5 sprues, dual kit with tons of options)
• Noise Marines (£40.00, 3 sprues, 10-man kit with only Sonic Weapons)
• Melee Marines (£37.50, 2 sprues, 5-man dual kit with options for Chainsword + Doom Siren or Accursed Weapon + Combat Drug Dispensers)
• Fleshcrafter-Apothercaries (£37.50, 2 sprues, 3-man kit with tons of options)

 

Alternatively, instead of Eidolon/Lord: a £21.00 Emperor's Children: Upgrades and Transfers (in the style of the Black Templars/Cadians/Dark Angels, with interesting bits to make characters, etc, and Sonic Weapons for vehicles).

Edited April 28 by LSM

[Noserenda]

I really wouldnt get hung up on release dates, things are often broken up or released in an odd order for various reasons. There are very credible rumours that had some or all of the World eaters ready to go during Gathering storm (7th?)  but most of them were obviously held back a few years. Similarly the 9th ed Death guard stuff was apparently done at the same time as the rest and the Tzaangor the same, its certainly unusual that they had a 40k upgrade sprue after all.

And as a minor niggle, the Chaos special characters nearly all predate the 3.5 codex, i think its just Typhus the debuted in it when they finally realised they hadnt done a Death guard one :D  

[LSM]

26 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

And as a minor niggle, the Chaos special characters nearly all predate the 3.5 codex, i think its just Typhus the debuted in it when they finally realised they hadnt done a Death guard one :D  

 

I meant the Cult quartet as they were in 3.5 (Ahriman, Typhus, Khârn, Lucius). You're correct that Ahriman and Khârn debuted in 2nd edition's Codex: Chaos, while Typhus and Lucius were the new duo for 3.5. (Doomrider debuted - and then left, as was his style - after the original 3.0 Codex: Chaos Space Marines).

 

//

 

As to the World Eater line being sculpted awhile back - hell, I wouldn't be shocked if the Emperor's Children models have all been done since ~2018 (with re-sculpts of The Noise Marine releasing as a sort of sneak peak in 2019, followed by Fabius Bile in 2020).

 

Actually, on that note, I kind of hope the single Noise Marine stays around as a <CHARACTER> unit in the Codex. (With a new name. "D-Rokker", perhaps, or "Oblivion Marine"?)

[marspeople]

4 hours ago, LSM said:

 

Thinking about this image more, and while I like it (and it's attempt to show points of commonality) I do worry that in the attempt to line things up it may give a slightly false impression. 

• Primarch - check.
• 3.5 Codex Cult Character - check... except that Khârn released in 2016, six-and-a-half years before Codex: World Eaters. (And is half the sprues of Ahriman and Typhus... for £2.50 less...)
• Cult Troop - check, though Plague Marines also got the ETB Plague Marines, the Plague Marine Reinforcements, two separate unit Champions, and a separate Icon Bearer (now its own datasheet). (And I suppose the Space Marine Heroes as well.)
• Chaff Cultists - check... except that Poxwalkers also got an ETB Poxwalker kit, and while Tzaangors were clearly designed for AoS and just had the Autopistol/Chainsword upgrade sprue to make them 40kish, they did have their own Thousand Sons box which came out (Nov 2016) before AoS's Disciples of Tzeentch Battletome (Jan 2017).
• Cult Terminators - two-for-three. (Though the Jugger Lord/Invocatus is a 2-sprue kit, like the Blightlords and Scarabs... but costs an extra £2.50...)
• Elite Trio - check, though the Eightbound are a 2-sprue dual kit, Exalted Sorcerers a 2-sprue kit with tons of options, and Deathshroud Bodyguards three half-sprues with minimal options.

So there are obvious points of similarity (Primarch, Cult Character, Cult Troop - and all three are needed in an Emperor's Children release) and looser ones (Chaff, Terminator, Trio). 

 

I don't think the Jugger Lord and Infernal Master form a pattern, particularly.

 

Anyway, a supplementary image I threw together in a similar style (boxing together the releases):

 

 

So if I was in charge of a similar EC release wave:

• Fulgrim (£100.00, 2 big sprues)
• Lucius (£25.00, character sprue)
• Eidolon/Emperor's Children Lord (£32.50, 1.5 sprues, dual kit with tons of options)
• Noise Marines (£40.00, 3 sprues, 10-man kit with only Sonic Weapons)
• Melee Marines (£37.50, 2 sprues, 5-man dual kit with options for Chainsword + Doom Siren or Accursed Weapon + Combat Drug Dispensers)
• Fleshcrafter-Apothercaries (£37.50, 2 sprues, 3-man kit with tons of options)

 

Alternatively, instead of Eidolon/Lord: a £21.00 Emperor's Children: Upgrades and Transfers (in the style of the Black Templars/Cadians/Dark Angels, with interesting bits to make characters, etc, and Sonic Weapons for vehicles).

The World Eaters and Thousand Sons ranges are crazy samll. Only 6 kits each.

The Mutilith and Tzangors don't really count as they were ported from Fantasy.

 

And the Death Guard got 23! GW is baffling.

 

The World Eaters release is even weirder. No Terminators. No character on foot to lead squads. A mounted character, but no mounted unit for him to lead. What on earth happened there? Something weird for sure.

Edited April 28 by marspeople

[ThePenitentOne]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:05 PM, LSM said:

 

That is how it's currently come to be portrayed, in recent Black Library novels. A weirdly serene, above-it-all, in-group.

 

If the model team ignores all that, though, and decides to make an Emperor's Children release "the Noise Marine army" (in the same way that the other three [Cult Legions] have been implemented as "the [Cult Troop] army"), then the fiction editors can't run in and veto it. The fiction will just change (back).

 

(Not saying that's what will happen, but just stressing that GW doesn't really respect its own canon.)

 

//

 

I mentioned elsewhere, but I really think the concept of Noise Marines have been (hopefully not) irrevocably hurt by a lack of models. Like, looking at it:

• 1991: the original Emperor's Children Marine (at least once labelled as a Noise Marine) with speaker faces, studded leather, etc.
• 1991: the original Noise Marine comes out alongside the D-Rok album Oblivion (which includes the song Noise Marines). It's a gimmicky (and awesome) Slaanesh marine with a guitar. 
• 1996: a Noise Marine release consisting of three bodies, three heads, a backpack, a Sonic Blaster, a Blastmaster, a Power Claw arm, and a Chainsword arm.
• 2002: an Emperor's Children Lord (with combat drugs, studs, speaker faces, face speaker, and one heck of a Doom Siren).
• 2002: an upgrade kit with: three heads, one torso, one Power Weapon arm, one Doom Siren, one Sonic Blaster, one Blastmaster.
• 2013: FW's resin Kakophoni for 30k (who are mainly wearing fancy-but-standard MkIV, with tabards, a cool gun design, and five super-cool heads.)
• 2019: a remake of the 1991 Noise Marine.

 

And like, that's it. You haven't been able to buy Noise Marines that look like their artwork in twenty years. Is it any wonder that Emperor's Children players drifted away from them?

 

//

 

In verifying a couple of those years, I stumbled upon a couple unreleased c2002 (I assume) Emperor's Children models, and now I'm a mix of grumpy (that they never came out) and happy (hope for the future).

 

 

 

 

FW did also used to make a sonic dread. I can't remember the year or a whole lot of details, but I remember wanting one.

[skylerboodie]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

FW did also used to make a sonic dread. I can't remember the year or a whole lot of details, but I remember wanting one.

Edited April 28 by skylerboodie

[redmapa]

Sonic Dreads would be the dream but let's go bigger! Sonic Leviathan dreadnoughts! GW has the CAD files all they need is to give it some  chaos flair, new guns and massive chest implants for even more sonar goodness!

[LSM]

2 hours ago, marspeople said:

The World Eaters and Thousand Sons ranges are crazy samll. Only 6 kits each...

 

And the Death Guard got 23! GW is baffling...

 

To be fair, you can kind of lump the Poxwalkers and the ETB Poxwalkers, as well as the Lord of Contagion and Lord Felthius, and then the Plague Marines with the ETB Plague Marines, Plague Marine Reinforcements, Plague Marine Champion, and Plague Marine Icon Bearer. (Though the Icon Bearer has been spun out of the Plague Marines and into a Character unit.)

 

So that's closer to ~18 "bespoke" units... still three times as much as TS and WE have received. (And EC are likely to receive.)

[jimbo1701]

4 hours ago, marspeople said:

The World Eaters and Thousand Sons ranges are crazy samll. Only 6 kits each.

The Mutilith and Tzangors don't really count as they were ported from Fantasy.

 

And the Death Guard got 23! GW is baffling.

 

The World Eaters release is even weirder. No Terminators. No character on foot to lead squads. A mounted character, but no mounted unit for him to lead. What on earth happened there? Something weird for sure.

Main reason for the discrepancy is that death guard were a starter faction for the 8th relaunch and thus got a much broader scope (arguably a more diverse faction compared to the other cult legions). Poor 1k sons did get left behind with no follow up wave but there is hope that world eaters won’t suffer the same fate and will get a wave 2. Hopefully emperors children will follow suit with world eaters release. I hope that the current noise marine model becomes a character. 

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, jimbo1701 said:

Main reason for the discrepancy is that death guard were a starter faction for the 8th relaunch and thus got a much broader scope (arguably a more diverse faction compared to the other cult legions). Poor 1k sons did get left behind with no follow up wave but there is hope that world eaters won’t suffer the same fate and will get a wave 2. Hopefully emperors children will follow suit with world eaters release. I hope that the current noise marine model becomes a character. 

Tzaangors are salt particles on wound of TSons players. At least WE could expect their models are "WE" they known.

 

If that anniversary noise marine become a character, he possibly would only receive legend version rules.

[Indy Techwisp]

On 4/27/2024 at 5:59 PM, sitnam said:

Have there been any lore examples of psyker TS Dreds post-Rubric? I know it's a popular want but I can't recall it ever being a thing in 40k. A Rubric dread makes more sense imo

On 4/27/2024 at 7:00 PM, Noserenda said:

Ooh yeah i like the idea of a Rubric dread, psyker dreadnoughts always struck me as an insane idea in universe, great for the KSons in the Heresy who love a bit of Hubris but in 40k you have an ability like psychic powers that requires an absolute iron will at all times to not go catastrophically wrong and a tech like dreadnoughts that famously makes the users go a bit do lally, if not fully senile/insane and you want to combine the two? :D 

 

Rubrics don't work in Dreads, hence why the TSons need to Poach Marines from other legions to make helbrutes.

As for Psyker Dreads, all the Sorcerers are still (mostly) flesh and blood, plus the Blood Angels have had a Psyker Dread for ages and they're notably not the most mentally stable legion.

So a TSons Psyker dread should be possible, even if we haven't seen one yet.

[LSM]

Talk about what other Cult Legions should get is too far afield of the Index: Emperor's Children, and so the Thousand Sons Psychic Dreadnought discussion should probably continue in the Thousand Sons sub-forum's What do we need in 10ed thread. 

 

(I think the implications of the Index - such as an Emperor's Children Codex release, and what that might then entail - makes sense to discuss here, and therefore comparisons to past Cult Legion releases. Particularly the "debut" release waves. But what those Cult Legions then might see in future is a bit much.)

[ThePenitentOne]

So, my initial speculation was that EC would be the last release of 11th, and that it would feature in the narrative transition between editions, much like we've seen with primarchs in the past. This announcement tells us not only that a dex is coming, but also that it's a ways out; if we were going to get EC sooner rather than later, they probably wouldn't need a holdover.

 

And given that we're coming up to a year on the new edition, 11th is two years away. I figure we're at least waiting one, but more likely the end of the ed.

 

Finally, I am curious to see how Aeldari meta-plot and fluff evolve to pave the way for the arrival EC. As far as I know, there's still a Cronesword in Slaanesh's palace, and if having the whole collection was such a big deal to the Ynarri, imagine what Slaanesh would do with the other 4? It might be worth mobilizing your Cult and sending your favourite son to lead them.

 

 

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I am curious to see how Aeldari meta-plot and fluff evolve to pave the way for the arrival EC

Evolving from punching bag to deluxe punching bag.

[LSM]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

...if we were going to get EC sooner rather than later, they probably wouldn't need a holdover...

 

Index: World Eaters came out in White Dwarf 477 (June 2022) with Codex: World Eaters in February 2023. (Eight months.) 

 

(Which is not to say that a Codex: Emperor's Children is eight months away.)

[Noserenda]

All we really know is its more than 3 months if they arent showing anything and probably sooner than 11th (So within 2 years) if they are splitting the lists now, and they dont uuuuusually release too close to edition end. Id personally expect just over a year if its a major release as Summer 2025 will be the "no core game summer" so theyll be looking to fill that gap with stuff (and you cant go wrong with space marines) assuming they dont have anything big like a paint relaunch or something planned.

Edited May 1 by Noserenda