Challenge: Making Drop Pods work in 10th

[Galron]

Dont entirely disagree. Main point is to get them where needed on turn 1, typically to the middle of the board to do as much damage as possible, but yeah, I see where you are going. They need assault ramps. 

 

Thinking right now after a game with another competitive list is

dev squad with grav + captain in pod

devsquad + sterguard in pod

Infernus x10 in a pod or 9 and vulkan depending on base force

I am going to try this with both vulkan and another with Lysnder in the termy squad to make them a little tougher. Not like Vulkan has any real staying power after the drop lol.

Edited June 15 by Galron

[jaxom]

Would a Judiciar with Bladeguard coming in to charge block be at all helpful?

[Karhedron]

Possibly but that is a lot of points to try and make the Pod more useful. 

[Galron]

Yeah, I would think that would just be giving points to the opponent. Anything that drops needs to be capable of doing damage the turn it drops. If you do not have space or the current turn has the opponent's good units screened well, dont even drop the unit. If they cant do damage worth doing then hold them until they can.

 

I think to my game over the weekend where I played my Vanguard list instead of my pod list and it would have been rough with how many fast screening units he had running around. I think I likely wouldnt have even dropped on T1, I didnt have the space. Without having you jump over to my thread on the Raven Guard page, I played a space wolf player with a spread out infiltrator squad in a line blocking off almost his entire deployment corner, 2 units of wolves, 3 scouts(2 of which were forward deployed) 4 different dreads, and 2 tooled up wolf cav with the cav named guy and Logan. I conceeded the game because my rolls were so ridiculously bad, 6 plasma inceptor shots rolled 4 ones and then two 1s to wound or failing 4 out of 5 charges in one turn and only passing that one because I needed 1 and rolled snake eyes for examples. So rolls aside, despite going first, he had effective screening up front which would have kept my pod units from doing much on a T1 Alpha. I think I would have held them back until T2 and tried to clear most screens on T1 which I was able to do with my Vanguard stuff even if it did take about three times the firepower it should have taken normally, A full squad of heavy intercessors with a captain killed 2 scouts in the open at point blank and then failed their charge. Another scout squad took 2 infitrator squads with phobos librarians(using the boosted smite) and a combi LT to just barely kill a 5 man scout squad. 

 

But I think the turn the wolf cav came charging into the middle with his maxed out advance movement but failed to charge anything, he would have had a bad time. In this case both units had feet on the center objective thus rerolling 1s to wound. OoM on one and Vulkan's on the other, he can only do the -1 to hit and wound strat on one of them. Infernus would likely have done roughly 30 hits with 9 devastating wounds plus whatever normal wounds they got + the melti-meltas. Grav cannons would have done some work on the other one.

So what this comes down to is pod units do not exist in a vacuum.

 

You want as much firepower as possible in the 3 pods but they need to work on concert with whatever you have behind the lines. Grav doesnt need to be right up in front but getting that bonus strength plus an extra ap from say a Hail Strike storm speeder. I am considering just dropping a pod with a dev squad with multi-meltas in it  since I cant think of what else to put in it. I guess it wouldnt be the worse thing although in my particular list it leaves 25 points on the table. I hate the stupid way points are done this edition, once again, HH does it better.

[Galron]

Only starting a new post as the balance slate just threw everything out the window with the captain thing. And then they buffed Nids, as if T10, already high strength, multiple invul, fast advance and shoot, insane firepower, non-bracketing monster lists needed buffs. What? Did every nid player not already have three hive tyrants and three exocrines so make them better so they sell those last couple and give them lethal? 

 

So the captain thing really guts the Fireball Pod list. Having two uses of immolation protocols was what made it useful when it costed 2CP per use. Now its 1CP AND you only get it once and if someone like a callidus happens to be around, its back to 2CP. I guess they really want to sell callidus assassins and whoever that SW dreadnought is too. What a crock of bull. Marines got hosed yet again, the free strat thing was the only thing marines have going for them and now they took that away. For the most part marines were struggling with just a couple viable builds, now they drop even further down the list since GW knee-jerked and spiked the points for the units used in those lists. But hey, I guess we can be glad we arent artillery, infantry or Tempestus guard, they just got pushed into a single viable build. Crap, I have two of those three too I use when marines arent fun to lose with anymore in the cycle.

 

So all I am coming up with right now are 2 infernus pods with vulkan in one and a captain in the other. The rest of the force supports this. Gotta think on this. Had a great plan before the new rules dropped as a combo mechanized and pod drop force to storm the center with a bit of mobility to swoop around the flanks. That kind of went out the window. 

 

So with the strat change I still end up with a bunch of units with a lot of shots and low AP. So my current debate is the redeemer with either regular aggressors with biologicus or flamer aggressors and a scout squad. In the rear I have a storm speeder hailstrike to help buff up the AP where needed. I also have a grav dev squad in an impulsor to get around and shoot from the firing deck. 

Firestorm:

Buffs

Immolation protocol 2CP for dev wounds

Vulkans flame + melta wound reroll

Captain for a -1CP on a strat(almost not worth it)

Hailstorm  with -1AP at one thing it shoots at

Everything is assault

Crucible of battle -niche within 6" you get +1 to wound

Onslaught of fire niche within 12" you get a +1 to hit and a battle shock check if they lose a model

Burning Vengeance 1cp- niche but useful in this scenario since I have both aggressors and grav devs in transports.

 

Or Gladius

Same Vulkan, captain and Hailstorm buffs

Could do Fire Discipline on the Biologicus is doing bolter aggressors

Storm of fire buffs the shooting for -1ap 

Honor the chapter for Lance and -1ap for the power fists of the aggressors

Squad tactics for some movement shenanigans. 

 

I am really thinking the new dataslate has moved pod lists out of Fire storm(or at least my pod list). With the keystone strat now being limited to once per turn and still being 1CP and being affected by so many other outside factors, the relative independence brought by Gladius of units seems a bit more useful on paper. 

[Malakithe]

I think perhaps you could try non flame units. Lots of stuff can benefit from +1S to ranged weapons.

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I think perhaps you could try non flame units. Lots of stuff can benefit from +1S to ranged weapons.

 

True but having a couple of good flamer units to proc Immolation Protocols is always handy. The ability to slap half a dozen MWs on anything pretty tasty.

[Minsc]

I feel that Drop Pods are very limited currently. They can't carry much that I actually want them to carry.

 

As someone who only plays Firestorm, the only unit I'd consider putting in a Pod is Infernus Marines (and maybe Sternguard for potentially garanteed RF-range against a good target.)

Every CC-oriented unit is out due to unreliable charge ranges, and I think that most other ranged troops that can be placed in a Pod either have better transport-options or simply don't need a transport to begin with. 

[Keifer0999]

I am just getting back into the game, and it seems like every army I have has  been super nerfed, and the only play styles for many are not how I want to play ( For example, Space Wolves. I refuse to ever have Thunder Wolf Cavalry). 

So, I don't have my rules around....what's the max number of pods you can bring down? I'm guessing my days of dropping 80 marines is over?

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Keifer0999 said:

I am just getting back into the game, and it seems like every army I have has  been super nerfed, and the only play styles for many are not how I want to play ( For example, Space Wolves. I refuse to ever have Thunder Wolf Cavalry). 

 

I also play my Space Wolves without Thunderwolves and they work fine. I used to run mine as Iron Wolves back in 5th edition. Lots of transports and nasty short ranged firepower and melee. I have found the Firestorm Detachment works really well for that style of play and is really effective. A lot of people are running Wolves effectively with the Gladius Detachment rules. Lastly, Champions of Russ got a significant buff in the recent dataslate as we now start the game with a Saga of our choice already active so may be worth a try now.

 

The important thing to remember is that Detachments are no longer linked to factions. So while the Firestorm Detachment may represent a typical Salamanders way of fighting, it is not locked to Salamanders. This is great as it means that you can play the same models in very different army lists. Wolves are fun and decently competitive, even if you don't like Thunderwolves. 

[Galron]

Since drop pods are inexplicably no longer dedicated transports, we max out at three. 

[jaxom]

Do Storm Speeders being able to hand out either additional AP or +1 to wound vs Monsters and Vehicles extend the options of what can go in a Drop Pod, or just make the already thought of options better?

[Galron]

They make the options better. Oh and Battlescribe has the Hailstrike written incorrectly. It doesnt list that monsters and vehicles are excluded. which was the whole reason I was bringing one teamed up with a grav dev squad. So I am back to the drawing board. I definitelly see melta and the hammerstrike(whichever one is +1 to wound vs vehicles and mosters) as being useful, but it is a bit overpriced. 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

They make the options better. Oh and Battlescribe has the Hailstrike written incorrectly. It doesnt list that monsters and vehicles are excluded. which was the whole reason I was bringing one teamed up with a grav dev squad. So I am back to the drawing board. I definitelly see melta and the hammerstrike(whichever one is +1 to wound vs vehicles and mosters) as being useful, but it is a bit overpriced. 

 

Yeah it's the Hailstrike for Infantry, Thunderstrike for Vehicles, and Hammerstrike for getting rid of cover.

[Keifer0999]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:42 AM, Karhedron said:

 

I also play my Space Wolves without Thunderwolves and they work fine. I used to run mine as Iron Wolves back in 5th edition. Lots of transports and nasty short ranged firepower and melee. I have found the Firestorm Detachment works really well for that style of play and is really effective. A lot of people are running Wolves effectively with the Gladius Detachment rules. Lastly, Champions of Russ got a significant buff in the recent dataslate as we now start the game with a Saga of our choice already active so may be worth a try now.

 

The important thing to remember is that Detachments are no longer linked to factions. So while the Firestorm Detachment may represent a typical Salamanders way of fighting, it is not locked to Salamanders. This is great as it means that you can play the same models in very different army lists. Wolves are fun and decently competitive, even if you don't like Thunderwolves. 

Thanks for the info! I have a ton of plain, unused Primaris guys....was going to expand my Deathwatch but since they are probably going away, I will probably go full Wolf again. 

[Tacitus]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:33 AM, jaxom said:

Do Storm Speeders being able to hand out either additional AP or +1 to wound vs Monsters and Vehicles extend the options of what can go in a Drop Pod, or just make the already thought of options better?

They don't change the math.  There's nothing that goes in a drop pod that benefits more from the pod if a speeder is around.  There's nothing that doesn't need a pod that gets better in a pod with a speeder around.  

 

Edit to Add:  As an answer to the intial question of making Drop Pods work - I'm not sure they can.  They have an immense footprint if you count the petals.  Even if you don't the board is smaller, and the forces are larger:  Both in base size, and number of bases, and theres usually more terrain than before.   Last edition one of the internet magazine sites for 40K took a tournament's preplaced terrain and "mathhammered" out how many different deployment locations there were for a Hammerfall bunker.  Some maps had zero options, other maps had 1.  Now a drop pod is smaller, and doesn't have a 1" buffer zone requirement, and that didn't include the no-mans land center but that still won't add much for landing zones.  Especially if you count the petals. 

Edited July 15 by Tacitus

[Galron]

No one counts the petals. Most people glue their pods shut anyway. GW has ruled on it several times in the past and has said to ignore the doors. While they havent said anything this edition, its doubtful the 100% same ruling from multiple editions past will have changed for this edition for some reason. 

 

They are still useful for getting flamer and rapid fire units into an opponents backfield turn 1 or 2 when otherwise they would have had to strat reserve and come on from a board edge. They are also useful for getting a T1 bridgehead on a no mans land objective with some units that otherwise would not have been able to get there in numbers. Both of these are useful but are also very opponent dependent. Any of my guard armies would force pods in late simply due to the numbers of dudes and vehicles I typically take preventing a real landing zone. A force with a couple squads of marine Infiltrators will make this hard to use, especially since one squad is almost ubiquitous in most marine lists for protecting the home objective. An aggressive nidzilla list will run it over like the GA offensive line vs a JV high school football team if you try to storm a no-man's land objective early. Thus, the same tactic using them does not work against every army. 

 

Im still leaning towards grav devs/sternguard/infernus. Grav devs mostly because they are serious enough threat that they force the opponent to turn around. Yes they have range but I think its better to dictate the opponent's movement than let him dictate it when possible.

[Minsc]

"Petals"/doors are ignored for obvious reasons: If you count them as an actual part of the droppod, then that means that you can disembark the content 3" from the edge of the dropped down petals/doors, which gives you basically a ~15" disembark-bubble around the point where the droppod lands (plus enemy units wouldn't be able to get within a massive portion of the table, unless they charge it,) which would be insanity. 

 

Edited July 16 by Minsc

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, Galron said:

No one counts the petals. Most people glue their pods shut anyway. GW has ruled on it several times in the past and has said to ignore the doors. While they havent said anything this edition, its doubtful the 100% same ruling from multiple editions past will have changed for this edition for some reason. 

 

They are still useful for getting flamer and rapid fire units into an opponents backfield turn 1 or 2 when otherwise they would have had to strat reserve and come on from a board edge. They are also useful for getting a T1 bridgehead on a no mans land objective with some units that otherwise would not have been able to get there in numbers. Both of these are useful but are also very opponent dependent. Any of my guard armies would force pods in late simply due to the numbers of dudes and vehicles I typically take preventing a real landing zone. A force with a couple squads of marine Infiltrators will make this hard to use, especially since one squad is almost ubiquitous in most marine lists for protecting the home objective. An aggressive nidzilla list will run it over like the GA offensive line vs a JV high school football team if you try to storm a no-man's land objective early. Thus, the same tactic using them does not work against every army. 

 

Im still leaning towards grav devs/sternguard/infernus. Grav devs mostly because they are serious enough threat that they force the opponent to turn around. Yes they have range but I think its better to dictate the opponent's movement than let him dictate it when possible.

The last ruling I ever saw was that you could do either, but you had to be consistent however you chose to do it.  But the main point still stands.  The things they used to do is no longer done, the things they help either don't need the help, or aren't generally good enough to help in the first place. At this point one of the "best" ways to use them is to drop empty OC2 on empty objectives.