[DW/SM] Spectre of Ullanor (OOC/Discussion)

[Lysimachus]

Quick rules query: can the extra Hit for getting more than 2DoS with Twin Linked take you over the normal number of Hits for the weapon (eg in the same way Scatter does) or is it limited by the weapon's max RoF?

 

Should Enkush have got 5 Hits? (Considering it uses up double ammo, so 8 Rounds, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the number of Hits could be over the normal max RoF of 4?)

 

It's probably too late for this Round, but just for future reference?

 

[Mazer Rackham]

Unfortunately, when Enkush/MG decided to use FAB, he applied the +20 BaSK, which implies he actually stopped dead and didn't move. If this was the intention, then I'll allow the extra Hit, but if not, and he wishes to continue pursuit, he would move 10m, and be at BaSK -10, as the rules for FAB impose this if the Character moves.

 

New calc if on the move:

BaSK 49 +20 (Size) -20 (FI) -10 (FAB/Move) = 39

D100: 16, PASS 2 DoS + 1 TL = 4 Hits

 

EDIT: Caught by Ballistic Skill! 

 

EDIT 2: Many thanks for post approval!

 

Edited Sunday at 11:39 AM by Mazer Rackham
Removed my windbaggery

[Trokair]

Twin Linked give a +20 to hit by itself. 

Edited Sunday at 11:45 AM by Trokair
Take edits into new post

[Mazer Rackham]

2 minutes ago, Trokair said:

Twin Linked give a +20 to hit by itself. 

 

So it does, good catch.

 

In that case then, Calc would be:

BaSK 49 +20 (Size) +20 (TL) -20 (Floor It) -10 (FAB/Move) = 59

D100: 16, PASS 4 DoS + 1 TL = 5 Hits

 

So, yes, MG can move 10m, and roll for the extra Hit.

[Trokair]

Saw Mazer's reply after my edits to the baove post, so reverted that one and here are the additonal bits

 

If a vehicle moved 1 or 2 x Tactical speed in the last round then attacks by anybody onbard (whcih I read to include the driver) are -10 or -20 respectifkey, p 166 RoB.

 

 

Also isn't the -10 on FAB if you use the FAB ability to move up to your Ag bonus and not if you moved for nay other reason?

 

So would it be something like:

BaS:49 +20 (Size) +20 (TL) +20 (FAB) -20 (Wrekcer Floor It) -20 (Move 2x tatical speed) = 69

Edited Sunday at 11:51 AM by Trokair

[Lysimachus]

Supplemental question: I thought being on a Bike granted the Auto-stabilised Trait, meaning SAB/FAB was a half-Action and you could move? Have I pulled that completely out of thin air? 

 

 

[Trokair]

6 minutes ago, Lysimachus said:

Supplemental question: I thought being on a Bike granted the Auto-stabilised Trait, meaning SAB/FAB was a half-Action and you could move? Have I pulled that completely out of thin air? 

 

 

 

I also had this in mind and went looking but havent found it yet. 
 

Also Dreadnaughts (p182 ROB) are specifically stated as having the Auto-Stabilized Trait, implying that other vehicles don't.

[Mazer Rackham]

3 hours ago, Trokair said:

If a vehicle moved 1 or 2 x Tactical speed in the last round then attacks by anybody onboard (which I read to include the driver) are -10 or -20 respectively, p 166 RoB.

 

Agree, my reading of the rule aligns.

 

This I think is what's been causing confusion (for me at least), because of DW (RoB) p.166 (as you mentioned):

 

'A driver may take an Attack Action only if he has not used his entire Action to move the vehicle.'

 

[My working/process]

[Hence my conundrum; by RAW, if the Driver only moves Half-Tactical, then he may only shoot with a Standard attack, (or perform any other Half-Action with a non-conflicting subtype) unless you read that Tactical Speed = Agility Bonus. If Tactical Speed DOES NOT = AGB, then what you essentially have are guns which cannot fire multiple on the move, (If the only crew is a driver, and the weapons are driver-operated) since SAB and FAB are both discrete Full Actions.]

 

The Bike does not provide Auto-Stabilised, only Mounted, so the weapons always count as moving, yet they do count as Type: Basic, for the purposes of FAB/SAB.

 

In which case the Calc is either:

 

Stop:

BaSK: 49 +20 (Size) +20 (FAB) +20 (TL) -20 (Floor It) = 89

4 x Hits (Max RoF), + 1 TL = 5 Hits

Enkush comes to a Dead Stop to fire.

 

Go:

BaSK: 49 +20 (Size) +20 (TL) -10 (Tactical Speed) -20 (Floor It) = 59

Standard Attack: D100 16, PASS Plus 4 DoS = 1 Hit +1 TL Hit (2 Total)

Plus, Enkush moves 10m

 

This is now the correct answer.

 

We got there in the end, with thanks to our esteemed interpreters...!

 

Round 6 will use the clarified calculations/actions/declarations. Note that White Scars, or White Scar Geneseed, can still do 'Swift As The Wind' whilst mounted - the Solo Mode specifically permits it.

 

Edited Sunday at 03:10 PM by Mazer Rackham
Driver operated clarification.

[Trokair]

'A driver may take an Attack Action only if he has not used his entire Action to move the vehicle.'

 

There is nothing I can see that says a driver has to spend his action moving the vehicle (aside from flyers which must move at least Tactical speed every turn) so coming to a stop seems fine. And given that he was moving last turn I imagine it is more of a foot of the gas rolling to a stop than an active break to stop and shoot.

 

Yes RAW driver operated guns are limited to half action attack (single shot) if the driver also wants to keep the vehicle moving, but that is why most vehicles have gunners to man weapons and the driver operated are a secondary weapon. This dose hit Bikes harder than say a tank, but then we have a bike for speed and not as a weapon platform (that’s what the sidecar on the attack bike is for).   

 

 

Also where are you getting 10m from?

 

Are you taking the Ag bonus move while mounted to be ½ of Tactical Speed instead of a number of m equal to the Ag bonus? Similar to how the White Scars Solo ability allows a standard half move (while on foot)* or a ½ Tactical speed (if operating a vehicle) after shooting if the test is passed.

 

*The difference for most on foot character between moving a number of meters equal to Ag bonus and a half move action is probably little if any most of the time.

 

Would this logic also apply to dodging out of a flamer/ area of affect weapon as well.

 

 

 

Edit: saw the amendment to the abov after posting, all seems good, the above in this post is just further musing/clarification seekign on my part and i think we are on the same page in general.

 

Did FFG ever test their games?

 

Edited Sunday at 02:52 PM by Trokair

[Machine God]

2 hours ago, Trokair said:

 

I also had this in mind and went looking but havent found it yet. 
 

Also Dreadnaughts (p182 ROB) are specifically stated as having the Auto-Stabilized Trait, implying that other vehicles don't.

 

Dreadnoughts can't use Floor It though 

[Mazer Rackham]

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

Did FFG ever test their games?

 

Yes, just not with us. 

 

(Although B&C did contribute a Playtesting Team to FFG at one point, for BC, IIRC).

 

So, I'm going to go through the post again, and I want to be very specific in that I am hereby only referring to Space Marine Bikes, and all the characteristics of such to try and iron everything out.

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

There is nothing I can see that says a driver has to spend his action moving the vehicle

 

He doesn't, except for...

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

(aside from flyers which must move at least Tactical speed every turn) so coming to a stop seems fine.

 

Correct.

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

And given that he was moving last turn I imagine it is more of a foot off the gas rolling to a stop than an active break to stop and shoot.

 

There's a case there for extra movement, but 2 x Tactical Speed, which is 40m, isn't so fast you couldn't hit the brakes and slow down. Rather than rules compulsion, I'd say that's best taken care of by narrative contrivance, so if you're going to still Move and Attack, then yes, you'd roll it into your IC Post:

 

Example:

Spoiler

'The Ork machine outpacing him, Julo suspected his best chance was to try and damage the buggy. He feathered the accelerator to get a shot off, and maintain momentum...'

 

Julo's Actions:

Half Action: Half Move 20m

Half Action: Standard Attack.

 

Or he slams on the brakes - no Drive Test required, and goes for a FAB.

 

There is no real rule (AFAIK) that enforces elective braking at Tactical Speed. (Ludicrous Speed, maybe...) Forced stop, certainly does have consequences as per the Vehicle Critical Damage Table (VCDT).

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

Yes RAW driver operated guns are limited to half action attack (single shot) if the driver also wants to keep the vehicle moving, but that is why most vehicles have gunners to man weapons and the driver operated are a secondary weapon. This does hit Bikes harder than say a tank, but then we have a bike for speed and not as a weapon platform (that’s what the sidecar on the attack bike is for).   

 

Exactly so.

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

Are you taking the Ag bonus move while mounted to be ½ of Tactical Speed instead of a number of m equal to the Ag bonus? Similar to how the White Scars Solo ability allows a standard half move (while on foot)* or a ½ Tactical speed (if operating a vehicle) after shooting if the test is passed.

 

Yes. The WS Solo Mode DW (FF) p. 31 specifically states:

 

'...After making a ranged attack, a successful Challenging (+0) Agility Test (or Drive or Pilot Test, if operating a vehicle) allows the Battle-Brother to make a standard Half Move (or move half his vehicle’s Tactical Speed, rounding up) as a Free Action. The character may only make this move once per Round.'

 

So, the full and complete calc is:

 

Stop:

BaSK: 49 +20 (Size) +20 (FAB) +20 (TL) -20 (Floor It) = 89

4 x Hits (Max RoF), + 1 TL = 5 Hits

Enkush comes to a Dead Stop to fire (narratively).

SATW Test: Pass = y, may +10m (half-tactical) move.

 

Go:

Move Action: Tactical (20m) Or NOT.

BaSK: 49 +20 (Size) +20 (TL) -10 (Tactical Speed) -20 (Floor It) = 59

Standard Attack: D100 16, PASS Plus 4 DoS = 1 Hit +1 TL Hit (2 Total)

SATW Test: Pass = y, may +10m (half-tactical) move.

 

1 hour ago, Trokair said:

Would this logic also apply to dodging out of a flamer/ area of affect weapon as well.

 

Vehicle Dodging is different, you need to have moved at least Tactical or Half-Tactical, so if you did your 'SATW' Solo Move, I would say that , yes, it classes as sufficient criteria for dodging BaSK/AOE/Flame attacks - which is highly appropriate for Scars.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:01 PM by Mazer Rackham
Responses.

[Machine God]

Post edited:

 

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386578-dwsm-spectre-of-ullanor-ic/page/3/#findComment-6142500

 

 

 

 

 

[Mazer Rackham]

41 minutes ago, Machine God said:

Post edited:

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/386578-dwsm-spectre-of-ullanor-ic/page/3/#findComment-6142500

 

No worries, but be aware that the SATW Solo Ag/Drive Test is a Challenging (+0) AG/Drive Test normally, but you have sand, -10 here.

 

You still Pass, but it's only 1 DoS. Doesn't really matter, but the numbers in the Rules are for nominal conditions. Any imposed conditions override what's in the text.

 

[Trokair]

So, with all the Bike issues sorted (again) how long do we think it will be before Mazer finds a way to seperate us Sons of the Khan from our steeds?

Edited Sunday at 06:51 PM by Trokair

[Machine God]

32 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

No worries, but be aware that the SATW Solo Ag/Drive Test is a Challenging (+0) AG/Drive Test normally, but you have sand, -10 here.

 

You still Pass, but it's only 1 DoS. Doesn't really matter, but the numbers in the Rules are for nominal conditions. Any imposed conditions override what's in the text.

 

 

Thank you for the help GM. Although the -10 for Sand only takes away 1DoS, so its a Pass with 2 DoS.

 

Post edited for ground conditions.

 

 

 

[Machine God]

2 minutes ago, Trokair said:

So, with all the Bike issues sorted (again) how long do we think it will be before Mazer finds a way to separate us Sons of the Khan from our steeds?

 

Without any of your bad dice rolls?

 

I only have 3 FAB's (40 Magazine firing 8 Bolts a time) until a Reload.

 

 

 

[Trokair]

10 minutes ago, Machine God said:

Without any of your bad dice rolls?

 

Well yes, I am suprised I haved crashed yet. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Machine God said:

I only have 3 FAB's (40 Magazine firing 8 Bolts a time) until a Reload.

 

Indeed, hence why  I nequiered as to reload cost for our little ammo hungry bikes. 

 

Might have to resort to SAB or single shots to conserve ammo. 

 

 

Actualy, I have a question.  Can we shoot the twin bolter witout the twin linked (ie no bonus from twin linked to hit or extra hits) but witout hte higher ammo cost to preserve ammo if needed?

 

Edited Sunday at 07:08 PM by Trokair

[Mazer Rackham]

15 hours ago, Trokair said:

Actualy, I have a question.  Can we shoot the twin bolter witout the twin linked (ie no bonus from twin linked to hit or extra hits) but witout hte higher ammo cost to preserve ammo if needed?

 

Hmm. You could stick your finger in one of the barrels?

 

EDIT: Seriously, though, you've have to alter the mechanism, which would require prolonged Techmarine attention. Since shot selectors can't be applied to Mounted weapons, you'd either have to have Twin-linked permanently turned on, or off.

 

Just as an aside, it's @Necronaut/Hierax's turn. Just putting it down in case it got lost in the back-and-forth.

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Mazer Rackham

[Necronaut]

@Mazer Rackham sorry I have been on the go since Saturday with no foreign data plan (until just a few minutes ago), and I am finally back on the hotel wifi after a long work day. I am working on getting caught up on the IC thread now -- should have an update bashed out presently.

 

Edit: were I to have Hierax aim at the buggy Kur-Dawa is pursuing, would a shot at the driver be a remote possibility, or am I better off attempting to blow off one of the wheels/destroy the rear axle (which would be a called shot in either event)?

Edited 13 hours ago by Necronaut

[Mazer Rackham]

1 hour ago, Necronaut said:

@Mazer Rackham sorry I have been on the go since Saturday with no foreign data plan (until just a few minutes ago), and I am finally back on the hotel wifi after a long work day. I am working on getting caught up on the IC thread now -- should have an update bashed out presently.

 

No sweat, was just making sure your turn didn't get lost.

 

1 hour ago, Necronaut said:

Edit: were I to have Hierax aim at the buggy Kur-Dawa is pursuing, would a shot at the driver be a remote possibility, or am I better off attempting to blow off one of the wheels/destroy the rear axle (which would be a called shot in either event)?

 

No LOS on the driver, I suppose you could called shot the axle, (which would increase Drive Test Difficulty) but you might as well just shoot the buggy and see how much damage you do. Any RF's will trigger a VCDT event anyway. Roll the dice.