Seekers

[Razorblade]

Can someone explain to me, what the problem with Seekers is supposed to be? 

Apparently part of the Internet (and the people at goonhammer) seem to think they're somehow busted and I cannot put my mind around what about this 18-Point, single wound unit with no scoring modification is supposed to be the issue.

[Brother Kraskor]

Check their bolter rule - Shot Selector. They can take Breaching 4+, so they'll Breach anything T4 or above they wound anyway, better at taking down armour then plasma, at very long range, with BS5 and Precision 4+. They're excellent for taking Sgts and special weapons out.

Edited Friday at 08:43 AM by Brother Kraskor

[Razorblade]

I know the rules and also saw them in action. The breaching is nice bit they're not really better than Plasma, which is really underwhelming. They're good at picking off Sergeants and specialists but not more so than, say, last editions Nemesis Recons, and with the gutting of Apothecaries that also seems less important to have. (Also, to be really good at sniping they still need their breahing so no status, as opposed to a Nemesis bolter) Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad at all, I just don't think they're anywhere close to overpowered either.

[Khulu]

I used them (as TS with the Corvidae power) and found them incredibly lethal. Much more so than my plasma support squad. 

 

That said they're very fragile so I'm not sure they're "busted" but they do seem very good. 

[W.A.Rorie]

4 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

Check their bolter rule - Shot Selector. They can take Breaching 4+, so they'll Breach anything T4 or above they wound anyway, better at taking down armour then plasma, at very long range, with BS5 and Precision 4+. They're excellent for taking Sgts and special weapons out.

 

And don't forget they have Infiltrate (9) and Skirmish Sub type.

 

30" 2 shot bolters hitting on 2's, Precision on 4's, Breaching on 4's so  AP 2  in advance of your forces and each model can be 3" apart.  Also great for taking out Voxes, Vexilas, Apothecaries, augry scanners, and models with power weapons

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

20 minutes ago, W.A.Rorie said:

 

And don't forget they have Infiltrate (9) and Skirmish Sub type.

 

30" 2 shot bolters hitting on 2's, Precision on 4's, Breaching on 4's so  AP 2  in advance of your forces and each model can be 3" apart.  Also great for taking out Voxes, Vexilas, Apothecaries, augry scanners, and models with power weapons

And access to bayonets for the Kraken Bolters. Everything counts in the end.

[SlickSamos]

A squad of 10 Seekers will mean average 20*1/2*1/2=5 Precision wounds vs T4 (so that's a Sergeant, Vex, Vox and Scanner in a Tactical Squad all gone) plus a few extra wounds to spread around (20*1/3*1/2=10/3=3.333)

 

Against 2+/5++ it's an average of 20*1/2*1/3*2/3=2.222 Precision wounds which is just enough to take out a Tartaros Sergeant or Chosen Champion (not to be confused with Legion Champion) plus an extra wound on the squad (20*1/3*1/3*2/3=1.481)

 

And it's 20*1/2*1/3*1/2=1.667 Precision wounds on a Cataphractii model so maybe pushing luck a bit when aiming at Cataphractii squads plus an extra wound on the squad (20*1/3*1/3*1/2=1.111)

 

Tactical Support Squad of 10 with Plasma Overloaded (about same points cost):

 

20*2/3*(1/3+1/2*1/3)=6.667 wounds vs T4 3+ plus about 1 self inflicted wound (20*1/6*1/3)

 

20*2/3*(1/3*2/3+1/2*1/6)=4.074 wounds vs T5 2+/5++ plus about 1 self inflicted wound

 

20*2/3*(1/3*1/2+1/2*1/6)=3.333 wounds vs T5 2+/4++ plus about 1 self inflicted wound

 

So in terms of damage Seekers are a little bit better than Plasma vs T4 3+ but Plasma are a little bit better Seekers vs Terminators. 

 

Terminators comparison is interesting that even though Plasma has been nerfed to Breaching 5+ instead of 4+, due Terminators being T5, Seekers became 1/3 worse against them (see old values at end)

 

So I'd agree with Razorblade that in general they are about on a par but if I could only take one, it'd be the Seekers for the Precision shots as highlighted by the others.  I'd also agree with Razorblade that the original panic was a bit overblown (see also "James has killed my Veteran Squads", like dude have you read the Centurion Command Squad?  You can use the same load out as your old Veterans...)

 

Old values for 10 Seekers

5 Precision & 3.333 other Wounds vs T4 3+

3.333 Precision & ~2 other Wounds vs T4 2+/5++

2.5 Precision & 1.667 other Wounds vs T4 2+/4++

 

Old values for 10 Plasma guns

20*2/3*(1/2+1/3*1/3)=8.148 vs T4 3+ plus about 1 self inflicted wound

20*2/3*(1/2*2/3+1/3*1/6)=5.185 wounds vs T5 2+/5++ plus about 1 self inflicted wound

20*2/3*(1/2*1/2+1/3*1/6)=4.074 wounds vs T5 2+/4++ plus about 1 self inflicted wound

 

[W.A.Rorie]

1 hour ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

And access to bayonets for the Kraken Bolters. Everything counts in the end.

 

Of course who could forget those...

 

 

But I dont think I am going to be giving my Death Guard Seekers bayonets, but sgt will have a Scythe

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Mine in SoH probably don't get any, too, or at least just a Bayonet, to keep them cheap.

I don't know if any special close combat weapons for a sarge are worth of the cost now, at least in non-assault units. But scythes are always a cool looking ad on in DG units.

 

12 minutes ago, W.A.Rorie said:

 

Of course who could forget those...

 

 

But I dont think I am going to be giving my Death Guard Seekers bayonets, but sgt will have a Scythe

 

[W.A.Rorie]

1 minute ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

 

I don't know if any special close combat weapons for a sarge are worth of the cost now, at least in non-assault units. But scythes are always a cool looking ad on in DG units.

 

 

 

I agree and that's the only reason he's  getting one. Still need to order Tortuga Bodies for them. Did get these heads for them tho

 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

43 minutes ago, W.A.Rorie said:

 

I agree and that's the only reason he's  getting one. Still need to order Tortuga Bodies for them. Did get these heads for them tho

 

Tortuga Bay is still in the business?

[W.A.Rorie]

I hope so...

[Shard of Magnus]

Overpowered seems a bit of a knee jerk reaction but I don’t have enough experience with v3 to have a truly informed opinion.

 

On paper, having good odds to take out all the things that boost leadership stats or improve odds of removing status, and also flexibility to apply different statuses, could be overwhelming if facing multiple units.  Add in deterrence for exposing any consuls/disruption of game plans (such as risk of losing a Master of Descent auto pass reserve rolls due to sniping) and I sort of understand the reaction.

 

If they were the best at killing everything and could switch to causing statuses then I could see seekers being labeled as overpowered.  As they are, it seems similar to saying armor is overpowered if you take no anti armor, in my opinion. A lot likely depends on local metas and army comp. 

[Xenith]

23 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Breaching is nice, but they're not really better than Plasma, 

 

Heh, what? They're breaching 4+ compared to 6+ on plasma.

 

IMO seekers were one of the best units for their points last edition, easily able to kill half a tactical squad from 24" away. In this edition they doubled their shots and kept then points the same, in an edition where loads of stuff got worse and sniper/precision weapons got toned down. 

 

The maths has been done above, but 5 seekers are putting average of 3 AP2 wounds on a model of their choice from 30" away each turn.