40k 40k Perturabo + Stand-Alone Iron Warriors Codex (RUMOUR)

[Xenith]

A whole codex seems crazy, maybe more an end of edition campaign book focused on them?

[Tastyfish]

21 minutes ago, Xenith said:

A whole codex seems crazy, maybe more an end of edition campaign book focused on them?

HQ

Primarch

Vashtorr?

Dark Magos?

Honsou?

Warsmith

 

Elite

Dark Magos - Myrmidon style?

Mutilators perhaps

Vashtorr's robots

 

Troops

Iron Warriors

Negavolt cultists

Perhaps some more Vashtoor deamons

 

Plus the usual shared tanks, CSM units (terminators/havocs) and deamon engines from CSM and that would seem pretty comparable to World Eaters and Emperor's Children with 4-5+ new kits to start with.

With Dark Mech and Vashtorr's stuff also providing plenty of room for future expansion into Thousand Son/Death Guard levels.

 

I think a supplement would probably work better, but it's not wildly different from the other two.

[01RTB01]

51 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Freedom of what? You got Legionaires on two separate datasheets and Possessed But With Swords. 

 

Plus Fulgrim, Lucius, characters, detachments, strats, enhancements, fluff, etc.

 

You don't have to understand it, but I was elated that the Third finally got a separate book and range from the regular csm book. So much so I grabbed the "super special edition" codex as I've waited for this since 1996. I've enjoyed playing EC in 10th more than my orks and frankly, no one can take my enjoyment away. As I said, for long term players with extensive collections I get their frustration. However, I came in fresh and I've had a blast. 

 

I hope that Iron Warriors get their day in the sun and they get obliterators akin to the artwork earlier on this page. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

 

. 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:39 AM by 01RTB01
Accidental quad post.

[ShibeKing]

I want the Iron Warriors to get unique stuff, but I'd rather they just get a digital supplement. GW will probably have another day one update that invalidates the physical book before it even gets into our hands.

[Nephaston]

3 hours ago, Jscarlos18 said:

Lorgar maybe goes for Dark King? I agree his allegiance to Chaos in all its aspects could present a serious problem if GW makes Undivided ascension no longer feasable after Be'lakor betraying the big 4

 

They could also re-introduce the concept of Daemon Princes elevating other to princedom. So you could have Be'lakor being the sponsor of any undivided prince as it serves to expand his own power and influence.

 

Or they could just nut up and make the "Favoured Son of Chaos" actually favoured by chaos.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

Plus Fulgrim, Lucius, characters, detachments, strats, enhancements, fluff, etc.

You already had Lucius, and the only one of the generic characters (Kakophonist) is actually "new". The Lord Exultant is just the Lord reskinned, and I don't consider those to be new units just because every kit NEEDS bespoke rules. 

[01RTB01]

29 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

You already had Lucius, and the only one of the generic characters (Kakophonist) is actually "new". The Lord Exultant is just the Lord reskinned, and I don't consider those to be new units just because every kit NEEDS bespoke rules. 

 

You can consider it what you like, it doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the minis and the rules. You're grasping at straws for an argument (for a change), you're wasting your time frater, don't you tire of it?

[Corswain]

I'll believe in standalone Iron Warriors when I see them but I would definitely be tempted. A Daemon Perturabo shadowing my 30K IVth Legion would be so cool.

[Jukkiz]

Since people keep saying it would be better as full codex

Here, all of them

[Rain]

29 minutes ago, Jukkiz said:

Since people keep saying it would be better as full codex

Here, all of them

 

 

[Evil Eye]

The 3.5E Chaos book is probably the best 40K Codex ever released, along with 4E Tyranids and 3E Orks. And it gets even better with Codex: Eye of Terror (and 3.5E Imperial Guard to do traitor guard with)!

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

The 3.5E Chaos book is probably the best 40K Codex ever released, along with 4E Tyranids and 3E Orks. And it gets even better with Codex: Eye of Terror (and 3.5E Imperial Guard to do traitor guard with)!

2nd Ed chaos codex was a work of art. 

 

3E ork codex chopped a lot of stuff from 2nd Ed and I went on a hiatus because the edition change was so jarring. 

 

However, chaos 3.5 was superb for the time and wasn't really surpassed. The choices were awesome.

[bloodhound23]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

2nd Ed chaos codex was a work of art. 

 

3E ork codex chopped a lot of stuff from 2nd Ed and I went on a hiatus because the edition change was so jarring. 

 

However, chaos 3.5 was superb for the time and wasn't really surpassed. The choices were awesome.

 

Me getting into the game right as the 3.5 Chaos codex was released probably explains a lot of my feelings. Hard to live up to that one, tbf. 

[Tymell]

And here I just finished making my own homebrew Iron Warriors codex for fun. I guess if this comes to pass I can see how mine measures up.

[OnePaulMurray]

One thing I always thought about codexes is that it makes much more sense for Chaos factions to have significant, material rules and stat differences to each other due to the influence of the warp.

 

It's a bit artificial when applying the same to Space Marines that aren't Space Wolves, because the only truly unique units should be Death Company and potentially something for the Raven Guard that involves shadow hopping. Everything else is a wargear option.

 

So I actually think it would be much better from a lore perspective if they divided up the Chaos Marines more, provided they are going to give each faction enough love from a design perspective. 

[TheMawr]

One note upon rereading the rumor ( and having seen a lot of the boole conversations on TGA, as Im often lucky to be online around the time.)

is that when I decipher the way its written compared to other things is that Iron warriors leaving CSM might be a further down the road plan, if not just speculation.

It could be that there is a supplement this edition.. but only because there is no CSM 2.0 codex this edition, and that he is expecting that, like the other 4, this automatically means they will remain seperate going forward. But I dont see it as impossible that the plan for GW is to just roll the IW supplement back in when CSM 11th edition codex comes around.

 

From the combined rumors I take these as most certain and imminent/before 11th edition :

 

-- Perturabo
-- Shontu ( because GW themselves have teased that Lysander might have a chance of revenge against him soon. )
-- Upgrade Sprue(s) ( was also valraks rumor )
-- Obliterators.. updated kit of the current CSM obliterators I think ( I actually think this will just be generic. mostly because I think with the steadfast companions to the obliterators he means the Venomcrawler. )

 

I know Shontu over Honsou might be strange, but I gave it some thought and honsou is a very BL intensive character, and I might be mistaken, but GW seems careful with those in 40k, even when they make miniatures based on them, having the rules as legends. On the other hand miniaturewise, Shontu has the potential to have the presence GW likes to associate with Iron warriors and be able to lead/associate with things like terminators and maybe even obliterators. Basically Shontu more than Honsou would fill the role the other 4 champions have; subtly be what their primarch was before becoming a daemon primarch; Terminator warsmith in this case.

It could always be a case of them both being there though.

 

The other elements are vaguer.. even unique units (pleural) doesnt necessarily mean as big things as they sound. ( on tga generic characters and dual-build kit datasheets are often counted as units as well, and Im also not sure if Boole knows wether the unique units are made through the upgrade sprues or not. )

 

Though I do think there'd be at least a nonterminator Ironwarrior smith ( wether its honsou, generic or both.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeadFingers]

55 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

One note upon rereading the rumor ( and having seen a lot of the boole conversations on TGA, as Im often lucky to be online around the time.)

is that when I decipher the way its written compared to other things is that Iron warriors leaving CSM might be a further down the road plan, if not just speculation.

It could be that there is a supplement this edition.. but only because there is no CSM 2.0 codex this edition, and that he is expecting that, like the other 4, this automatically means they will remain seperate going forward. But I dont see it as impossible that the plan for GW is to just roll the IW supplement back in when CSM 11th edition codex comes around.

 

From the combined rumors I take these as most certain and imminent/before 11th edition :

 

-- Perturabo
-- Shontu ( because GW themselves have teased that Lysander might have a chance of revenge against him soon. )
-- Upgrade Sprue(s) ( was also valraks rumor )
-- Obliterators.. updated kit of the current CSM obliterators I think ( I actually think this will just be generic. mostly because I think with the steadfast companions to the obliterators he means the Venomcrawler. )

 

I know Shontu over Honsou might be strange, but I gave it some thought and honsou is a very BL intensive character, and I might be mistaken, but GW seems careful with those in 40k, even when they make miniatures based on them, having the rules as legends. On the other hand miniaturewise, Shontu has the potential to have the presence GW likes to associate with Iron warriors and be able to lead/associate with things like terminators and maybe even obliterators. Basically Shontu more than Honsou would fill the role the other 4 champions have; subtly be what their primarch was before becoming a daemon primarch; Terminator warsmith in this case.

It could always be a case of them both being there though.

 

The other elements are vaguer.. even unique units (pleural) doesnt necessarily mean as big things as they sound. ( on tga generic characters and dual-build kit datasheets are often counted as units as well, and Im also not sure if Boole knows wether the unique units are made through the upgrade sprues or not. )

 

Though I do think there'd be at least a nonterminator Ironwarrior smith ( wether its honsou, generic or both.)

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say here, but I have to question this part in particular.

Quote

most certain and imminent/before 11th edition

I don't know if I can see GW double dipping releases for Red Corsairs and Iron Warriors all before 11th. I know they both fly under the CSM banner and that you're speculating Iron Warriors will temporarily leave the nest in a supplement/campaign book until they're brought back into the fold in 11th, but I'm still unsure about such a release. Unless you mean something else and I'm just misinterpreting what you mean because, admittedly, it is late and I'm sleep deprived.

 

But with so many rumours floating around about Vashtorr getting units themed after him, cyberdaemons, DarkMech, Chaos Bikers finally seeing the light of day in 11th, etc. I can see that being the edition where Chaos gets an overhaul for their mechanized forces, with the Iron Warriors leading that particular charge. I could even make the connection between this and the rumoured refresh of the humble Rhino, as when GW finally get to that, something will have to be done about the Chaos Rhino as well.

 

Or I could be entirely and horribly wrong about all of this. Time will tell, I suppose. Hopefully we might see at least some partial telling come Friday night? Though I'm still only betting on either Blackheart or a non-Chaos something else entirely. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

Edited yesterday at 02:28 AM by DeadFingers

[TheMawr]

9 minutes ago, DeadFingers said:

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say here, but I have to question this part in particular.

I don't know if I can see GW double dipping releases for Red Corsairs and Iron Warriors all before 11th. I know they both fly under the CSM banner and that you're speculating Iron Warriors will temporarily leave the nest in a supplement/campaign book until they're brought back into the fold in 11th, but I'm still unsure about such a release. Unless you mean something else and I'm just misinterpreting what you mean because, admittedly, it is late and I'm sleep deprived.

 

Maybe need to expand a bit there yes, but first to what I think before why I think that :

 

I dont think this is double dipping seperate armies, but just a spread of releases for Codex Chaos Spacemarines taking the last hurrah slot SoB and AM had previously :
-- A couple of generic CSM releases that are added to the below 2 things, maybe themed around them now however generic nonetheless ( not unlike the raptors update in Shadowhunt )
-- Perturabo + a small couple of Ironwarrior specific things at the end. ( what I meant with supplement wasnt like Space wolves or Dark Angels, but more the couple of 7th edition ones, clan raukaan etc. )

-- Huron blackheart + crew as the smaller release ( at the beginning ?). Specifically I think it will be one of these kind of assymetric HQ units they do a lot of recently, so 1 kit

 

 

But thats just a gut feeling, and probably because when I think about red corsairs, I automatically think about this art (wich gives the vibe ) and a, I think fanart wich also includes a human in there ( but I cant find it right now )

 

 

The reason why I think that :
-- Despite the many rumors, we still have "capacity" left, the last 5-6 months is not just a handful of characters. I think one of the armies gets quite a sizable release, and I dont think its eldar corsairs. making Chaos spacemarines the likelier candidate, especially as it fits the rumors.

Spoiler

I lined up the rumors ( using rough equivalents where we dont know the exact details, although I think the Sisters of battle unit rumor is likely proper Dominions ) its ofcourse not something that can be expected to be 100% predictable.

-- Valrak named both Huron and the Iron warriors upgrade sprue for the end of edition campaign, as well as the warhammer community mention of shontu.

 

9 minutes ago, DeadFingers said:

But with so many rumours floating around about Vashtorr getting units themed after him, cyberdaemons, DarkMech, Chaos Bikers finally seeing the light of day in 11th, etc. I can see that being the edition where Chaos gets an overhaul for their mechanized forces, with the Iron Warriors leading that particular charge. I could even make the connection between this and the rumoured refresh of the humble Rhino, as when GW finally get to that, something will have to be done about the Chaos Rhino as well.

 

Or I could be entirely and horribly wrong about all of this. Time will tell, I suppose. Hopefully we might see at least some partial telling come Friday night? Though I'm still only betting on either Blackheart or a non-Chaos something else entirely. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

 

Yeah same here, I think that wasnt clear in the post.. wether they stay in CSM or not ( I think they do.) I see the Iron warriors element continueing into 11th edition ( similar to how Dark Angels started in 9th editions end of edition campaign with 2 named characters but expanded in 10th )

Valrak also had a red corsair unit rumor with Hunters in the name, but I wonder if its related to the Hounds of Huron, wich would mean CSM bikers this edition. ( just temporarily boxed as Hounds of Huron.)

 

But its all wild speculation connecting dots that are barely visible, hell maybe I will be ( happily ) suprised and the last hurrah is Eldar Corsairs after all. 

 

I hope friday will make some of the dots more visible.

[ZeroWolf]

See, I think the IW stuff is post 11th as so far, GW have stuck to one demon Primarch per edition, and if they want that to continue, then Perty is a great candidate. The issue with IW staying as part of CSM is actually one for the future as GW may not want three Primarchs in one book. They'd either have to stipulate in the rules that an army can have only one Primarch or epic hero in it (stopping people running Abaddon and a Primarch together) or, more likely, shuffle them off into a supplement or seperated codex.

 

However, the ball is squarely in GWs court, and whatever they decide will be the pattern for Word Bearers and Alpha Legion (night Lords are in an interesting place with this as I think they'll be CSM mainstays by virtue of Night Haunter being dead).

 

The loyalist SM chapters yet to receive a Primarch model will be watching cautiously...

[GryphonnePromethean]

I realize this sounds crazy to most people, but I think we already have miniatures for Demon Perturabo and Curze. It's Vashtorr and Lhykis. 

 

Personally, I think there is some complicated time/reality/disassociation thing going on where Ferrus, Perturabo, and Vashtorr are all the same person on some level.  30k Perturabo would want to be a demon that invents himself and owes nothing to the other chaos powers and doesn't deceive.  Then there's a weird throughline in Vashtorr using the ruins of Caliban as a home base where he makes people into demon engines vs Perturabo tricking The Lion into giving him the Ordinatus. Forgebreaker is Ferrus' hammer which Fulgrim gives it to Perturabo for no particular reason and Vashtorr wields the "Hammer of the Soul Forges". I need to re listen to Feat of Iron, but there's some really odd eldari branching futures vision quest stuff in there including IIRC:  Ferrus hearing the phrase "Angel Externinatus" and feeling deja vu, and at one point basically just looking at the camera and saying "I Will Endure" (Purdurabo in latin).

 

There's just a lot of crosstalk there in a way that one could handwaive as just being a pile of 40k-ass nouns, but GW is really good a putting stories together when they want to be and I just think they would have done something notably different with Vashtorr if there wasn't something there. Similarly, I think it's conspicuous not just how little is said in-world about how similar those two Iron-themed primarchs are but also that they seem to be written even closer together in newer fiction like The Primarchs series novellas. 

[TheMawr]

5 minutes ago, GryphonnePromethean said:

I realize this sounds crazy to most people, but I think we already have miniatures for Demon Perturabo and Curze. It's Vashtorr and Lhykis. 

 

wait wait

this Lhykis ?  

 

Now Im curious why you'd think this is conrad kurze 

 

 

[Dr. Clock]

18 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

Now Im curious why you'd think this is conrad kurze 

Yeah, wouldn't it be Fabius Bile? lol

 

In all seriousness, the Vash'torr/Perturabo power pair could be an excellent Dark Mech foundation. Basically they could be rivals and allies, vying with each other to amass enough power to consume the other and become a New God. Basically I like the idea of a Daemon Primarch who is pretty much on the exact same level as their main 'patron' and very much actively seeking to take over the 'domain' as it were. I love an Angry Ron or Red Cyclops as much as the next guy, but this kinda internal conflict is very Chaos in a way that other Cult books somewhat lack (at least overtly). 

 

It would surprise me if GW did a straight up 'this character is actually three other characters in a trenchcoat'. Making Ferrus into Perty or vice versa is gonna be perceived as insulting to one or both of those fanbases. I'm not an Iron Hands guy exactly, but I know if I were I'd be... disillusioned by a development that's like '10 thousand years later they discover he was just a holographic projection of this other jerk.'

 

The consonance between Iron Hands / Iron Warriors works well enough as the classic 'dark twin' deal... I think there's more productive tension created by their conflict than by their 'unification', but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

I don't completely hate the idea of Ferrus' soul basically being inside the hammer the whole time, and now being wielded by a Saint of some kind who knicks it off Perty. Better that than 'He was actually Vash'torr because we can't have more than one fancy hammer in the timeline'.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

[GryphonnePromethean]

2 hours ago, TheMawr said:

 

wait wait

this Lhykis ? 

 

 

 

I'd definitely file that one closer to "fun to think about" than something I'd argue is probably true. 

Putting aside that Primarchs and Exarchs are similar because it's two cultures having the same idea, Lhykhis is exactly where I'd expect  a Curze redemption arc to start. If we accept that Curze is probably in an eldari soulstone then I think the question is what is that soulstone going to power? Maybe a primarch-class justice-themed ambush predator painted the color of a thunderstorm with a red mantle?

 

[LSM]

Off hand thought: my conception of the Iron Warriors (having started in ~99 and then been influenced by the Index Astartes list and Storm of Iron) inherently includes Khorne Berzerkers being thrown into the breach, and copious use of meat Traitor Guard.

 

If this alleged book were to focus just on Iron Warriors marines/motorpool and the New Mechanicum daemon engines, it would feel off to me if it lacked the above things. And yet, if it includes them, it might start to also feel a little bloated?

 

It would be an odd division of Chaos (to me), compared to keeping Iron Warriors in Codex: CSM and then maybe moving the [Damned] units into a book with BadMech as Codex: The Lost & The Damned. (And then having allying rules, etc.) Or just throwing new Dark Mechanicus together with Chaos Knights. (And then having allying rules, etc.)

[Rain]

I really wish GW would actually finish one of the not-DG Cult Legions that they've already spun off instead of spinning off another doomed to be unfinished Chaos faction. They can even finish Thousand Sons. I don't play TS, and they are probably my least liked Traitor Legion overall, but they were spun off first, and could really use some more love. Similarly, Emperor's Children have a comically low number of datasheets, and need something to fill for their lack of Predators, Forgefiends, and Helbrutes. Maybe a nice big corrupted Leviathan dread with sonic cannons and a big doom siren to fill in their lack of ranged vehicle options?

 

Iron Warriors are represented just fine by the CSM book. Disolords, Warpsmiths, Oblits, one can build a very flavorful IW army as-is.