40k 40k Perturabo + Stand-Alone Iron Warriors Codex (RUMOUR)

[Nephaston]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

I really wish GW would actually finish one of the not-DG Cult Legions that they've already spun off instead of spinning off another doomed to be unfinished Chaos faction. They can even finish Thousand Sons. I don't play TS, and they are probably my least liked Traitor Legion overall, but they were spun off first, and could really use some more love. Similarly, Emperor's Children have a comically low number of datasheets, and need something to fill for their lack of Predators, Forgefiends, and Helbrutes. Maybe a nice big corrupted Leviathan dread with sonic cannons and a big doom siren to fill in their lack of ranged vehicle options?

 

Iron Warriors are represented just fine by the CSM book. Disolords, Warpsmiths, Oblits, one can build a very flavorful IW army as-is.

Slight counterpoint; by parsing out legions as their own thing they can allot more release slots to the overall chaos faction per edition. So instead of one release slot for just CSM (plus maybe something for end of edition) they now have 5 release slots per edition for spiky power armour.

Splinter factions losing access to cultists, vehicles, and monsters they all should have access to can be entirely pinned on the rules team, who feel like a bunch of chucklenuts at times.

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Slight counterpoint; by parsing out legions as their own thing they can allot more release slots to the overall chaos faction per edition. So instead of one release slot for just CSM (plus maybe something for end of edition) they now have 5 release slots per edition for spiky power armour.

Splinter factions losing access to cultists, vehicles, and monsters they all should have access to can be entirely pinned on the rules team, who feel like a bunch of chucklenuts at times.

 

Counter-counterpoint:  This ends up amounting to one new character model per spinoff, per edition. The only actual new squad/vehicle that has been added post-launch for any Cult Legion has been the Egyptobots for Thousand Sons, as far as I am aware. That's not so bad for DG, as they already have two unique terminator variants, multiple unique demon engines, and otherwise feel like a complete and unique army, but it's a real issue for the other three Cults. Blame whomever you wish, but GW needs to fill in the existing Cult armies before spinning off another Chaos faction to be dripfed one character per edition.

[irlLordy]

World Eaters also got Goremongers via Kill Team, so releases for the cult legions don't need to strictly tied to codex releases. 

[Nephaston]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Counter-counterpoint:  This ends up amounting to one new character model per spinoff, per edition. The only actual new squad/vehicle that has been added post-launch for any Cult Legion has been the Egyptobots for Thousand Sons, as far as I am aware. That's not so bad for DG, as they already have two unique terminator variants, multiple unique demon engines, and otherwise feel like a complete and unique army, but it's a real issue for the other three Cults. Blame whomever you wish, but GW needs to fill in the existing Cult armies before spinning off another Chaos faction to be dripfed one character per edition.

Imo the alternative then could have been all legions just having the regular lord and jump lord release this edition, though how any freed up resources would have been reallocated is anyone's guess. In essence I do want them to still have access to the CSM stuff, but at least the 4 cult legions kinda also need their own space. It should just be in addition to all the basic stuff. And out of all of GWs little competing subdivisions I guess we can just as well point to the number crunching pencil pushers who need their strict sales allotment numbers, who probably get conniptions when they can't tell which of the 10 or so factions bought which rhino kit.

 

8 hours ago, irlLordy said:

World Eaters also got Goremongers via Kill Team, so releases for the cult legions don't need to strictly tied to codex releases. 

True, though it doesn't quite match the "one unit for each faction each edition" cadence of 40k, and feels more like random bonus allotment depending on what theme GW wants to go. Maybe they roll dice and Imperial Agents simply gets luckiest. What with their 4 kits in the current rotation?

[jimbo1701]

I have always wanted GW to revisit the notion from (IIRC) 7th edition where there is one core book for each chaos and loyalist marines, and then one supplement book for each of them, let’s call them space marine chapters and chaos legions.
 

The supplement book would be comparable in size to the parent book and contain all the datasheets / faction rules and 1-2 detachments for each of the individual legions. Crucially, it would also contain a matrix table for both datasheets and detachments (so if you play black templars for example, you can’t take say scouts / librarians from the core book nor gladius detachment) 

Would mean less release windows though so I doubt he will ever entertain the notion. 

I also feel that eldar should be broken up in a similar way - asuryani for the craft world and aeldari for all the other factions. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, jimbo1701 said:

I have always wanted GW to revisit the notion from (IIRC) 7th edition where there is one core book for each chaos and loyalist marines, and then one supplement book for each of them, let’s call them space marine chapters and chaos legions.
 

The supplement book would be comparable in size to the parent book and contain all the datasheets / faction rules and 1-2 detachments for each of the individual legions. Crucially, it would also contain a matrix table for both datasheets and detachments (so if you play black templars for example, you can’t take say scouts / librarians from the core book nor gladius detachment) 

Would mean less release windows though so I doubt he will ever entertain the notion. 

I also feel that eldar should be broken up in a similar way - asuryani for the craft world and aeldari for all the other factions. 

Depending on structure you also run the risk of all the supplements being simply better than the base book due to having more focused or expanded options in a particular direction. I can't see what advantage there might be to someone running from the base book at that point, so much so, that it's questionable sales practice really.

[jimbo1701]

32 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Depending on structure you also run the risk of all the supplements being simply better than the base book due to having more focused or expanded options in a particular direction. I can't see what advantage there might be to someone running from the base book at that point, so much so, that it's questionable sales practice really.

It wouldn’t be much different from now in that regard, as competitive players tend to pick and choose the best detachments for the army regardless of chapter. My suggestion would be to limit / remove certain detachments and datasheets from the core book to attempt to redress that balance, certainly for the more divergent chapters that tend to have access to more datasheets and detachments than the codex equivalent.
 

It would be, as it is now, a core book of common units and a second optional book of unique units. Newbie players who only want to collect space marines would need just the one book, players who want to play divergent chapters would need two as they do now. It would be 2 release waves rather than the 5+ it is currently. 
 

Using black Templars as an example again, you could remove the gladius / stealth detachment options yet retain the others and add in 2-3 unique datasheets. Equally, you could remove datasheets as they have already in their codex that are either unsuitable for that chapter (librarians and scouts come to mind) or have an equivalent unique unit for that chapter. 

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

It wouldn’t be much different from now in that regard, as competitive players tend to pick and choose the best detachments for the army regardless of chapter. My suggestion would be to limit / remove certain detachments and datasheets from the core book to attempt to redress that balance, certainly for the more divergent chapters that tend to have access to more datasheets and detachments than the codex equivalent.
 

It would be, as it is now, a core book of common units and a second optional book of unique units. Newbie players who only want to collect space marines would need just the one book, players who want to play divergent chapters would need two as they do now. It would be 2 release waves rather than the 5+ it is currently. 
 

Using black Templars as an example again, you could remove the gladius / stealth detachment options yet retain the others and add in 2-3 unique datasheets. Equally, you could remove datasheets as they have already in their codex that are either unsuitable for that chapter (librarians and scouts come to mind) or have an equivalent unique unit for that chapter. 

I'd be most concerned with ending up in the same situation as 9th ed marines, where there really was literally no reason not to use a supplement from how the relics etc stacked up from the main codex. This current implementation is better and I think your suggestion of more sort of hard locks on units and detachments might be about right for the level of identity required.

[Dr. Clock]

20 hours ago, Rain said:

one can build a very flavorful IW army as-is.

Agreed. I think if they do this it's going to actually be a 'new iteration', not just trying to be the IW Legion as it was in 31-40k and Editions 2 and 3... If this is a Perty and Vashtorr book I actually expect it to be closer to Chaos Androids and Robots than Legionaries and Terminators. Further to that, I think the 'faction' might be better as just a 5th (Undivided) option for Chaos Daemons so that those players can make a slide toward using dedicated 40k units on the way to (likely) effective squatting by 12th edition?

 

In any case I'd fully expect them to also be an 'open ally' much like Chaos Knights or Daemons or Cult Marines so that other lists can bring in one or two of the new fun Zords or whatever if they want. As the 'arms dealers of Chaos' vibe was already started by Vash'tor, this could be more like an Agents release than a Marines supplement after all... and I wouldn't be opposed to that, really. I'll be more interested in cool daemon robots if I can just sprinkle them into my Doom WEasels than if I have to start a list from scratch.

 

The cool thing about the 'tech faction allies' vibe is that it'd give us room to play around with conversions for chosen deities and break outside some of the limitations on Cult lists as they are. Basically releasing 3-5 kits of 'friendly tech faction allies' gives all the Chaos lists some more options to fill gaps at the same time, and as a result would tap into any and all Chaos players rather than just a tiny fraction of them. I know that this is cynical and mercenary reasoning, but this is GW at the end of the day. I would buy Vashtorr tomorrow if he could be in WE. He's been on my 'maybe' list for a while, and I'd probably jump in with some Oblits and Mutilators if they could join as well.

 

Heck - as a supplement it could be given 1 detachment for every other Chaos Codex, so that the likely small number of data-sheets is balanced by the presence of those other lists in their entirety. That would certainly be cool and interesting, though it's very unlikely to happen because I don't think they'd want people to feel like they're forced into only 1 or 2 detachment options from the book. It's almost like they should figure out a way to offer codex supplements at lower prices than full codexes!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Galron]

As a player of IW with over 7k of IW models I would kind of ticked if they get the treatment that the cult legions got where they are severely limited in units. I wouldnt mind an expansion and maybe a special IW detachment similar to what the codex marines just got and maybe some additional units returned from the heresy like breachers, basilisks and Arquitors. Some cool terminator lord to direct a bombardment and storm the breach. But if it means cutting off existing models then it likely means they would cut off the vehicles and force the stupid dinobots and that is no Beuno. 

 

I currently run two what I consider classic and iconic IW armies, mass legionnaires and heavy weapons with terminators and landraiders or my actual siege breaker list which is 3 Vindicators, a Typhon, and Legionnaires and cultists. I have zero of the newfangled ugly dinobots and I dont think GW will push either of these play styles with any new IW specific updates. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Galron