40k 40k Perturabo + Stand-Alone Iron Warriors Codex (RUMOUR)

[redmapa]

Wouldnt surprise me if GW decided to make a new Chaos codex based on Dark Mechanicus/Vashtorr/Perturabo alliance, now that Demons arent a thing and they will all be tied to a legion in some way it does make sense to put all these factions as one codex if the rumors of DarkMech that have been making the rounds for a while now turn out to be true. 

[Valkyrion]

Codex Iron Warriors - your Dark Mech, daemon engine, obliterator faction

Codex Black Legion - your non denominational 'bad' space marines

Codex Word Bearers - your daemon summoning, daemon integrated faction

Codex Alpha Legion - use the rules and models from any other codex

Codex Night Lords - ???

[Evil Eye]

I really don't think this works. Iron Warriors are cool, don't get me wrong, but their own entire Codex, really? Honestly I have mixed feelings on even the Cult Legions getting their own books; I feel like a warband descended from/affiliated with the actual Emperor's Children should be different from Slaanesh-worshipping renegade warbands for example, and if they were all as unique and well-supported as Death Guard I'd say it was well worth the splitting, but they really, really weren't. In the case of the Emperor's Children in particular they barely have any units, Noise Marines are now just Havoc counterparts, you can't take sonic weapons in normal Chaos Space Marine- sorry, Tormentor or Infractor squads, thus neutering the actual meaningful differences between them and "normal" Slaaneshi CSM, and compared to Death Guard who got a whole array of daemon engines AND a cool self-propelled artillery piece, they haven't gotten ANY kind of heavy support or vehicle units, or really anything at all beyond basic infantry models. We didn't even get any kind of cultists/chaff!

 

My point being I can see Iron Warriors getting exclusive rights to formerly universal CSM units (Warpsmiths, Obliterators and Vindicators most likely), screwing over non-IW players that ran those, with very little in the way of actually unique or interesting units to make their roster stand out aside from Perturabo as the obligatory massive centrepiece model. Realistically, a Traitor Legions style supplement for Chaos Space Marines with extra rules for the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords would have been fine. A full Codex is actually going to make things worse for Iron Warriors AND other Chaos Space Marines.

 

On the plus side, maybe we'll get some better plastic Obliterators at long last. The metal/resin ones never quite did it for me and the current plastic ones (of which there are a grand total of two possible sculpts) look more like baby Helbrutes than anything else. As opposed to this.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children need more models for their ranges - unqiue Vehicles, Dreads, more infanry options, etc etc etc

No, they just need to be incorporated back into the main CSM codex so they're not missing key models they've had access to for years. 

[Mogger351]

37 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

No, they just need to be incorporated back into the main CSM codex so they're not missing key models they've had access to for years. 

I take it you'd be on board with a supplement system?

 

Honestly I'd rather they used the space they carved out to make them unique rather than merge back in and exist as "oh, its thats one detachment with that one guy that's meant to represent my legion who is now otherwise identical to the other 8 legions with all our perfect clone units".

[Xirix]

If I recall, some of the books (or maybe it was just a rumour) described Pert's Daemon form as essentially the Logos ballooning to Dreadnought proportions and his actual body being little more than a skeleton. If that's what we're going to get, then yes please. They could make that so amazingly badass.

Some proper Obliterators would be nice too, more in line with the art posted above would be perfect. I dislike the current ones, especially the stupid fleshy bits, particulary the comical feet on one of them.

Edited 19 hours ago by Xirix

[Rain]

Cult Legions make a lot of sense as supplements, as they have built-in limitations. The primary argument against supplements is that having divergent factions be "base book plus" makes the base book faction redundant. If Blood Angels have everything that Ultramarines have, but also Sang Guard, Death Company, etc. why play Ultramarines? 

 

Cult Legions solve this issue by being naturally limited to units of their patron's mark, while the base book can mix and match, as well as include unmarked/unaligned units like Obliterators, which creates an inherent tradeoff. Given how little support GW gives Cult Legions as independent armies, this would probably have been the better route, but it is what it is. 

[HeadlessCross]

5 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I take it you'd be on board with a supplement system?

There are pros and cons to the Supplement system. I like aspects of it being a way to bring in new units, but it's also significant bloat of rules and paper (with the way GW does it anyway). I vastly prefer how the 5th edition Loyalist Scum and 6th edition CSM codices did it in mixing up various factions into a singular book and mixing/matching "unique" models to make the army you want. However, there's too many people that want bespoke rules and codices for EVERYTHING, which is obnoxious. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Cult Legions make a lot of sense as supplements, as they have built-in limitations.

"Limitations" that are arbitrary for what are basically non-cohesive armies loosely connected in lore. "Death Guard" players lost access to several units they were allowed to use for several years because, what, we need random limitations?

[Rain]

I don't think you really parsed what I was saying, or you are just looking for an e-fight. Having the Cults as supplements would allow them to keep the basic common motor pool, and what should be universal units like Terminator Lords; but they would still not be "Black Legion but with More Rules and Options" because each Cult would only be able to take its own cult troops, and models that are marked by its patron. 

[Marshal Loss]

Absolutely love Iron Warriors and CSM of all stripes, and I'd be excited to see a Daemon Perturabo & new Obliterators, but I don't want to see them occupy their own codex. They're one of the quintessential Undivided Legions and breaking them out into a separate book entirely feels like a road to unnecessary bloat and would leave the main CSM book looking hollow, particularly if they choose to repeat the treatment in the future. I just don't see the need. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

6 hours ago, Domhnall said:

Actual proper, 100%, not in anyway fake leak of the Codex cover showing our man of optimism!

 

 

 

Thats one for the UK 80's kids

Rumour mill says this is one of his traits:

Underappreciated:

If your opponent doesn´t compliment you at least once during your turn then Perturabo becomes [SULLEN] for the rest of the game.

 

Sullen (Status Effect):

Halve all characteristics of a model suffering from this status effect.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I don't think you really parsed what I was saying, or you are just looking for an e-fight. Having the Cults as supplements would allow them to keep the basic common motor pool, and what should be universal units like Terminator Lords; but they would still not be "Black Legion but with More Rules and Options" because each Cult would only be able to take its own cult troops, and models that are marked by its patron. 

You're then back to having t4 deathguard lords and so on. Part of the charm of an independent codex is that the "generic" units actually gain some flavour, in theory.

[Jukkiz]

please... Give us proper Honsou... 

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Mogger351 said:

You're then back to having t4 deathguard lords and so on. Part of the charm of an independent codex is that the "generic" units actually gain some flavour, in theory.

 

This is a fair point. The supplement would need to have something along the lines of "If your Army Faction is Death Guard, the Mark of Nurgle has the following additional benefits for units selected out of Codex: Chaos Space Marines" with various modifications to bring those units in line with the unique units, so that a Death Guard Lord is not less resilient than his rank and file Plague Marine troopers as was the case during the dark times of 4th through 7th. Anyway it's all a moot point, GW has invested too much into splitting off the Cult Legions to turn them into Supplements without some very significant jank. Then again...

[HeadlessCross]

18 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

You're then back to having t4 deathguard lords and so on. Part of the charm of an independent codex is that the "generic" units actually gain some flavour, in theory.

That's not why we got T4 Chaos Lords, because Marks used to handle that sorta thing. 

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Cult Legions solve this issue by being naturally limited to units of their patron's mark, while the base book can mix and match, as well as include unmarked/unaligned units like Obliterators, which creates an inherent tradeoff. Given how little support GW gives Cult Legions as independent armies, this would probably have been the better route, but it is what it is. 

I'd agree here; again, having the ability to properly differentiate between a Death Guard army proper and a Nurgle-aligned but otherwise unrelated Chaos army (The Purge, for instance) would be nice. And to be fair we sort of have that, it's just that Death Guard are the only one of the four that actually got the love and attention to really justify a whole Codex- the rest have less content than had they been supplements to the main book.

 

At the risk of being a broken vox-disc, The 3.5E book handled it quite well; all 8 original Legions had distinct rules to allow you to play them without just making a standard Black Legion "vanilla" style army irrelevant, as all of them cut off access to certain units. Death Guard could only take one squad of Plague Marines in a Rhino as a Fast Attack choice, for instance- and it was also possible to run a fluffy non Death Guard Nurgle-affiliated army too, which lost some of the benefits of going Death Guard but also had less restrictions on army composition. And if memory serves the only truly busted option was, ironically enough, Iron Warriors, primarily because people abused the hell out of Obliterators with no 0-1 hard cap if you chose them.

[Dark Shepherd]

5 hours ago, redmapa said:

Wouldnt surprise me if GW decided to make a new Chaos codex based on Dark Mechanicus/Vashtorr/Perturabo alliance, now that Demons arent a thing and they will all be tied to a legion in some way it does make sense to put all these factions as one codex if the rumors of DarkMech that have been making the rounds for a while now turn out to be true. 

Daemonic Institute of Technology? :)

 

I think GW is having a supply meeting demand problem so they wont want to add an extra codex release especially a fringey/thin codex especially if Dark Mech and maybe Beastmen/LATD are coming

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

No, they just need to be incorporated back into the main CSM codex so they're not missing key models they've had access to for years. 

 

I wish, but at this point we are in for another expansion of the books, even if the rosters are anemic. 

 

Which is comical, as the books are not worth the cost at all, hardly worth the cost of the paper, considering they are outdated immediately.

 

Dire, just dire.

Edited 16 hours ago by Scribe

[Valkyrion]

Perturabo's imminent, or not, arrival, shouldn't really lead to rules discussion, because what is the point? 

It will be a new edition, there will be new rules, this will be a new unit.  

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

That's not why we got T4 Chaos Lords, because Marks used to handle that sorta thing. 

That ship sailed and frankly a nurgle lord maybe isn't the same in the same league as a death guard lord for further divisions.

 

Honestly I think I stand by the separate books, but they need daemons integrating properly and half a dozen kits adding to them all to replace units that get cut.

21 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Perturabo's imminent, or not, arrival, shouldn't really lead to rules discussion, because what is the point? 

It will be a new edition, there will be new rules, this will be a new unit.  

It's relevant because splintering a codex down is a big change.

[01RTB01]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

No, they just need to be incorporated back into the main CSM codex so they're not missing key models they've had access to for years. 

 

As an emperor's children player I appreciate them trying to have substantial differences to the main CSM book rather than being "CSM +1".

 

I feel for those with long standing collections. However, moving forwards, making the traitor legions different to each other is only a good thing. Diversification of playstyles is positive and I wouldn't want to play against death guard/ thousand sons/ etc and the play experience being the same otherwise is there any point?

 

I staunchly wouldn't want EC folded back in. Not now we've had a taste of freedom. However, it'd be in keeping with the Legion I guess.

[Wispy]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Whilst I have no issue with this if it's true, and a Perty model would be awesome for 40k, I really feel that GW need to further support the existing divergent Legions.

 

The World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children need more models for their ranges - unqiue Vehicles, Dreads, more infanry options, etc etc etc

I agree here.

 

I think one of the big problems is a Codex CSM line doesn't really support the wider CSM derivatives very well like Codex Space Marine does for the divergent chapters, not just with the rules but also with the model lines. Like I can throw some Jump Pack Intercessors or Helblasters into a Space Wolves army no problem and sell it with just a paint job (even if some light kitbashing would be encouraged) but you can't throw some Havoks or Raptors in a Thousand Sons or Deathguard list.

 

edit: I presume this is probably the reason the daemon armies got folded into their particular Cult CSMs actually... CSM can support an Iron Warrior line Codex>Dark Angels/Blood Angels sort of way while the other Cult Legions are going to be largely under a god umbrella.

Edited 14 hours ago by Wispy

[Jscarlos18]

8 hours ago, Lord Abaia said:

With the non-causality of events in the warp, it would be possible for Vashotorr to elevate Perturabo before he ascends to become a chaos god.

 

But that raises questions about Lorgar? He really was all about chaos as a pantheon, I can't see him devoting himself to one god at the expense of the others. Maybe this will be addressed in the Scouring books.

Doesn't Perturabo has an alliance with Vashtorr already in the lore? Maybe like you said GW will make it so thanks to time being non-linear in the warp he future-to-past ascends him before becoming a god?

 

Lorgar maybe goes for Dark King? I agree his allegiance to Chaos in all its aspects could present a serious problem if GW makes Undivided ascension no longer feasable after Be'lakor betraying the big 4.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

Not now we've had a taste of freedom. 

Freedom of what? You got Legionaires on two separate datasheets and Possessed But With Swords.