4th Edition - help with close combat weapon interpretation

[Lost2Requiem]

Hi everyone. 
 

Been playing 4th a fair bit, run into something that flies in the face of accepted wisdom, but now I can’t unsee it!

 

The rules for close combat weapons on page 46 of the BRB state that “… swords and pistols (or similar hand weapons) gain the wielder an additional close combat attack.”

 

So. You have a sword, you get +1 attack. 
 

The rules on page 40 state “+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons … have an extra +1 Attack for every turn of close combat”

 

So. You have 2 swords, you get +2 attack. 
 

This is not how it was played, it was always assumed that you had to have 2 single-handed weapons to get +1 attack, a close combat weapon by itself didn’t do anything (unless it was a special one). 
 

Has anyone run into this before? The main argument I get is “that’s not how it was played”, which is fine. Is this just classic GW rules writing…?

 

Thanks all. 

[Mazer Rackham]

1 hour ago, Lost2Requiem said:

Hi everyone. 
 

Been playing 4th a fair bit, run into something that flies in the face of accepted wisdom, but now I can’t unsee it!

 

The rules for close combat weapons on page 46 of the BRB state that “… swords and pistols (or similar hand weapons) gain the wielder an additional close combat attack.”

 

So. You have a sword, you get +1 attack. 

 

No. If you have only one sword, you get the attacks on your profile.

 

1 hour ago, Lost2Requiem said:

The rules on page 40 state “+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons … have an extra +1 Attack for every turn of close combat”

 

So. You have 2 swords, you get +2 attack. 

 

No, you only get the one.

 

You had 1 sword from before, now you have 2 swords = +1 Attack.

 

1 hour ago, Lost2Requiem said:

This is not how it was played, it was always assumed that you had to have 2 single-handed weapons to get +1 attack, a close combat weapon by itself didn’t do anything (unless it was a special one). 

 

This is correct.

 

1 hour ago, Lost2Requiem said:

Has anyone run into this before? The main argument I get is “that’s not how it was played”, which is fine. Is this just classic GW rules writing…?

 

Thanks all. 

 

The rules are not in conflict, nor are they cumulative.

 

If you have a BP or CCW, that means you can make attacks. If you have a second BP/CCW, that means you get +1 Attack to your profile.

 

Never seen any instances of doubling up.

 

I'll stand to be corrected, but this is my reading.

[Lost2Requiem]

Thanks for the reply.

Your response is totally what I expected as that is primary interpretation, but that doesn’t appear to be what the text actually says.

 

Under the first point, about “swords and pistols…” etc it says that if you have a close combat weapon (examples given) you get an extra attack. It does not state that it’s an additional CCW that is required. 

 

Later on you mention “if you have a BP or CCW” you make one attack - how does that work with Marines from the 4th Ed codex that only come with a bolter? Can they not attack? If they just attack using the Strength on their profile, is that assumed to be fists etc? So they have zero close combat weapons. 

 

If that’s the case, Marines from the DA Codex come with a bolt pistol, but no other CCW - so under the most common interpretation that is a useless load out, since the bolt pistol does nothing by itself, you need two ‘single-handed weapons’ to gain the +1 Attack.

 

if the written text is applied, then a DA Marine gets 1 Attack on its base profile, +1 for the bolt pistol (a CCW). If it also had a chaisnword, it would get a further +1 for having two “one-handed weapons”. 
 

Also, just to clarify, this is an interesting discussion to me that a new player to our group raised, I’m not trying to WAAC 4th edition!!

[Mazer Rackham]

 

23 minutes ago, Lost2Requiem said:

Later on you mention “if you have a BP or CCW” you make one attack - how does that work with Marines from the 4th Ed codex that only come with a bolter? Can they not attack? If they just attack using the Strength on their profile, is that assumed to be fists etc? So they have zero close combat weapons. 

 

Yes, that's my mistake, I couldn't remember if they had a knife or not. Yes, they have to do punching/kicking/headbutts!

 

23 minutes ago, Lost2Requiem said:

If that’s the case, Marines from the DA Codex come with a bolt pistol, but no other CCW - so under the most common interpretation that is a useless load out, since the bolt pistol does nothing by itself, you need two ‘single-handed weapons’ to gain the +1 Attack.

 

The BP is there to give you a shot to soften the target before assault, as you can't fire the bolter and charge. It gives the Marine nothing extra in melee, since he doesn't have 2 CCW (or what counts as a CCW).

 

23 minutes ago, Lost2Requiem said:

if the written text is applied, then a DA Marine gets 1 Attack on its base profile, +1 for the bolt pistol (a CCW). If it also had a chaisnword, it would get a further +1 for having two “one-handed weapons”.

 

I disagree, I think P.40 quite clearly states you need two weapons for +1 Attack, and I think P.46 is merely offering a descriptor of what weapons are commonly modelled under a catch-all.

 

23 minutes ago, Lost2Requiem said:

Also, just to clarify, this is an interesting discussion to me that a new player to our group raised, I’m not trying to WAAC 4th edition!!

 

Well, it's a dead edition, so how you rule on it is completely up to you as long as you have fun.

[Trokair]

 

The bit on page 46 states:

Quote

 

Close Combat Weapons

(Chainswords / Axes/ Pistols, ETC)

There is a bewildering array of close combat weapons, all of which confer no bonus to the Strength of the combatants. However, swords and pistols (or similar hand weapons) gain the wilder and additional close combat attack. A Plasma pistol can be uses as a close combat weapon, though it confers no Strength bonus or particular armour penetration advantage.  

 

I have added bold emphasis, it is saying if you have two close combat weapons you get one extra attack. The and is the important bit here. It is not you have 1 sword that gives +1 attack, it is you have 1 sword and 1 pistol (or any other one handed close combat weapon) that gives +1 attack.

 

This matches with page 40

 

Quote

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) have an extra +1 Attack for every turn of combat including the first. Models with more than  two weapons gain no additional benefit – you only get one extra attack regardless of weather you have two or more single handed weapons.

 

 

 

The only instant of that not being the case that I can think of (and it might have been a 3^rd edition or 5^th edition thing, can’t remember for sure) was certain Tyranid creatures that could get +2 attacks, in that case because they had 2 sets of 2 close combat weapons (i.e. 4 arms all with a close combat weapon). The Tyranid army or weapon rule specifically allowed this, and I want to say it only allowed this when using 2 sets of 2 normal close combat weapons and not any weapon with other special rules.