Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Orange Knight]

19 minutes ago, JeffJedi said:

Clearly they are off to Legends next. ;)

 

Depends how good the shields are, and depends how much they cost.

It might be better to run large, cheap squads. Remains to be seen

 

Edit:

As for other armies becoming stronger. This might not be the case. If Marines are going up in cost, GW might simply want them to be more distinctive from the baseline human, tau and eldar armies.
I imagine Votann and Sisters will be T4, due to their power armour.

Edited 13 hours ago by Orange Knight

[jimbo1701]

4 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

Also just now wondering, with the tactical squad now gone from the battlefields of the 42nd Millennium, the Age of Darkness is now exploring the post-Codex era of the Age of Strife. I wonder if we are going to see them resurface there?

Valrak spoke of a scouring tie in model range - I don’t recall if this was speculation or based on his rumour sources though. Perfect way to reintroduce the classic marine army structure with updated Aquila armour. 

[Magos Takatus]

Apart from the okay looking models the only thing I really consider positive here is that if GW decided to scale creep space marines into light vehicles then at least it leaves some space to distinguish heavier than baseline troops like Skitarii with T4 to represent that 1/3 of their body is made of metal. However, until every army gets their codex updated marines are going to be insufferable. Layer in the buffs they inevitably get and I bet Knights players will have to think twice about leaving models too close to Intercessors. If the basic bolt rifle can get up to Str6 D2 then heavy bolt rifles are probably going to end up cutting down War Walkers and Killa Kans without issue, and every 10-man  squad of marines is going to be a boss encounter.

 

Even if the new rules come with an increase in points I am feeling a bit tired of every other army just feeling like target practice for marines players. I just hope Aeldari get their 3-shot Starcannons back now.

 

It feels like a couple of editions ago marines went to 2 wounds as standard and now they get +1T and their guns get +1Str +1Damage. Give it another couple of editions and they will be T8, 4 wounds and get the titanic keyword. 

 

As for the Legends stuff, my condolences. Getting your toys taken away always sucks. Some of my Legends models don't even have Legends rules anymore in 11th. I have to look to New Recruit to use a 490 point Skathatch Wraithknight because everything other than Titans have been stripped out of Eldar Legends in the app. Having Suppressors counting as Inceptors is a pretty poor fit and it feels insane that the Hammerfall Bunker is being removed already. I think they need to periodically update Legends datasheets even if they don't re-balance them as regularly as mainline units. Many players consider it a graveyard for abandoned datasheets because a lot of the time GW treats it exactly like that. If Legends datasheets aren't updated to include new keywords for a new edition then old Legends datasheets are useless and you might as well just create your own house rules for units from scratch and circumvent Legends entirely.

 

Apologies for this very negative sounding post but considering the state of support for old models and every new edition giving space marines another BS reason to power creep their way out of everyone else's grasp I am tired. People often complain that 40k forces don't look like armies anymore but I can hardly blame people when small arms are getting pointed at T5, 2W and 3+ save models with And They Shall Know No Armour Modifiers layered on top. No wonder people load up on tanks and mechs and stuff, most armies' infantry-based heavy weapons don't feel that heavy anymore.

[Mogger351]

27 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Depends how good the shields are, and depends how much they cost.

It might be better to run large, cheap squads. Remains to be seen

 

Edit:

As for other armies becoming stronger. This might not be the case. If Marines are going up in cost, GW might simply want them to be more distinctive from the baseline human, tau and eldar armies.
I imagine Votann and Sisters will be T4, due to their power armour.

 

You need to do something to the none-meq though because unless the game is set to make them all hordes with pea shooters, this is a problem. A pulse weapon back 8 editions ago was special because it was longer range and stronger than a bolter. Wounding marines on a 3+ from afar but being made of paper in melee was the entire design ethos for tau infantry.

 

Where is that now?

[Magos Takatus]

3 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

 

You need to do something to the none-meq though because unless the game is set to make them all hordes with pea shooters, this is a problem. A pulse weapon back 8 editions ago was special because it was longer range and stronger than a bolter. Wounding marines on a 3+ from afar but being made of paper in melee was the entire design ethos for tau infantry.

 

Where is that now?

Same with Skitarii Rangers. Comparative firepower to a bolter but longer effective range, which made sense considering the long-barrelled design of the weapon. Now standard issue bolters make them look ridiculous.

[Karhedron]

15 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

intercessors actual rules look interesting too..

+1 to hit with ranged attacks when on an objective or attacking an enemy on an objective

being able to perform actions and shoot 

being able to perform actions even if battleshocked or engaged

 

Yes, definitely interesting but it will be a shame to see sticky Objectives go. This slightly reduces the value of Intercessors in a "Take and Hold" Dispositions but increases them in a couple of others. I can definitely see a couple of 5-man squads roving the battlefield.

[Tastyfish]

51 minutes ago, Magos Takatus said:

Same with Skitarii Rangers. Comparative firepower to a bolter but longer effective range, which made sense considering the long-barrelled design of the weapon. Now standard issue bolters make them look ridiculous.

Both the Tau and AdMech example are still looking at this from the point of view of the marines being the standard benchmark.

A Skitarii would seem equally ridiculous holding a Astartes scale bolt rifle - but if marines now cost twice as much as rangers, the galvanic rifle only needs to be half as good for their shooting power to be roughly comparable.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in lethality anyway - if only to make the recon guard/endless swarm builds less viable

[Lord Marshal]

12 hours ago, roryokane said:

Can… can we go back? Whatever GW was doing during the Black Books/IA era is what it should be.

 

The Black Books mostly released during 7th edition, so that's a Monkey's Paw if ever I saw one. 

 

It was also the height of the 'okay we're running out of niches for Marines. What about a Space Marine INSIDE a Space Marine?' releases, prior to the Primaris reset.

 

(Selfishly I'd like to have seen Forge World take a swing at Votann though).

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Lord Marshal

[Mogger351]

6 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

Both the Tau and AdMech example are still looking at this from the point of view of the marines being the standard benchmark.

A Skitarii would seem equally ridiculous holding a Astartes scale bolt rifle - but if marines now cost twice as much as rangers, the galvanic rifle only needs to be half as good for their shooting power to be roughly comparable.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in lethality anyway - if only to make the recon guard/endless swarm builds less viable

Well I doubt intercessors are going up to 170 points for 5 from 80.

 

But when the skitarii are now both 33% less likely to wound and can now be hurt on 2s in return it's going to be awkward.

 

I get wanting marines to be more elite and in lower numbers, but doing it via robbing other factions of their historic interactions with them and telling them it's tough luck isn't good for the game.

 

I don't know the numbers but unless marines shuffle to be basically what custodes are now (who will in turn get a stat boost and shrink on the table top accordingly), they'll either be too dominant to none marines, or it'll force anything not a marine to get huge point cuts and just be a meaningless horde.

 

Also, pour one out for hellblasters.

[Rhavien]

While talking about intercessor damage output please consider that they do not double their bolter shots anymore like with their old datasheet. They are to two shots at 24" or three at 12". They also lost 6" max range.

[Mogger351]

33 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

While talking about intercessor damage output please consider that they do not double their bolter shots anymore like with their old datasheet. They are to two shots at 24" or three at 12". They also lost 6" max range.

On the smaller tables I don't think 30" ranges really mattered that much, the saturation profile is still more shots that other mainline bolters get largely, it's admittedly mostly irrelevant to t3, still an upgrade into t4 and the heavy s6 d2 balances out some of the loss into t3 and makes them edge superiority back against their immediate peers.

 

Overall I'd say they're slightly better. Bolt rifles alone for example into a crisis unit have gone from 4.5 to either 6 wounds on the heavy at max range or ~3.5 on the saturation out of rapid fire.

 

They now go from slightly over 2 damage on a big knight to 3ish on the heavy.

 

Ironically they go from 6.75 wounds against marines with the 40 shots to flat 6 with the heavy profile outside 12".

 

So largely the same if not a gentle increase in places based on situation ability.

 

I expect this will get ironed out with lethal hits galvanic rifles, s6 pulse weapons, knights going back up in toughness and so on. But it sucks until that happens.

[Dark Shepherd]

13 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

I'm a big fan of the idea of marine armies getting smaller and more elite, but 11th is already feeling like GW are going to inevitably go way too far with stat/codex creep. Guess time will tell. But it's good to see they've learned from the farce that was CSM's nearly 20 month wait for their second wound back in 9th. 

GW made a rod for their own back with smaller (recommended) board sizes, by adding that to bigget models AND increased model count

 

But hey, think we can bank on new Preds and Vindicators after the new rhino

Edited 10 hours ago by Dark Shepherd

[Evil Eye]

17 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

If by paying the price you mean "made record sales and record profits" then I guess they have...

 

Your daily reminder GW nearly went under shortly after 8th launched and it was Contrast that saved them. At least, according to Chris Peach.

Edited 6 hours ago by Evil Eye
Adding citation.

[Lexington]

Disappointed that Intercessors aren’t getting Special/Heavy Weapons to fully emulate old Tac Squads. Really thought they might go there this time around.

[Jings]

7 minutes ago, Lexington said:

Disappointed that Intercessors aren’t getting Special/Heavy Weapons to fully emulate old Tac Squads. Really thought they might go there this time around.

 

Really beggers belief. I think I'll be modelling all the now quite frankly insane Grenade Launchers as old Plasma Guns though seeing as the heavy profile about matches. 

 

Personally quite a big fan of the Stat changes though. I think it's a good step towards increasing granularity between faction infantry provided GW can stop themselves from just flat moving everything bar the a guard to T4 but we'll see. 

[Mr Farson]

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

[Mogger351]

5 minutes ago, Mr Farson said:

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

To be fair this level of marine fan service is up there with HH anyway.

[Crimson Longinus]

I think bumping the marine stats makes certain amount of sense. The ceiling of ten in the stats was lifted quite a while ago, yet marines have been stuck just one point above basic guardsmen in most stats. This created a ceiling how some other units that should be perhaps stronger (catachans) or tougher (skitarii) couldn't, because then they would be at the marine territory. So creating this middle step between normal humans and marines is potentially a good thing. (Though damage two still is a mistake.)

 

But these sort of paradigm shift in keep-your-old-codices edition will create the awkward mismatch between newer and older codices, and it is rather feels-bad time for the older books. I've been building my Eldar and they're the army I've been practicing 11th with, but they're in sorry state now and marines and orks being supercharged this way makes the elves feel even more pathetic. Supposedly elite Aspect warriors are so massively behind the marines now that it really saps my desire to use them. 

[01RTB01]

25 minutes ago, Mr Farson said:

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

There was a huge difference there. One was an outstanding game, well loved and sorely missed. The other was 3rd edition. 

[Lord Marshal]

53 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

There was a huge difference there. One was an outstanding game, well loved and sorely missed. The other was 3rd edition. 

 

Nah, much like 2nd edition Heresy, as soon as we get 4th/Scouring, 3rd edition will immediately go from The Great Satan into Sovlfvl Flawed Masterpiece. 

[nodnol88]

I posted this in the other Legends thread, but the Rhino is showing as “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Coming sooner rather than later? 

[Marshal Reinhard]

A redone rhino would be relevant to my interests. especially if just slightly bigger

[Orange Knight]

The Dreadnought has now been added to the list of units moving to Legends.

[Old-Four-Arms]

18 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

t6 termies, t5 marines, its getting out of hand now

 

Power creep on steroids

 

 

I still remember when Space Marines went from T3 to T4 (UK WD129).

 

Good old times...

[Jukkiz]

30 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

A redone rhino would be relevant to my interests. especially if just slightly bigger

"GW: We heard you and added 100% pricehike to og rhino, but you now get it slightly longer. No more annoying opening backdoor, front armor, side doors or top hatches. Everything molded in 6 easy pieces that you can build and paint in an hour to haul your new Tactical marines™ across battlefields"