IS Lion El Adjacent to Lion O?

[Adeptekon]

So like at least a few of us I can't get Lion-O out of my head when hearing Lion El. I've heard some commentary which I can no longer locate which purports the name changes for the Lion had something to do with the T-cats IP, but I cannot find the link documentated.

 

What it appears to be is just a coincidence that may or may not have a nod to popular culture built into 40k's parody side. In fact whether it's capitializing off Lion-O (worked on me) or it is one of those pop-culture mysteries that have more than one origin it doesn't seem to matter and the answer could both be yes a historical Poet and a Thundercat.

 

How about you? Can you discuss Lion El without hearing someone call Lion-O's name? 

Edited Sunday at 03:57 PM by Adeptekon
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[Lathe Biosas]

Lion El'Jonson's name comes from the 19th century poet Lionel Johnson, famous for writing the poem The Dark Angel.

[Adeptekon]

2 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

Lion El'Jonson's name comes from the 19th century poet Lionel Johnson, famous for writing the poem The Dark Angel.

Right, but that was the inspiration for the first iteration of the Lion's name.

[Lathe Biosas]

First interation? I can't find anything that they were later inspired by a cartoon cat from 1985...

 

Now if you'd said Settra from the Tomb Kings was inspired by Mumm-Ra I could get on board...

Edited Sunday at 04:28 PM by Lathe Biosas

[Griefbringer]

Adeptekon, what is this claimed name change you are referring to?

 

I am aware that GW designers in the 1980's drew influences from a lot of sources, though I am not aware period TV cartoons like Thundercats or He-Man having had much or a role. Later generations of designers may have been differently affected, especially when it comes to fantasy terrain items - some of which may have drawn some inspiration from Castle Grayskull.

 

As for possible similarities between El'Jonson and Jervis Johnson (one of the studio members), I have no idea if this is just a coincidence or inside joke.

[Adeptekon]

35 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

First interation? I can't find anything that they were later inspired by a cartoon cat from 1985...

 

Now if you'd said Settra from the Tomb Kings was inspired by Mumm-Ra I could get on board...

"Lyyn Elgonsen", "Lynel Jacobsen or Jonsen" according to the earlier references I've searched up. I can't confirm them because I don't have the Rogue Trader or White Dwarf mag that states it.

[Adeptekon]

4 minutes ago, Griefbringer said:

Adeptekon, what is this claimed name change you are referring to?

 

I am aware that GW designers in the 1980's drew influences from a lot of sources, though I am not aware period TV cartoons like Thundercats or He-Man having had much or a role. Later generations of designers may have been differently affected, especially when it comes to fantasy terrain items - some of which may have drawn some inspiration from Castle Grayskull.

 

As for possible similarities between El'Jonson and Jervis Johnson (one of the studio members), I have no idea if this is just a coincidence or inside joke.

Oh boy! Then I may need to make another topic to go down that rabbit hole! 

[Griefbringer]

13 hours ago, Adeptekon said:

"Lyyn Elgonsen", "Lynel Jacobsen or Jonsen" according to the earlier references I've searched up. I can't confirm them because I don't have the Rogue Trader or White Dwarf mag that states it.

 

I do have the original Rogue Trader book, and after some digging I found a small background snippet from page 138 that mentions Lyyg Elgonsen of Dark Angels. Partial quote:

 

"... The feast celebrates the founding of the Chapter by Lyyn Elgonsen at the beginning of the Imperial Crusades almost ten thousand years ago. The Dark Angels are honoured as the first Marine Chapter. ... The Cup of Retribution used in the ritual is said to be the actual vessel from which the Emperor drank at the original founding of the Chapter. ... "

 

The original Rogue Trader book does not mention Horus Heresy, primarchs, chaos or daemons (though it has other kinds of nasty warp entities). These made their appearance in the Realms of Chaos books a bit later. Thus, in the text above, Dark Angels are referred to as the first chapter rather than first legion. 

 

However, ignoring the chapter/legion issue, but otherwise interpreting the reference from Rogue Trader literally, and comparing it to the later material about primarchs, it seems to me that Lion El'Jonson and Lyyn Elgonsen are two different persons with similar names. When the legion was founded on Terra before the start of the Great Crusade, Lion El'Jonson was not present (being stranded in Caliban). Lyyn Elgonsen could thus be one of the early astartes (non-primarch) present on Terra, who was tasked with organising a number of his geneseed-brothers into a fighting organisation ("founding a legion").

 

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As for Lion El'Jonson versus Jervis Johnson, I will have to point out that Jervis was amongst the main authors for the first three 40K codex books that covered Dark Angels, but he does not appear in the author list for the Rogue Trader book. According to the book "Dice Men", Jervis was originally working in the Games Workshop London office, while Rick Priestley (the main author of Rogue Trader) was in Nottingham where the Citadel Miniatures production was based. In 1986, the London operations of GW were closed down, and Jervis moved to Nottingham where some of his early work includes Blood Bowl 2nd edition (which even has his name in box cover!), and soon after that Adeptus Titanicus / Space Marine games which really fleshed out the whole Heresy setting after the first Realms of Chaos book.

 

It seems that primarch Lion El'Jonson appears in the setting around the time when Jervis Johnson started working with it. This might either be a coincidence, or an inside joke by the more established 40K authors on Jervis expense.

[N1SB]

6 hours ago, Griefbringer said:

However, ignoring the chapter/legion issue, but otherwise interpreting the reference from Rogue Trader literally, and comparing it to the later material about primarchs, it seems to me that Lion El'Jonson and Lyyn Elgonsen are two different persons with similar names. When the legion was founded on Terra before the start of the Great Crusade, Lion El'Jonson was not present (being stranded in Caliban). Lyyn Elgonsen could thus be one of the early astartes (non-primarch) present on Terra, who was tasked with organising a number of his geneseed-brothers into a fighting organisation ("founding a legion").

 

Should I ever do a 30k 1st Legion project, I'm naming my HQ Lynn Elgonsen on the ground of your words.

 

He'd be as you say, one of those old Terran Legionnaires.  And to avoid conflicting with current lore, he didn't found the Legion; he organised the FEAST.  He's like a Delgatus in charge of planning that party, which is the type of task you give to a executive officer/2nd-in-command.  He lead just the celebration, not the Legion itself.

 

Great thread, I really want to do a small detachment or something now, that's hilarious.

[Lathe Biosas]

Just make sure that if you are doing a Rogue Trader inspired force, you use the original Inquisitor: Obiwan Sherlock Cluseau.

 

(The progenitor of the Warhammer 40k "I don't wear helmets" trope.)

Edited 22 hours ago by Lathe Biosas

[Griefbringer]

Regarding the esteemed Lynn Elgonsen, as an old Terran legionnaire he would be quite experienced by the time of Heresy (if he was still alive), having taken part in the Great Crusade and likely organised a number of victory feasts. Perhaps he is also the Custodian of the Cup of Remembrance between the feasts - and in the good old astartes tradition might end up carrying it to the battlefield to inspire his brother warriors. Considering how those relics survive on the battlefield conditions, they must be made of strongest adamantium and protected by mini force-fields and Emperor's blessing (or maybe they just take a copy to the battlefield and keep the original in a safe hold in a Spartan or battle barge?).

 

If you want to represent Custodian Elgonsen on tabletop, an early mark power armour (Mk 2 or 3) might help to show his origins as one of the early Terran astartes. The custodianship of the Cup could be displayed by a backpack banner with a grail-like illustration of the said item, and/or having an actual goblet in one hand. One source of plastic goblets might be this recent set of medieval treasure from Victrix (despite the historical nature, many of the items would look at home in the 41st millennium):

 

https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/recently-released/products/treasures-chests?variant=56374858482046

 

As for Lathe Biosas' comment about inquisitors (which to my knowledge were not really present at the time of Heresy), the inquisitor example in RT rulebook is actually "the renowned Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau - a tireless exposer of psychic misdeeds and genetic deviance". Considering the amount of equipment he is mentioned carrying, he would be quite a modelling challenge if you wanted to represent everything WYSIWYG - especially since he is not mentioned as having a retinue of attendants to help with carting all those items around.