The Castigators

[Commissar Molotov]

Hi Ferrus, 

 

Really glad to hear from you. Nice to see the comments starting to trickle through. I'm glad that, despite the document not being complete, you can see where I'm going with it. I really appreciate any input you can send my way. The starting point was me trying to take all the detail from this thread and put it together into something solid and detailed. 

 

I had thought of putting a comment in the "Insignium Castigator" section about the Castigators having the scarlet of the blood shed in the Imperium's name. There was no real-world reason why I chose red. I imagine it be a colour of sacrifice and blood - but I don't want the blood symbology to make the Chapter sound like they descend from the bloody blood Blood Angels of blood. I had intended the coiled lash to be the original heraldry of Barathus - with it either symbolising the punishment dished out by the Castigators, or their internal drive (or zeal?) to strike at their foes. I've moved the Castigators away from ideas of self-mutilation or flagellation, but I do want that sense of unyielding stubbornness and fervour to fight in the Emperor's name. 

[Ferrus Manus]

 

 

I had thought of putting a comment in the "Insignium Castigator" section about the Castigators having the scarlet of the blood shed in the Imperium's name. There was no real-world reason why I chose red. I imagine it be a colour of sacrifice and blood - but I don't want the blood symbology to make the Chapter sound like they descend from the bloody blood Blood Angels of blood. I had intended the coiled lash to be the original heraldry of Barathus - with it either symbolising the punishment dished out by the Castigators, or their internal drive (or zeal?) to strike at their foes. I've moved the Castigators away from ideas of self-mutilation or flagellation, but I do want that sense of unyielding stubbornness and fervour to fight in the Emperor's name. 

 

Interesting, and while I realise this might not be something you want to get hung up on, my initial reaction was that perhaps it could be linked to this:

 

"We may well be the angels of death, but we are held aloft by borrowed wings."

and 

"The Blood of Martyrs is the seed of the Imperium"

 

Perhaps it represents the Castigators going into war wearing the blood of the Imperium's martyrs.That through donning of the Castigator's red armour an aspirant is baptised in the blood of those the Chapter is sworn to protect. 

[Donkey Kong]

Perhaps we could summon more of the older ones? Speak the names that are not to be spoken - Darrell, Barret, Kinghongkong, Sigismund Himself, Cpt_Tiberius, Penitent Dreadnought, Toyship, Ferrus Manus, Tyrannicide, Marshal Rohr, Brother Varen, Nash Trickster...

 

Anyone remember stories about how time travels funny in the internet Warp? Particularly the Liber? Turns out I don't remember the password to my old account. I don't even remember the email address I used when I made my account. Go figure.

 

Really excited to see you working on the Castigators IA Mol! Unfortunately, my love for 40k has dropped off a bit over the last few years. I doubt I'll ever be as passionate about the nitty gritty coming out of GWHQ again, but I still love the themes of the universe. Still, every now and again I poke my head back in to see who's posting here. I've particularly enjoyed keeping up with your Castigators 2015 and Deathwatch Projects between here and the Ammobunker. Recently, I've actually gone back and combed through my old Astral Reaver stuff. I think I may have found some elegant solutions to my old problems. I'll also be interested in seeing if my writing has improved at all.

 

Let's see the best way I can confirm I'm me. When I first made my KHK account, I was geeking out over 40k, particularly your Castigators. The first IA I tried to make was the Space Rams that I was pretty excited about until I got you to come around and criticize, at which point you told me that I may as well have taken a sharpie to a Space Wolves article and replaced all instances of dogs with sheep. I remember PMing you a lot to come and read it too. How embarrassing. I've made no less than 5 topics about my Death Heads Astral Reavers, who have had probably twice that many identity crises in half that period of time. First time around, they were blue instead of green, and the Chapter Heraldry came from a Dark Elf Fantasy set until Codex Grey made me a version of it that didn't look godawful. I tried to start a campaign story with Codex Grey (Warrior Eternal), Ace (Infinity Knights), Ferrus (Arctic Lions), and Ydalir without first having finalized so much as my Chapter's IA, something that I remember being vehemently against the Liber Campaign for, so, pretty good hypocrisy and lapse in judgment on my part. And, at some point in between I conceived of a Chapter called the Chimaeras that I first made because I was upset about "Loose Canon" and that I have since thought of as an interesting secondary 13th Founding project.

 

But, enough about me and what I did when I was 15 and stupid(er). I'll just echo ToyShip, Nine, and Tiberius: How may I be of service?

 

EDIT: Formatting

Edited September 24, 2015 by bpspill

[Heru]

Anyone remember stories about how time travels funny in the internet Warp? Particularly the Liber? Turns out I don't remember the password to my old account. I don't even remember the email address I used when I made my account. Go figure.

Throw one of the Admins a PM, they'll get it sorted out, just like with Nine Breaker.

[NightrawenII]

Okey, I have read it, several times. I'm quite sure I'm picking on wrong things, but oh well.
Btw, either the formating of the file is messed up or my docx-fu is weak.


Origins
"Many Imperial records have been destroyed, purged, rescinded or revised; whole centuries of Imperial history have been erased entirely or buried beneath the suffocating weight of Imperial bureaucracy."
You know, you cannot have this in the openning and then go onto detail how the Castigators were founded. It's not consistent. You should tell it in more round-about way.

"During the Castigators’ first centuries of service, the Chapter maintained an unceasing war against the enemies of the Throne."
When you look at it the other way... Does it mean that later the Chapter was less fervent in persecution of its enemies?

"Barathus was a keen strategist, and he drove his newest warriors to their limits."
Here, you should talk about Castigator's heraldry. It would explain a lot of things.

Homeworld
"The descendants of the original survivors clung to a thin strip of land between the light and dark sides, an arid and inhospitable area of perpetual twilight."
Erm, I'm going to use reason and say, "Thet are so dead.". You really cannot expect rag-tag survivors of crash-landing to survive in such place. On the other hand, I cannot imagine anyone, who would want to live on such planet. Hmm...

"Losanco's potent symbolism struck a chord in Baraquiel's soul. The dichotomy between light and dark and the survivors' struggle against corruption convinced him that they could serve as a potential source of future Castigators."
Yeah. Mutants live in Light. Humans in Twilight. And nobody really lives in Dark.
I understand why he was so taken by survivors struggle, but I don't understand that part about dichotomy.

"Any youths travelling with the Hunting Parties will be carefully appraised for their suitability to join the Astartes."
I don't think the ghazi, or akritai, would invite a children in their ranks. It's too troublesome.

"The Chaplains will provide the hunters with weaponry and basic equipment that can be traded or used to make their lives that bit easier. In return, those
children that meet the Chaplains' stringent standards will be taken."
You make it sound like the children are sold to the Chapter...

"The Chapter has dispatched envoys to the greatest worlds in the sector. Advice to the sector governor himself."
Eh, I bet the Castigator's heraldry is not welcome sight on the most worlds, with their "purity above all" agenda and redemptionist's tendencies.

Belief
"Tenacity and zealous passion are qualities prized by the Castigators. The trials used to induct recruits ensure that the Chapter’s recruits are strong-willed, used to hardship and unforgiving of deviancy."
You repeat this several times through the article, but there should be some kind of establishment why Castigators favour such qualities. They 'could' be like that because of their homeworld, but the way it's written suggests that the Castigators were like that 'before' they found Losanco Secundus.
Second, you focus too much on the mutants. You start talking about purity/impure at the beginning and continue to talk about it in every section. It makes the Castigators a little too much one-dimensional.
Also, the threat of mutant is one amongst many and the narrative sort of ignore the Xenos.

+++++
Those are my thoughts so far. Yes, they are messy, rough and harsh, but I don't intend any harm. Honest.

~ NightrawenII

[Commissar Molotov]

Hi all, 

 

Tiberius hit me up with an email today that I wanted to share with you all: 

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigator_Sternguard_Vet.png

 

With term starting up I've been far busier that I thought I would be - I think it's clear that any sort of "Castigator PDF" won't be complete by December, which is what I'd originally hoped. I haven't even managed to get to my modelling for a month or so. 

 

 

 

Interesting, and while I realise this might not be something you want to get hung up on, my initial reaction was that perhaps it could be linked to this:

 

"We may well be the angels of death, but we are held aloft by borrowed wings."

and 

"The Blood of Martyrs is the seed of the Imperium"

 

Perhaps it represents the Castigators going into war wearing the blood of the Imperium's martyrs.That through donning of the Castigator's red armour an aspirant is baptised in the blood of those the Chapter is sworn to protect. 

 

 

It's tricky to delve into blood symbolism without treading on the Blood Angels' toes. The 'borrowed wings' quote you've put up there was something that came to me when I was thinking about the serfs. The more I've been exploring the Castigators in recent years, the more I've thought about the Chapter serfs - a large and extensive body of individuals, all of whom are instrumental in keeping a Chapter at war. The craftsmen creating ammunition, armour and other relics, all of whom are fighting for the Emperor in their own ways. I imagine a byzantine structure of craft-clans and artificers, with proud lineages and responsibilities. I imagine the Chief Victualler officiating marriages, even. There is a lot of play there. 

 

 

 

Anyone remember stories about how time travels funny in the internet Warp? Particularly the Liber? Turns out I don't remember the password to my old account. I don't even remember the email address I used when I made my account. Go figure.

 

Really excited to see you working on the Castigators IA Mol! Unfortunately, my love for 40k has dropped off a bit over the last few years. I doubt I'll ever be as passionate about the nitty gritty coming out of GWHQ again, but I still love the themes of the universe. Still, every now and again I poke my head back in to see who's posting here. I've particularly enjoyed keeping up with your Castigators 2015 and Deathwatch Projects between here and the Ammobunker. Recently, I've actually gone back and combed through my old Astral Reaver stuff. I think I may have found some elegant solutions to my old problems. I'll also be interested in seeing if my writing has improved at all.

 

Let's see the best way I can confirm I'm me. When I first made my KHK account, I was geeking out over 40k, particularly your Castigators. The first IA I tried to make was the Space Rams that I was pretty excited about until I got you to come around and criticize, at which point you told me that I may as well have taken a sharpie to a Space Wolves article and replaced all instances of dogs with sheep. I remember PMing you a lot to come and read it too. How embarrassing. I've made no less than 5 topics about my Death Heads Astral Reavers, who have had probably twice that many identity crises in half that period of time. First time around, they were blue instead of green, and the Chapter Heraldry came from a Dark Elf Fantasy set until Codex Grey made me a version of it that didn't look godawful. I tried to start a campaign story with Codex Grey (Warrior Eternal), Ace (Infinity Knights), Ferrus (Arctic Lions), and Ydalir without first having finalized so much as my Chapter's IA, something that I remember being vehemently against the Liber Campaign for, so, pretty good hypocrisy and lapse in judgment on my part. And, at some point in between I conceived of a Chapter called the Chimaeras that I first made because I was upset about "Loose Canon" and that I have since thought of as an interesting secondary 13th Founding project.

 

But, enough about me and what I did when I was 15 and stupid(er). I'll just echo ToyShip, Nine, and Tiberius: How may I be of service?

 

EDIT: Formatting

 

 

Really pleased to see you're still following my stuff. And reading through your post has made me sound like I've not always been the most positive of posters here! I think I've mellowed in my old age. Although the 40k community's attitudes towards certain things (such as the Second Legion, for example) has changed. Perhaps puritans become more radical with age. The Eisenhorn effect! 

 

 

Okey, I have read it, several times. I'm quite sure I'm picking on wrong things, but oh well.
Btw, either the formating of the file is messed up or my docx-fu is weak.


Origins
"Many Imperial records have been destroyed, purged, rescinded or revised; whole centuries of Imperial history have been erased entirely or buried beneath the suffocating weight of Imperial bureaucracy."
You know, you cannot have this in the openning and then go onto detail how the Castigators were founded. It's not consistent. You should tell it in more round-about way.

"During the Castigators’ first centuries of service, the Chapter maintained an unceasing war against the enemies of the Throne."
When you look at it the other way... Does it mean that later the Chapter was less fervent in persecution of its enemies?

"Barathus was a keen strategist, and he drove his newest warriors to their limits."
Here, you should talk about Castigator's heraldry. It would explain a lot of things.

Homeworld
"The descendants of the original survivors clung to a thin strip of land between the light and dark sides, an arid and inhospitable area of perpetual twilight."
Erm, I'm going to use reason and say, "Thet are so dead.". You really cannot expect rag-tag survivors of crash-landing to survive in such place. On the other hand, I cannot imagine anyone, who would want to live on such planet. Hmm...

"Losanco's potent symbolism struck a chord in Baraquiel's soul. The dichotomy between light and dark and the survivors' struggle against corruption convinced him that they could serve as a potential source of future Castigators."
Yeah. Mutants live in Light. Humans in Twilight. And nobody really lives in Dark.
I understand why he was so taken by survivors struggle, but I don't understand that part about dichotomy.

"Any youths travelling with the Hunting Parties will be carefully appraised for their suitability to join the Astartes."
I don't think the ghazi, or akritai, would invite a children in their ranks. It's too troublesome.

"The Chaplains will provide the hunters with weaponry and basic equipment that can be traded or used to make their lives that bit easier. In return, those
children that meet the Chaplains' stringent standards will be taken."
You make it sound like the children are sold to the Chapter...

"The Chapter has dispatched envoys to the greatest worlds in the sector. Advice to the sector governor himself."
Eh, I bet the Castigator's heraldry is not welcome sight on the most worlds, with their "purity above all" agenda and redemptionist's tendencies.

Belief
"Tenacity and zealous passion are qualities prized by the Castigators. The trials used to induct recruits ensure that the Chapter’s recruits are strong-willed, used to hardship and unforgiving of deviancy."
You repeat this several times through the article, but there should be some kind of establishment why Castigators favour such qualities. They 'could' be like that because of their homeworld, but the way it's written suggests that the Castigators were like that 'before' they found Losanco Secundus.
Second, you focus too much on the mutants. You start talking about purity/impure at the beginning and continue to talk about it in every section. It makes the Castigators a little too much one-dimensional.
Also, the threat of mutant is one amongst many and the narrative sort of ignore the Xenos.

+++++
Those are my thoughts so far. Yes, they are messy, rough and harsh, but I don't intend any harm. Honest.

~ NightrawenII

 

 

Thanks for beginning to trawl through the document. 

 

It's certainly a challenge to balance the in-universe weight of incompetent bureaucracy versus the real-world fan's desire to know more (and my desire to tell more.) But there are still a lot of unknowns. The point I've always tried to make was that there is a contrast between the 13th Founding (of which almost nothing is known) versus the 14th Founding (where comparatively more is known, and here is what has been pieced together.) 

 

 

My intention was to suggest that the Castigators' first centuries of service were 'unceasing' - not that they later move against the throne. With no homeworld or "responsibilities", they were able to throw themselves at their enemies with fervour as Barathus forged a weapon of unbreakable will that could be used against his foes. 

 

 

As to the homeworld - when you take the Space Marine fluff to its natural limit, no one single world could produce enough candidates for a Chapter, especially one as stringent as the Castigators. There's a certain amount of artistic license. But consider that when I talk about a "crash", we are talking about kilometre-long space ships from the 40k universe. Ork Roks are used to smash into planets, with plenty of Orks surviving. The Losancan settlers are in "twilight", as you say - they are caught between light and dark - between freezing to death or being obliterated by light. There's plenty of religions who believe you cannot truly look upon the face of God, or you will be destroyed, and that's not so different here. The idea that there are external forces that tug on us, that try to lure us in one direction or another - that's more relevant in the 40k universe, where gribbly monsters can indeed be born from within.

 

Are the children sold to the Chapter? Perhaps. If I had an unlimited well of time and talent, I'd write up some fiction based on the planet. But my initial thoughts were that the Castigators realise that the hunters must be kept strong in order to survive? Children being sold into servitude is hardly the darkest part of 40k, though.

 

 

Regarding the envoys, I was again thinking about Serfs. There is some fluff about older Marines being dispatched as diplomats, but I liked the idea of a serf in some sort of chiton or robe, with the Castigators symbol as some sort of brooch. I like the idea that a Chapter has to negotiate for certain resources - and that there is a political element to the Imperium. There would be some worlds that would fear the Castigators, but then again, they are perhaps the lesser of many evils. There is fluff in recent 40k books suggesting that as M41 draws to a close, many Space Marine Chapters are expanding their holdings in an attempt to keep stability and order. I'm not sure I'd have the Castigators annexing worlds (and indeed, by M41 I see the Castigators as beseiged by many threats within Dalthus and the Howling Stars.) But it's an evocative image - the idea of the Chapter symbol being sprayed by down-hive gangers who have nothing but a hereditary memory of the horrors it conveys. 

 

 

I will accept the Castigators are perhaps two-dimensional, and that this project is a way of building them out to be far more nuanced - but what would your suggestions be? 

 

 

[Donkey Kong]

Hey Mol! I owe a lot to your criticism, it was never a bad thing.

 

I'll be doing another read through of the Castigators IA on the front page as well as your responses to NightrawnII's criticism since I think he brings up some interesting points.

 

There's a not so small conundrum that comes with the 14th Founding, that being the Nova Terra Interregnum surrounding everything from the Eighth to the Twenty First Foundings. The entirety of that time period is shrouded in mystery, and although more may be known about other Foundings compared to the Thirteenth, and I've always loved that reactive character to the Castigators as a response to the Dark Founding, I don't think the difference will be night and day. It's funny how well the time works for you considering how you've placed their Founding smack dab in the middle of the second greatest civil war in Imperial history. I think you can run with it pretty easily too. The Chapter's earliest history can wrap around the rise of the Ecclesiarchy as a political and military power.

 

This does tie into a problem with the Origins of the Chapter. It is unknown which side of the Interregnum initiated which founding, which could create a problem explaining who explicitly decided that the Thirteenth Founding was a mistake, especially so soon after the Founding ended. Perhaps it could have been a joint decision based on elements of the AdMech before or circumventing the schism in the Mechanicus at the same time. Either way, given the Chapter's piety, I think it would be a mistake to not clarify and emphasize that the Chapter was founded by the Theocratic Imperium and even write about conflicts against Nova Terra. It also doesn't help given that the geography places the Black Consuls on the opposite side of Nova Terra by the Eye of Terror, but I'm sure someone a bit more imaginative than me can put the pieces of that puzzle together in such a way to make it work.

 

As for children being sold or traded to the Chapter, I think there is a difference between traditional exchange of sons and goods and explicit bartering. I think the latter simply lacks the tact and nobility becoming of a Chapter. That is not to say that selling children into service is particularly out of place, as you've already said. I would echo NightrawnII that it's something that should probably be clarified, if only to clarify what the Chapter is to the Losancan people. As it stands in the IA, the Chaplains buy children from hunting parties, and there's not two ways about it.

 

As for the homeworld itself, there are a few set pieces that set up some wonderful symbolism and stories. The crashed ship could have a name. It could even have been converted into a city of sorts in the time since the crash. Who or what the mutants are could be explored as well. How terrible would it be for the Losancan people if the mutants they fight are descendants of the same crash that they were. It could even be seen as a betrayal by all the people, the weak minded who blindly walked into the light condemned the world to this tortured existence. The extermination of mutants is paving the path to salvation with justice. It would also be interesting to see how the Chapter works to perpetuate the state of life on Losanco. Are the mutants monitored by the Chapter? Do brothers help hunting parties or eliminate particularly dangerous threats like mutant psykers, or perhaps even call in the black ships to sacrifice them to the Throne? Do they somehow import people to bolster the population of mutants? If it is left a status quo of sorts and does the Chapter ever concern themselves with what happens if or when the Losancans successfully purge the mutants? Lastly, what kind of greater threat do these mutants present? Are they servants of the ruinous powers? If so, how does the Chapter tolerate their presence on the world?

 

There is an unclear origin for the Chapter's "tenacity and zeal", as NightrawenII stated, and it's almost too convenient if it's something that comes from both Baraquiel and Losanco. It would be a good talking point to see where that influence comes from, or whether the Chapter or the world resulted in the Chapter becoming more radical. I remember one of your earlier stories having the last Castigator Librarian, so I think you want the fervor to come from Losanco. You did preface Losanco's discovery by putting it in a xenocidal campaign, but that seems more like lip service, resulting in a prevailing anti mutant sentiment to a detrimental degree.

 

Just as an aside, I still admire how you haven't simply left the Castigators as an IA, but have expanded on that by giving them a region of space to campaign, creating their enemies, tied them into official lore like the reclaiming of the Black Consuls banner, and even created their successors.

[Commissar Molotov]

Up until now I've been working on a DOCX file hosted on Google Drive, but as Nightrawen intimates, the file compression has been doing it no favours. One of the many steps on the way toward getting this project towards fruition will be to sort out a layout and formatting, but that's a way off at the moment. I wanted to create something that was, effectively, a proof of concept for everybody. 

 

Today I've uploaded the file to dropbox, which can be accessed here. It is very rough, and very incomplete, but I hope it allows people to see where I'm going with it. 

 

In the ten years since the Castigators were first originated, the fluff has changed - in some ways, drastically. The Nova Terra Interregnum is something that previously never existed, so I will have to think what I will have to do. My personal taste has always been to work within the gaps that Games Workshop gives us, but not to just make things up wholesale. As a result, I'm not entirely sure where to go. 

 

Part of me thinks that some of the core tenets and concepts of the Castigators might have to change - that perhaps some of the long-held assumptions I've had will need to be reassessed. For example, perhaps the Castigators could recruit from across the Dalthus sector, rather than purely from Losanco itself. Would it dilute the Chapter's identity? There's a lot to consider. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Commissar Molotov

[Commissar Molotov]

There have been times when I've clicked on someone's thread to see that they've got reams and reams of background. In order to provide them with support, you have to get them to unpick all of their ideas. To dissolve the product to its most basic building blocks, so that it can be reassembled in a stronger form. It occurs to me that the Castigators might have to go through an equally similar (and painful) process. 

 

The Castigators are in many ways an expression of me - and some of the ideas and concepts I've explored. Ten years later, I've changed, and it seems the Castigators might have to as well. What do I want the Castigators to be? 

 

Some thoughts:

• Red Ultramarines(?) - Proud, noble, uncompromising
• Zealous Puritans
• Descended from the Ultramarines (Black Consuls)
• 14th Founding, formed in the aftermath of a calamity
• Homeworld - Losanco - Scourge of Mutation
• Recruit across the Sector?
• Fortress-Monastery 
•  Fight in a Codex-Compliant manner for the most part. "Purge-squads" with Flamers/Heavy Flamers? Noted for resilience and stubbornness. 
•  Codex-Compliant Organisation. 21 Terminator Suits. 10 Companies. 
•  Lack of Psychic Librarians(?) 
•  Beliefs - purity in all things. Weakness or laxity endangers all. The Castigators were born from purity, and strive to maintain that purity. All must be destroyed so that mankind can endure. 
• Astartes of the Chapter are disciplined - purity in all things. 

[Donkey Kong]

Just got done reading the dropbox document. There's quite a bit to go through, and I'll probably be reading through it a few more times before I'm done sharing all my thoughts, but I'll address your list now.

 

"Red Ultramarines" and "Recruit across the Sector" are both things that I think do more harm than good, watering down your identity instead. This brings up an interesting thought, culturally how would you define the Castigators? Their names sound like an amalgam of Greek and Latin, although they distinctly aren't Greco-Romans in Space like the Ultramarines are. As silly as it sounds, I think that having a naming convention helps tie a Chapter together, and having a variety of names from just as many worlds undoes that. You can always go about having the Chapter rename their brothers upon initiation, but I've never been a fan of that idea.

You can, of course, dismiss my criticism of "Red Ultramarines" if the be all end all of that statement was "They're a codex adherent Chapter that strictly follows the tenants laid out by Guilliman." and, as you've stated, they're "proud, noble, uncompromising".

 

"Zealous Puritans" "14th Founding" "Lack of Psychic Librarians" "Beliefs - purity" are things I think you should lay down as your foundation. Lots of this ties back to the "Homeworld - Scourge of Mutation". I like the idea of multiple factors coming together to define the Chapter: Purity following the 13th Founding, Baraquiel cult of personality, Losanco's hatred of mutants, but I still have no idea who contributed what, and how everything came to be. I don't know how Baraquiel felt about being handed a Chapter built with the purpose of genetic purity, or how important any of that was to him. How much did the Chapter value that trait before Losanco, and how much did Losancan marines cling to that notion of perfection or aspire to make sure that they stayed that way, semi-related how did this eventually end in the Chapter's decision to stop recruiting psykers? Given this focus, I also find it odd that you haven't gone into a larger slant towards Apothecaries, whether that be simply having a larger Apothecarion, or going full Red Scorpion and having every sergeant carry a narthecium. Another aspect that I particularly liked about the Castigators was the notion of no psychic librarians - very Black Templars, well justified, and a perfect example of the radical factions within the Imperium at work. I don't like the idea of the historian role circulating within the Chapter, and I think it would be better if the Librarium still existed, blue armor and all, just without psychic marines. Ditch the psychic hood and horned skull, and replace supernatural books with historical transcriptions.

 

I wouldn't take the Interregnum as a curse, so much as a blessing in disguise. It is the Dark Millennium in the history of the Imperium. The Castigators' Founding gets to be planted straight in the middle of a great civil war. Your Chapter gets to rise at the same time as the Ecclesiarchy, giving even more significance to piety within the Chapter. I think it's a fun exercise to think and write about "Where was your Chapter when an event happened" instead of finding workarounds like "They didn't exist yet" or "They were somewhere else".

 

One of my biggest issues with what you've written as it stands is that I have no bearings as to what perspective I'm supposed to be reading from. Information jumps from restating assumed defaults about Space Marines "recruitment is difficult" and "this is what a Codex Chapter looks like" to "This is a rumor that goes back to the Chapter's founding" and "Here's a quote from a Chapter Serf". It's understandable considering how it all still looks like an outline, and there's nothing wrong with that for now, but come time to write down the final thing, this needs a point of view. Even if it's just historical text and anecdotes, you've given yourself so much room to work with that it would still be a compelling read: Founding "Adeptus Mechanicus Note, Date M35, Mars", Historical Anecdote 13th Founding, "Historical Document, Battle", "Inquisitorial service record", "Pict Capture, Campaign", "Rogue Trader note of commendation", "Litanies of battle, vox record", etc.

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for taking the time to comment. The information in the dropbox is a collation of ten years of fluff - from myself, and from others. I've always been fortunate in that people have felt compelled to contribute to the Castigators, and I hope that's a tradition that can continue. 

 

Red Ultramarines - that's something I wanted to address. When I created the Castigators, Ultramarines Chapters were simply not the done thing in the Liber. Everybody hated the Ultramarines and people didn't believe that characterful Ultramarines successors could exist. That's something I wanted to tackle head-on with my work. Can a Chapter descend from the Ultramarines, and be proud of that heritage? Can a Chapter do that and yet still be characterful? I think there are aspects of the Ultramarines that I want my Chapter to hold on to, in its own way. A sense of pride, honour, duty and righteousness. Even if some of those aspects might have been stretched out somewhat by time and by the Castigators' own zealousness. 

 

Recruiting across the sector is something I'm moving towards. It occurs to me that a Space Marine Chapter would have difficulty recruiting from one world, particularly a recruitment source as endangered as the Losancans and a Chapter as stringent as the Castigators. It does raise wrinkles. One option would be to suggest that the Castigators have the right to recruit across the sector, though they don't do it regularly. Or perhaps I have to incorporate the homeworld in some kind - perhaps Castigator recruits have to undertake some sort of task on Losanco, or help the Losancan hunters somehow. I'm not really sure. The Crimson Fists are my inspiration here - they recruit from across their sector, even though they have a homeworld in Rynn's World. Of course, that raises issues with the eventual lack of Castigators psykers - unless the Chapter did recruit from Losanco for an extended period of time, but at some later period of time they decided to recruit from further afield. Perhaps a Chapter Master made that decision. 

 

Culturally? I used Latin(ate) names for the Castigators because I thought it made sense. I did, a long time ago, have plans for a piece of fiction about a Losancan boy called D'Ni who became a Castigator. My thoughts were, like the Dark Angels, that the Castigators Marines take new names. That could be part of a unifying factor among the Chapter's recruits. 

 

 

One suggestion, once, was to have the Castigators' Librarians as anti-psykers. The old Witch Hunters codex had "null rods" and anti-psychic weaponry. Perhaps the Castigators Librarians could use some of that sort of equipment. 

[Lysimachus]

I think the idea of recruiting across the Sector works in a lot of ways. It helps with the simple logistics, of course, but also I've sometimes wondered about the first Castigators who are obsessed with purity choosing a world whose population is rife with mutation? It's a bit of a random thought, but what if Barathus(-ius?) didn't see so much a recruiting ground but more a testing ground for his recruits? They could gather up hundreds of boys (perhaps even younger than standard aspirants) and basically dump them on Loscano and see who makes it? That might explain how there are enough suitable recruits for the Chapter?

 

Love the idea of anti-psyker equipped characters, although I wonder if it makes sense for it to be the Librarians, who I see as being the more moderate, studious members of the Chapter. Feels more like it could be more a dual role for the Chapter Chaplains, whose fanaticism and faith would help them face the hated mutants (not to mention a crozius arcanum/null rod mix would be cool).

[Commissar Molotov]

I had thought of Losanco being some sort of obstacle course or rite of passage. Perhaps they had to help the Losancans. I'm not really sure, and worry that might be a little clichéd. 

 

I got an awesome PM today from Algrim Whitefang: 

 

Hey Molotov,

 

Been reading over the updated index astartes article on your Castigators and updating my wiki entry accordingly on the WH40K Fanon. Thought you might want some updated artwork! So, without further ado, take a gander at these:

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/DIY%20Chapters/Castigators%20Astartes_zpslhdz71nh.jpg

                            Castigators Battle-Brother

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/DIY%20Chapters/Castigators%20Banner%201_zps0rezhnha.png

                            Castigators Chapter Banner

 

I hope I did your Chapter some justice. If you have any comments, suggestions or concerns, just shoot me a message. Stay tuned...I'll be sending you more pics in the next few days. Ave Imperator!

 

[Nomus Sardauk]

 

I had thought of Losanco being some sort of obstacle course or rite of passage. Perhaps they had to help the Losancans. I'm not really sure, and worry that might be a little clichéd.

 

I got an awesome PM today from Algrim Whitefang:

 

 

 

Hey Molotov,

 

Been reading over the updated index astartes article on your Castigators and updating my wiki entry accordingly on the WH40K Fanon. Thought you might want some updated artwork! So, without further ado, take a gander at these:

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/DIY%20Chapters/Castigators%20Astartes_zpslhdz71nh.jpg

Castigators Battle-Brother

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/DIY%20Chapters/Castigators%20Banner%201_zps0rezhnha.png

Castigators Chapter Banner

 

I hope I did your Chapter some justice. If you have any comments, suggestions or concerns, just shoot me a message. Stay tuned...I'll be sending you more pics in the next few days. Ave Imperator!

 

Uhhrrmahgeeerd, you lucky git, what fell power must I sell my soul to in order to have an artist as skilled as Algrim Whitefang create masterpieces like this for my DIY Chapter?!

Both of these pieces look like they were taken straight from an old Index Astartes article, if I didn't know better I would think the Castigators were a canon Chapter. :)

[NightrawenII]

Sorry for late reply, but I'm quite busy this time of year as always.

 

Thanks for beginning to trawl through the document.

 

It's certainly a challenge to balance the in-universe weight of incompetent bureaucracy versus the real-world fan's desire to know more (and my desire to tell more.) But there are still a lot of unknowns. The point I've always tried to make was that there is a contrast between the 13th Founding (of which almost nothing is known) versus the 14th Founding (where comparatively more is known, and here is what has been pieced together.)

I was talking more about the First Castigator section. You drop the info here like hard fact, not just like stuff of legends, which would be more appropriate given the previous section.

As to the homeworld - when you take the Space Marine fluff to its natural limit, no one single world could produce enough candidates for a Chapter, especially one as stringent as the Castigators. There's a certain amount of artistic license. But consider that when I talk about a "crash", we are talking about kilometre-long space ships from the 40k universe. Ork Roks are used to smash into planets, with plenty of Orks surviving. The Losancan settlers are in "twilight", as you say - they are caught between light and dark - between freezing to death or being obliterated by light. There's plenty of religions who believe you cannot truly look upon the face of God, or you will be destroyed, and that's not so different here. The idea that there are external forces that tug on us, that try to lure us in one direction or another - that's more relevant in the 40k universe, where gribbly monsters can indeed be born from within.

I disagree, even with very sparse population, we are talking a planet population, which would means millions people and the Chapter will need just handful, two or three, recruits. The Crimson Fists recruit one or two youths per year.

 

Well, I don't mind survivors of crash-landing and I don't mind people on Losanco. BUT I can't bring myself to belief these two claims put together. Really. If there is no ecosystem on Losanco the survivors will simply die of starvation. And you said it yourself, Losanco should not hold life.

 

Edit: I was thinking and you could make Losanco a penal colony, forgotten by the Imperium and then rediscovered by Castigators.

 

There's a not so small conundrum that comes with the 14th Founding, that being the Nova Terra Interregnum surrounding everything from the Eighth to the Twenty First Foundings.

Source for this? Becuase I have bad feeling about this one...

The Chapter's earliest history can wrap around the rise of the Ecclesiarchy as a political and military power.

The Adeptus Ministorum was major political power at the end of M33.

As for children being sold or traded to the Chapter, I think there is a difference between traditional exchange of sons and goods and explicit bartering. I think the latter simply lacks the tact and nobility becoming of a Chapter. That is not to say that selling children into service is particularly out of place, as you've already said. I would echo NightrawnII that it's something that should probably be clarified, if only to clarify what the Chapter is to the Losancan people. As it stands in the IA, the Chaplains buy children from hunting parties, and there's not two ways about it.

It's hilarious how the off-hand remarks create discusion the most. I don't have anything against such method, but keep in mind some people will sooner or later try to exploit this custom.

There is an unclear origin for the Chapter's "tenacity and zeal", as NightrawenII stated, and it's almost too convenient if it's something that comes from both Baraquiel and Losanco.

I thought too that Losanco is conventient homeworld for zealous Chapter, but remember that the Castigator found it after being fleet-based for several centuries.

Recruiting across the sector is something I'm moving towards. It occurs to me that a Space Marine Chapter would have difficulty recruiting from one world, particularly a recruitment source as endangered as the Losancans and a Chapter as stringent as the Castigators. It does raise wrinkles. One option would be to suggest that the Castigators have the right to recruit across the sector, though they don't do it regularly. Or perhaps I have to incorporate the homeworld in some kind - perhaps Castigator recruits have to undertake some sort of task on Losanco, or help the Losancan hunters somehow. I'm not really sure. The Crimson Fists are my inspiration here - they recruit from across their sector, even though they have a homeworld in Rynn's World. Of course, that raises issues with the eventual lack of Castigators psykers - unless the Chapter did recruit from Losanco for an extended period of time, but at some later period of time they decided to recruit from further afield. Perhaps a Chapter Master made that decision.

KHK had quite good idea. Recruit potential recruits across sector, drop them on Losanco and see how 'pure' these guys are.

 

Or you could go Jeni Cheri/Mamluk way. Recuit from the schools which train and educate 'holy' warriors on Losanco, ie. those, who wage war against the mutants and like. (Technically, your recruits doesn't need to fight.)

 

Edit: There is always the question what method the Castigators used before Losanco. You can begin here.

 

+++++++

 

That's all I can say at the moment. I'm sure I wanted to say more but I don't have time and I can't remember so... that's all.

 

~ NightrawenII

Edited November 2, 2015 by NightrawenII

[Dosjetka]

Nightrawen returns! :o

 

Now that I've got a bit more time on my hands, I'll go over your mega file and (hopefully) provide some meaningful feedback. The idea of shifting from recuiting from a single planet to a sector-wide recruit pool seems like a good one, especially with the points your raised about the Loscans being scarce and the Castigators strict.

[NightrawenII]

Nightrawen returns! :o

 

Tremble in fear foolish mortals!

[Nomus Sardauk]

 

Nightrawen returns! :o

 

Tremble in fear foolish mortals!

[Dosjetka]

You just made my day, SR :lol:

[Nomus Sardauk]

You just made my day, SR :lol:

Then my work here is done. Away! *falls out of chair, then sheepishly exits the thread*

Edited November 14, 2015 by SanguiniusReborn

[Commissar Molotov]

Orrr you guys could help me with the Castigators...?

 

;)

[Dosjetka]

On it, Mol

 

But then again, you've spawned quite a behemoth, so it takes a bit of time.

[Brother Augustine]

I know I am a bit late to this thread but I just read your IA and I have to applaud you. Beautifully written, a truly enjoyable read. Well done!

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for the comment! I'm always keen to receive feedback, and I am hoping that with Christmas coming up, I can try to move forward with the Castigators before 2015 draws to a close. 

 

In the meantime, here's an image I got from a lovely PM by SeerBrun: 

 

http://immortalenemies.com/Dei-Castigators---Return.jpg

[Brother Augustine]

 That just looks fantastic