Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Tubal]

I think we moved slightly away from the pure fortress world concept since it didn't fit with the chapter taking the burden of war on themselves. A fortress world doesn't NEED a space marine chapter :)

[Grimdarkness]

As for how to proceed, remember the skeleton of any IA:

 

Origins

Homeworld

Gene-seed

Organisation

Combat Doctrine

Beliefs

Battle Cry

 

I don't know about the others but for a Battle cry the duty is like a mountain death like a feather quote could suffice for a Battle cry the first part said by the chaplains the second by the Battle brother's.

[Archangelus]

I like that, Grimdarkness! Although, it sounds a bit Dark Angel-ish to me :blink:

 

How about this:

 

Chaplain: "This is our duty!"

Battle-Brothers: "And we will see it done!"

Edited August 7, 2006 by Archangelus

[iron father]

I like that, Grimdarkness! Although, it sounds a bit Dark Angel-ish to me ;)

 

How about this:

 

Chaplain: "This is our duty!"

Battle-Brothers: "And we will see it done!"

 

I love it!

[Commissar Molotov]

It certainly fits with the War Bearer's pragmatic nature. Tomorrow (tuesday) is my day off so I'll be around to do a fair amount of work on the War Bearers. ;)

[AWOL]

I like that, Grimdarkness! Although, it sounds a bit Dark Angel-ish to me :)

 

How about this:

 

Chaplain: "This is our duty!"

Battle-Brothers: "And we will see it done!"

 

Thirded.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Chaplain: "This is our duty!"

Battle-Brothers: "And we will see it done!"

 

Great Battle Cry Archangelus. I love it :ph34r:

[Grimdarkness]

Glad i could help. get's my thumb's up Archangelus.

[Archangelus]

Thanks :blush:

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Arr! It be Tuesday Mol, where be ye? *brandishes an eyepatch menacingly in true Nine_Breaker style*

 

--

 

Ahem, grandstanding aside, I feel that these are the main issues we need to cover now.

 

1. Finalize the homeworld, as much as we can.

2. Write up another summary or first draft of an IA.

3a. Discuss tactics and come up with a basic Chapter tactical layout, along with any tactical or strategic idiosyncrasies that set the chapter apart.

3b. Discuss chapter beliefs and come up with a basic belief system.

3c. Discuss chapter organization and come up with a basic Order of Battle.

3d. Discuss origins and come up with a basic layout of "ancient" history.

 

3a-d are all interchangeable, but I think we should pick one of them and work on it as well, once points one and two are finished/set aside. Thoughts? Opening discussion? I'm going to throw up a post for points one and three in about an hour or so, so if no one has dropped in by then I'll open for us...

 

Edit: Oh, and agreed, I like the warcry. Although it is somewhat reminiscent of the Crimson Fists in style and length.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Brother-Librarian Akritedes

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm here, I'm here. I spent today writing up a draft IA for the War Bearers. Hopefully it should get posted tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[Tubal]

Just posting to let you know I'm here, even though I don't have much to add at the moment :blush:

[Commissar Molotov]

Note, this is rather weak, but it was the product of an hour or two. I've tried to incorporate all the ideas given thus far. Now, the next thing we need to do is to poke as many holes as possible. But for each hole you poke, you must have a patch to repair said hole and make it stronger than before. Constructive and useful criticism only, please. :P

 

Index Astartes: War Bearers

 

Origins

The 41st millennia is a time of darkness and war. The Imperium is hard-pressed to stand against the threats that assail it. Aliens, mutants and heretics; such enemies can be found both within and without. In such times, only the most loyal and steadfast defenders can man their posts.

 

Throughout the imperium, citizens raise their voices in thanks for the presence and protection of the Adeptus Astartes, the super-human Space Marines. Their deeds are legendary, their actions vital in safeguarding mankind. It is their sacred duty, entrusted to them by the Emperor Himself.

 

The War Bearers chapter has a long and glorious history; over the long millennia they have never faltered in their task, the consequences of potential failure giving them the steadfast determination required to endure. The chapter was created as part of the seventeenth founding of the Astartes, created from gene-seed drawn from the successors of Roboute Guilliman.

 

The newly-created chapter was dispatched to the Segmentum Pacificus, where a swathe of planets had been attacked by roving bands of marauders. Chapter Master XXXX, a former Captain of the XXXX, began... [insert section here]

 

Homeworld

Natos is an industrial world in the Segmentum Pacificus. Smoking chimneys gout toxic clouds into the air and manufactoria work ceaselessly to provide weaponry and equipment to the Armed Forces of the Imperium. Before the War Bearers claimed the planet as their homeworld, workers could toil for their entire lives beneath a steel sky, never seeing sunlight. Some said that the loss of such a world to the arch-enemy would endanger large portions of the Segmentum.

 

The factories of Natos were owned by the planet's nobility, who could be considered amongst the richest organisations in the surrounding sectors. The noble families competed against each other for political and economic dominance, using whatever means possible to cut costs, maximise profits and fulfil lucrative contracts with the Adeptus Mechanicus, supplying manufactured goods to a number of nearby forge-worlds.

 

The Manufactoria-workers were ruled oppressively, their lives governed by shift-changes and time marked only by delivery schedules. It was whispered that the sweet, sugary foods that sustained them were made from the refined bodies of dead workers. Waste was frowned upon by the nobility of Natos.

 

When trade convoys from Natos were attacked and the Imperial Navy's intervention seemed to have little effect, the nobility of Natos petitioned for the aid of the Space Marines to track the pirates to their lair and annihilate them. The War Bearers answered the call, and quickly established Natos as their homeworld, claiming it as their homeworld under ancient Imperial laws. The Adeptus Mechanicus inititally contested the claim, fearful of losing Natos' manufactured goods. Space Marine homeworlds are exempt from the usual tithes imposed upon Imperial Worlds, and if the convoys ceased immediately, the effect would be deeply-felt by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

XXXX was an intelligent, insightful commander, as able in the political arena as in the battlefield. He knew that one did not incur the wrath of the Adeptus Mechanicus lightly, and moved to placate the Tech-Priests. He decreed that the planet would continue to fulfil its' tithes, ensuring the stability of the local region and the prosperity of Natos. He also decreed that the planet would provide Imperial Guardsmen to defend the sector. These Guardsmen would be given the best training possible. Furthermore, all citizens would be given military training so that the planet would be able to defend itself in case of attack.

 

The War Bearers worked in concert with the noble families, quickly building the defences of the system. Orbital stations ringed the station, each facility mounting firepower capable of crippling Naval vessels. Yet these weapons platforms were dwarfed by the star-fortress of the War Bearers, a gigantic construction capable of housing the chapter's living spaces, forges, training grounds and docking facilities. The fortress was - and is - jealously guarded, not just by the War Bearers but also the inhabitants of the planet. It became a source of pride for Natos that they housed the defenders of the Imperium.

 

The planet's moon had a thin but breathable atmosphere, and quickly became the site of a military academy. The moon's sparse continents were devoted to recreating battlefield conditions of all types. All children from the age of eight were inducted into the military academies, where they were trained rigorously for a further eight years before being released back into the workforce. The War Bearers had their pick of the academy's students, taking promising young boys to be inducted into the chapter. Many citizens would spend the rest of their lives working in the manufactoria without ever leaving Natos again. Yet others would be conscripted and outfitted as an Imperial Guard regiment before being dispatched to nearby warzones. Such arrangements also helped to combat the over-crowding of the populace.

 

Further details required here.

 

Organisation

For over five millennia, the War Bearers have adhered to the precepts of the Codex Astartes, as befits a successor of the Ultramarines. More required, obviously. Potential focus on large numbers of chapter serfs used in battle? Roles of Librarian and Chaplain.

 

Combat Doctrine

The chapter symbol of the War Bearers features the axe for good reason. It is after the axe that the War Bearers fashion their method of combat. A given situation usually leads to a carefully-considered plan. This measured approach is a key characteristic of the War Bearers. But whilst it takes time to swing an axe, when it hits, the results are devastating. The War Bearers tend to strike decisively and quickly, leading to the total destruction of the enemy.

 

The War Bearers fight as one - each marine is a part of the chapter, and the chapter is within each marine. Whilst other chapter's legends revolve around heroes, the War Bearers focus on the task at hand, marines working together to succeed as squads and companies where individuals fail. The War Bearers feel a strong sense of camraderie and kinship with their fellow warriors; they know that their squad-mates are the only support necessary to survive war.

 

Beliefs

The War Bearers are true guardians of the Imperial's citizenry - both physically and mentally. It is said that the War Bearers are very practical and grounded in the real-world. They are certainly not anchored in the same religious faith that consumes most chapters. Most scholars would suggest that the War Bearers have inherited much of their mindset from Natos - the Natosian aversion to the destruction of property and loss of life that could lead to a loss of profits has left an impression upon the chapter. The War Bearers fight to ensure that the citizenry of the Imperium are unharmed. It is said that the Imperium is the Emperor incarnate - if that is the case, then to safeguard the Imperium is to defend the Emperor Himself.

 

The War Bearers appear to view the Imperium as a two-tiered system of citizens and soldiers. In the War Bearer's view, the soldiery fight to defend the Imperium so that the citizenry need never face the horrors of war. It is perhaps the most noble sacrifice possible - to give up one's innocence, comfort or even their life in order so that others need not. It is a sacrifice the War Bearers undertake willingly. To their mind, the Space Marines are the ultimate defenders of the Imperium. They fight things that the Imperial Guard never could; They look into the abyss, and they have the fortitude to withstand the abyss staring back. They bear the weight of those actions so the ordinary human doesn't.

 

 

Gene Seed

The people of Natos are hardy and strong; their lives are harsh and this lends itself well to the War Bearers' requirements. They are ideal candidates for implantation, the pure gene-seed of Roboute Guilliman interacting well with their physiologies. All the enhanced organs created for the Space Marines by the Emperor work to their full capabilities for the War Bearers, enabling them to take the fight to their enemies.

 

Battlecry

Chaplain: "This is our duty!"

Battle-Brothers: "And we will see it done!"

[Tubal]

I can't find any real holes except the one's you've noted yourself. I like the fluff mostly, although it doesn't quite sound as polished as a 'proper' IA. :tu: It's good for a draft though.

 

A bit of flesh for the organisation part:

 

Organisation

For over five millennia, the War Bearers have adhered to the precepts of the Codex Astartes, as befits a successor of the Ultramarines. A few significant changes can be noted in their relationship to their recruits however:

Due to the militarized nature of their homeworld, and the great number of potential recruits this results in, the War Bearers chaplains will often select whole squads of promising candidates. The squad will be subjected to trials and tests designed to teach the young warriors the importance of teamwork and force them to rely on others than themselves. The trials themselves are often not combat-related, but are always dangerous for the reckless or incompetent; Wilderness survival and claustrophobic combat training remain favourites.

When the remaining survivors meet the minimum requirements for induction, as decided by the chaplain responsible for them, the whole group will be tested for genetic compatability. Only a few, or even none, of the recruits in any given group will have the genetic purity and implant tolerance deemed necessary by the apothecaries.

The remaining recruits will [more stuff here]

 

-----

 

I figure that since the marines are used to rely a lot on each other they would be pretty self-sufficient (as a group) in the faith department, freeing the chaplains to concentrate more on the recruits. This in turn allows them to train more recruits at a time, giving them a larger selection that ensures a low mutation rate of the geneseed and fewer cases of organ rejection (causing a set of geneseed to be wasted).

Edited August 9, 2006 by Tubal

[Grimdarkness]

The newly-created chapter was dispatched to the Segmentum Pacificus, where a swathe of planets had been attacked by roving bands of marauders. Chapter Master XXXX, a former Captain of the XXXX, began... [insert section here]

 

The sabbot worlds crusade source book has some info on were the blood pact comes from "the chaos marches beyond imperial territory"(ref pg 81/82) perhaps an earlier invasion.

 

For over five millennial, the War Bearers have adhered to the precepts of the Codex Astarte's, as befits a successor of the Ultramarines. More required, obviously. Potential focus on large numbers of chapter serfs used in battle? Roles of Librarian and Chaplain

 

I like tubal's idea for the chaplain's wasn't there talk of the library being a sort of tactical database where the WB could learn from previous battle's or campaigns. This one's a little iffy but perhaps those recruits who show an aptitude for the mechanical could serve as an apprentice in one of the manufacturers before been sent to mars it steps on toes (sals and IH) but there was talk of there rare equipment in the early part of the thread.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'd definitely like to keep the Blood Pact out of this chapter's history! Remember, we're trying to fill the niches wherever possible. Stepping on toes only weakens our chapter's stability.

 

Tubal: A good post; some inspiration there. I like the idea of inducting squads of recruits. It rather reminds me of the Alpha Legions' recruitment practices, and it's something that I think would help us. The War Bearers are perhaps also rather like the Iron Warriors in the sense that they're not hugely, overtly (or overly) religious.

[Grimdarkness]

The chapter was created as part of the seventeenth founding of the Astartes, created from gene-seed drawn from the successors of Roboute Guilliman.

The sabbot worlds crusade source book has some info on were the blood pact comes from "the chaos marches beyond imperial territory"(ref pg 81/82) perhaps an earlier invasion.

 

The War Bearers are five thousand years old i was suggesting an earlier incursion of chaos forces from the marches not the blood pact at all.

[Hrvat]

Hello all :D

 

I am back to provide my assistance as much as I can.

 

Since I hvae seen that there is a development towards swiss culture here is a suggestions.

 

It could be an Habsburg Monarchy culture since at one time it both incorporated the swiss and the slavs. Maybe even create a two caste society.

[AWOL]

Thoughts that come immediately to mind:

 

1. It doesn't seem like the militaristic side of Natos' populace was expressed quite as strongly as I had imagined we were discussing here in the thread. It's possible that this was merely my misinterpretation, of course, but I'd like to see at least some mention of the homeworld having some military training to warrant the War Bearers presence. Perhaps if mention could be made that the populace had created a large, well maintained standing armed force in response to the raids throughout the region that, though not especially well trained, showed the same bow-necked resilience that the rest of the populace used to get through their daily lives, standing firm on the battlefield against incredible odds, this would come through a bit more strongly.

 

2. Is it regular practice for a marine chapter to select a homeworld for entirely strategic reasons like the War Bearers do in our IA? It's possible they do, I really don't know. It just seems like Natos wouldn't have any particular significance to the early marines who came to the world other than it's location in space and importance to the imperium. I guess what I'm saying is, why did Captain XXXX want to have his chapter housed there? What about Natos made him want to risk potentially angering the mechanicum to live there?

 

3. My gut reaction to the whole Soylent Green, noxious clouds of smoke thing was initially negative, but I'm starting to warm to it. Marine worlds tend to be these desolate, back worldsy kinds of places filled with lush fields and so on. This definitely helps them to stand out. However, when I hear about rumors of people being fed the bodies of dead workers and so on, I think more about a bitter, cynical populace that struggles on because they have to, rather than gritty, hard working people who do their jobs every day because they want to and because they know they need to get done. No real changes need to be made, I think. Perhaps just a shift in tone of that section would be enough to fix it.

 

4. I like the inducting whole squads thing as well. Perhaps one duty of the Librarium would be the education (for lack of a better term) of recruits, once they've passed the squad survival tests and had some of their implants and mental conditioning begun, in the ways, means, and tactics of enemy forces. I think half the reason I like this idea is simply the thought of a bunch of neophytes sitting behind desks, while a Librarian stands at the front of a classroom pointing out comparisons of, say, the assault cannon versus the chaos reaper autocannon on the fields of battle in terms of sheer performance.

[Archangelus]

Hey! This topic is almost forgotten!

 

Regarding the military tradition, I think we need to emphasize more. Probably the planet was ravaged by political/economic fuelled wars between the different domains/principalities before it was rediscovered and brought back into the fold of the Imperium.

 

Roles of the Chaplain: Training and Indoctrination to the Imperial Dogma (basics). Chaplains firmly believe in: Healthy soul in a healthy body. Responsible for physical and spiritual training. Planning and preparation is everything in order to achieve a single, utterly crushing blow to the enemy.

 

 

Role of the Librarian: Archives and data base of imperial and non-imperial battles, tactics, strategies. Learn through others' experiences. Do not repeat mistakes that others' have made. Exploit weak points.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Archangelus

[Tubal]

Not forgotten B)

2. Is it regular practice for a marine chapter to select a homeworld for entirely strategic reasons like the War Bearers do in our IA?

I don't know if there's enough information to go on here, but my impression is that chapters are assigned homeworlds at their founding (or not, for fleetbased chapters). It seems that homeworlds are chosen for strategic importance though, as the Astartes Praeses and Astral Claws show (founded to guard the EoT and the Maelstrom respectively). I don't think it's unreasonable for a fleetbased chapter to decide it's time to settle down though, and who's going to stop them ;)

We discussed a link to the Macharian crusades earlier and how it would affect the chapter. My view is that when the War Bearers settled there the planet would be much closer to the edge of the Imperium, and in need of a lot more protection. If it was already heavily industrialized and the chapter promised to keep paying tithes I think the mechanicus would see enough benefits to back down. They wouldn't have direct control over the planet anyway, outside their High Lord representative, since it isn't a Forgeworld.

 

One thing I started to wonder when I wrote the bit about their recruiting process is this: what are pre-scout recruits called? Scouts are novitiate, and marines are initiates (I believe), but what about the absolutely newest candidates?

They would probably be called serfs later though.

 

Edit++ Speculative timeline:

• M34 - 17th Founding (approximate).
  
• M34-M37 - Crusading as a fleetbased chapter through the galactic west.
  
• ca 200.M38 - Increased threats in the Segmentum Pacificus from raiders and growing ork empires causes the War Bearers to fight many costly wars, the need for a permanent base is increasingly apparent.
  
• ca 400.M38 - The chapter takes the industial world of Natos as their homeworld. Initial concerns by the Adeptus Mechanicus are stilled by chaptermaster XXXX vowing to maintain tithes.
  
• Later half of M38 - Raids decrease significantly, ork activity reduced. Interplanetary trade increases as the surrounding sectors stabilize.
  
• Early M41 - The Macharian crusades. The War Bearers stay mostly uninvolved, preferring to ensure space lanes are kept open.
  
• Present day - The end of the Macharian crusades mean that the area surrounding Natos remains relatively calm. The War Bearers once again mount crusades throughout the segmentum, and beyond.
  

Edited August 16, 2006 by Tubal

[Grimdarkness]

If i may be so bold perhaps take mol's rouge draft and post it as a new thread to get some new ideas or opinions involved it's a 15 page post with 352 replys and a core group perhaps give the rest of the libre the chance to way in as the WB IA seems to have stalled? Maybe ask the U.M forums for ideas as well if not them then maybe Index could help.

 

Just thinking Out Loud.

[Commissar Molotov]

Not forgotten at all, Archangelus. :devil:

 

Regarding emphasising the military tradition - how do you think we could do that, and what do you think it would add to the chapter? You're talking about actual physical wars between the large families. I'd considered that the families wouldn't engage in outright war as the damage to their base of production would eat into profits to such a degree that it would be counter-productive. As soon as outright war between the families enters the frame the planet turns into any other Imperial planet consumed by war with the prerequisite burnt-out buildings.

 

The ideas regarding a Chaplain in a less spiritual/more pragmatic chapter is an interesting one. The idea of planning and preparation are interesting parallels to the Emperor's Children and their tenets regarding being the perfect soldier.

 

I think the Librarian/Librarius would likely be prominent in the chapter. Storing and utilising information against the enemy seem to be important parts of the War Bearers' mindset. I like the idea of 'not repeating the mistakes others have made' - perhaps the chapter isn't always complimentary of the dead? They might scorn 'last stands' and other heroic strategems utilised by other chapters. Perhaps some conflict with other chapters after they've impugned the honour of the dead?

 

Tubal: Interesting point regarding that Natos would be far closer to the edge of the Imperium before the Macharian Crusades. That only strengthens the necessity for protection, I think. Regarding 'Pre-Scouts', I think novitiate is the correct answer - with Neophyte referring to Scouts.

 

. It doesn't seem like the militaristic side of Natos' populace was expressed quite as strongly as I had imagined we were discussing here in the thread. It's possible that this was merely my misinterpretation, of course, but I'd like to see at least some mention of the homeworld having some military training to warrant the War Bearers presence. Perhaps if mention could be made that the populace had created a large, well maintained standing armed force in response to the raids throughout the region that, though not especially well trained, showed the same bow-necked resilience that the rest of the populace used to get through their daily lives, standing firm on the battlefield against incredible odds, this would come through a bit more strongly.

 

2. Is it regular practice for a marine chapter to select a homeworld for entirely strategic reasons like the War Bearers do in our IA? It's possible they do, I really don't know. It just seems like Natos wouldn't have any particular significance to the early marines who came to the world other than it's location in space and importance to the imperium. I guess what I'm saying is, why did Captain XXXX want to have his chapter housed there? What about Natos made him want to risk potentially angering the mechanicum to live there?

 

3. My gut reaction to the whole Soylent Green, noxious clouds of smoke thing was initially negative, but I'm starting to warm to it. Marine worlds tend to be these desolate, back worldsy kinds of places filled with lush fields and so on. This definitely helps them to stand out. However, when I hear about rumors of people being fed the bodies of dead workers and so on, I think more about a bitter, cynical populace that struggles on because they have to, rather than gritty, hard working people who do their jobs every day because they want to and because they know they need to get done. No real changes need to be made, I think. Perhaps just a shift in tone of that section would be enough to fix it.

 

4. I like the inducting whole squads thing as well. Perhaps one duty of the Librarium would be the education (for lack of a better term) of recruits, once they've passed the squad survival tests and had some of their implants and mental conditioning begun, in the ways, means, and tactics of enemy forces. I think half the reason I like this idea is simply the thought of a bunch of neophytes sitting behind desks, while a Librarian stands at the front of a classroom pointing out comparisons of, say, the assault cannon versus the chaos reaper autocannon on the fields of battle in terms of sheer performance.

 

With regards to the 'militaristic' side of Natos, I'm unsure exactly what you mean. The Academies are in place, the planet has a long-standing tradition of exporting Imperial Guardsmen. I'm unsure why Natos has to be militaristic to warrant the presence of the War Bearers. I take it to mean that the marines would be choosing humans that are strong and militaristic to make good recruits. Well, my figuring was that they were actually recruiting intelligent, quick-thinking and useful recruits. The hard work in the factories would tend to result in stronger humans - survival of the fittest and the like. Not every marine chapter needs to recruit from feral cavemen. My interpretation was that the War Bearers were taking a slightly different approach to recruitment - in a sense they're a radical chapter and I thought that their homeworld helped to reflect that. They take decent people and turn them into soldiers, rather than taking bloodthirsty warriors and instilling them with culture. But as I said, I'd be interested to read more detailed feedback to try to understand exactly what you're not happy about.

 

I don't think that Captain XXXX was trying to anger the Mechanicus (or was planning to annoy the Mechanicus). As Tubal has suggested, there are precedents for marines to take homeworlds for Strategic reasons. I think that XXXX simply ensured the Mechanicus wouldn't object.

 

I wasn't intending the populace to be seen as bitter and cynical. I also wasn't intending for these rumours to be particularly wide-spread or known amongst the working populace. The nod to Soylent Green was well-caught, though. :D I was rather more trying to make the hard-working, dilligent people that you refer to, AWOL.

 

I do like your ideas regarding Librarians tutoring the Neophytes, though... that's something I hadn't considered.

[Tubal]

Outright war seems wasteful and would probably get the marine's attention, but small scale conflicts could be somewhat common. I think we should avoid putting too much emphasis on it though.

 

Regarding 'Pre-Scouts', I think novitiate is the correct answer - with Neophyte referring to Scouts.

That sounds about right. After consulting the tomes (google) it seems that a novitiate is a prospective member and a neophyte is a new member of a religious order. The many definitions are a bit confusing but it's close enough for the 41st millennium. :devil: (Googling for "define:word" usually yields several definitions. Edited August 18, 2006 by Tubal

[Grimdarkness]

Regarding emphasising the military tradition - how do you think we could do that, and what do you think it would add to the chapter? You're talking about actual physical wars between the large families. I'd considered that the families wouldn't engage in outright war as the damage to their base of production would eat into profits to such a degree that it would be counter-productive. As soon as outright war between the families enters the frame the planet turns into any other Imperial planet consumed by war with the prerequisite burnt-out buildings.

 

maybe the remains of a leading house's factories and complex are used(there left as an urban combat zone so as to remind the leading houses just what all out conflict can cost them) if two families are in conflict they choose there best academy soldiers and play a capture the flag type game. When a side captures the flag the conflict is resolved and there is no need for further conflict. It's sort of like Honor duels but without stepping on the IF fluff. :P

Edited August 19, 2006 by Grimdarkness