Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Grimdarkness]

I say go with Pacificus for a couple of reasons the first being that theres a lot of space to play with and it avoids having the war bearers in a system with the crimson fists and morifactors in the system or near. There's also the astronomicon and the fact that it can be barley detected in the region making navigation risky. The macharian and sabbot world crusades give the segmentum and the war bearers a little flavour in that you can tie these events from imperial history into the back story of the chapters history for reason's they served or did not serve in said crusades.

[AWOL]

After doing a bit of reading on Macharius and his crusade (it falls into a gap in my fluff knowledge, so excuse me if I'm incorrect on certain points) I'm leaning towards Pacificum for a couple reasons.

 

1)Molotov suggested having the world be one that was claimed as a result of one of the bigger crusades. It frankly don't get much bigger than this Macharian crusade. So, perhaps, the chapter came about during/shortly afterword and was founded to serve, at least initially, as a stabilizing factor for the newly conquered region?

 

2)The Macharian Crusade seems to me like the shining example of the Imperial Guard at it's finest, and we want a reason to forge a link between our chapter and the IG. Their greatest commander is entombed in this part of the galaxy. Maybe the War Bearers hold him in some kind of special regard, perhaps seeing their own battles as an extension of his great crusade. This could tie in to our idea of them bearing the weight of war, since the macharian crusade merely ended because the IG soldiers involved grew tired of the battle and turned around to head home, exemplifying the weight of war being too much for normal men to bear for long.

[Commissar Molotov]

You raise an excellent point there, regarding the weight of war, but it's perhaps something we could use generically rather than a specific example. My greatest concern is that the Macharian Crusade was very recent in the 40k timeline. Macharius died in 400.M41, and I'd personally like to steer the chapter away from such huge pillars of 40k. We want to create our own niche, rather than resting in someone else's, I feel. It also runs counter to our theme for the War Bearers to be a youthful chapter, I feel. We seem to be going for grizzled, practical veterans.

[AWOL]

Hmm. Perhaps it's merely something they point to as an example of why they do what they do, then. It just seems too fitting to pass up.

[Commissar Molotov]

Indeed; I really like the concept; it meshes exceptionally well with what we seem to have at the moment. I agree that it should be incorporated.

[Tubal]

Phew, mother of all threads... In fact, it's so long I started writing in notepad so I wouldn't forget my ideas before I finished reading! :P (That I was out of town for a week, and then didn't dare start reading the thread for another few days didn't help...)

 

I'll touch on a few subjects but I'll start with the current one: location (location, location).

I think putting the world towards the 'east' of Segmentum Pacificus, closer to the border to Segmentum Solar would be a good idea. This would fulfill a number of goals:

1. The world would have been settled for quite a long time, allowing it to either work it's way up to an advanced technological level or (if settled after the great crusade) never have fallen below it's current level.
   
2. It would mean that the world could have become more important as the Macharian crusade went on.
   
3. It would give the chapter a link to the crusades without them having to be founded after it.
   
4. The chapter would have a reason to be there before the crusade: the world could previously have been part of the frontier.
   
5. It would let us have a chapter that used to be defensive but is now more offensive as their homeworld lies far inside established borders.
   

I personally don't like the idea of a fortress world since that would mean they would have to have something to defend and several other worlds to supply it with material and food. A specialized world (forgeworld, agriworld, hiveworld) cannot comfortably survive on it's own. Also, since it seems we want the world to have increased it's military there wouldn't have been anything exceptionally dangerous to defend from to begin with, and after the Macharian crusade it's unlikely that anything would appear to warrant a fortress world.

Just my view :)

I'd prefer it if the world itself was relatively generic, but with a martial tone. Most youths would be expected to go through military training at a young age and the world could produce significant amounts of guard regiments and PDF (as well as many candidates for induction into the WB's), but a purely military world isn't necessary.

 

You could have the marines recruit large numbers of youths from the academies and take them to their base (perhaps orbital or on the moon) for further training. I like the idea of making cooperation extremely important, perhaps all recruits are considered brothers as soon as they are selected for further training? Equality fosters brotherhood after all, and letting the recruits know that they are important improves morale and cooperation.

Those that survive the initial training would be tested for genetic compatability, those that pass are inducted into the scout company and the rest are trained further to elite soldiers. Molotov mentioned using 'failed' recruits as inducted storm troopers, and I like that idea. All chapters have serfs, the War Bearer's are just a little more pro-active than usual :P

Having un-augemented humans as an important part of the chapter is a completely un-used angle (AFAIK). Only the Alpha Legion regularly use human troops, and I doubt they see them as part of the legion...

Also, remember that a large part of the axe's popularity historically is because of it's cost. The vikings really liked swords but an axe (or spear) only needs a fraction of the metal a sword needs, and the quality of the metal is less important. The storm troopers could be the wooden handle to the marine's axe-head.

 

The feel of the chapter may end up a little to bright and cheerful for the grim dark future with my ideas, but I'm sure there are ways to darken them down :)

 

I'll stop there I think...

Edited July 25, 2006 by Tubal

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for your input, Tubal. You can always be relied upon for insightful and useful commentary. When I was talking about a fortress world, I was thinking of something between Cadia and Port Maw. For the uninitiated, Port Maw is the capital of the Gothic Sector, near the Eye of Terror. As the sector capital, it's built up and heavily defended. I quite liked the idea of a marine chapter recruiting from a world totally geared towards the military aspect of the Imperium. Such a sector capital would stay busy, unlike a route to a crusade, which might slacken off after the crusade culminates in a victory (or a defeat). Especially if this is a sector that's prone to attacks (whether by Ork Freebooterz, Human Pirates, whatever, Cretacian Repto-Soldiers or what). It's something to consider, certainly.

[Tubal]

Thanks :P

Btw, since it's what I do I threw together a quickie symbol and generated a decal sheet: (click)

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/Tubal/Transfers/th_WarBearers_beta.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/Tubal/Transfers/th_WarBearers_beta2.gif

 

The middle symbol is enlarged for clarity of course. It's quite closely based on the original (as seen on page one) though I wasn't too concerned with quality: it's a quickie after all, and can be refined later. The War Bearer's symbol is black which makes it very suitable for home-printing, whether you have an inkjet or a monochrome laser like me.

Although it might be a little early to discuss specifics I'd like to note that I could make a matching set of black squad markings, or the standard white decals in the SM box could be used (as GW probably did judging by their example model).

 

Edit++ Added another beta, a thicker and simpler version. I prefer that one.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Tubal

[AWOL]

So are we close to a consensus on location? It seems like Pacificum is the popular choice, but I'm not sure if we've come to a conclusion otherwise. Is there a notorious enemy in this area of space? Or did the crusade clear everybody out.

 

Oh, and check out who just showed up on my modeling table.

[Archangelus]

Tubal,

 

nice work there! I like the first one better.

 

 

Regarding the homeworld I like the idea of "Civilised Imperial World" with a militaristic twist. Not a fortress world as such but one with a long military tradition.

 

I also really liked the idea of stormtroopers as recruits, who did not make the cut biologically. And they would be so easy to use game-wise using DH or WH allies (no inquisitors or any other fancy stuff, just 1-2 stormtrooper squads). "Waste not. Want not."

 

Somehow I start picturing the WB homeworld like Switzerland. Relatively cold, Mountains & valleys, Principalities (cantons), military tradition (Swiss mercenaries and papal guard, every man goes to the army and has to keep and maintain a firearm at home), very down to earth and practical people in general. Giving this a twist with slavic names and maybe something extra, something "spicy", we could have a solid homeworld. And we can always leave the "cheese" out of it (pun intended).

 

What do you think?

 

++Cool mini AWOL! although I would suggest a bit lighter green... ++

Edited July 25, 2006 by Archangelus

[AWOL]

Yeah, the green's a bit dark, but inadequate lighting is a part of that. Also, I didn't really like the lighter green that they're supposed to have, either. And yellow stripes on the helmets? Red eyes? Did the grinch pick out their color scheme?

[Tubal]

Well green eyes don't work, obviously, and yellow and blue doesn't fit all that well. They have to be red. The stripe is a necessary evil too, though I don't think it looks that bad. Choose another company if it bothers you :P

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, AWOL, I don't think we should start changing the colour scheme, if only because that's one of the few pieces of concrete information we received from Games Workshop. The War Bearers might not be glamorous, but they get the job done, and they get it done well. Theirs is not a war of parade-ground perfection, but of victory despite overwhelming odds.

 

It's odd that you should mention Switzerland, though, Archangelus. I was born in Switzerland and I have a fair bit of experience with the country. They certainly have a lot of useful influences we can draw upon. It's something I hadn't considered, so good spot!

 

For now, let's assume that Pacificus is the choice, unless someone comes up with a major alternative or something forces us to change. What I'd like to focus next on is the founding. How old should the War Bearers be?

[Grimdarkness]

Any where between 14 and 20 it gives them about 3 to 4 thousand or more years of history or if we want really old how about 8 or 9 which would make them 7 or 8 thousand yeas old.

[AWOL]

The color scheme doesn't really bother me that much, I just thought it was funny, was all. Obviously it's not somethng we can change, though.

 

Hmm, founding time. I've skimmed resources online regarding spacemarine timelines (wikipedia mostly) and not seen a lot of details on any of them other than 1, 2, 13, 21, and the most recent. Obviously we don't want either of the cursed foundings, and I don't think we want to go all the way back to single digits. I would suggest that, since they are apparently aware of their Ultramarine heritage (or at least the records survived) I would tend to stray towards a more recent founding within whatever range we find suitable. So, 19 or 20 maybe.

Edited July 25, 2006 by AWOL

[Grimdarkness]

something to think about for history of the WB

[Archangelus]

Well green eyes don't work, obviously, and yellow and blue doesn't fit all that well.

 

Scorpion Green or yellow eyes wouldn't look bad...

[AWOL]

Things seem to have ground to a bit of a halt. I think part of the problem is that we're planning on having our chapter be fairly uninvolved, as far as the major conflicts in the Imperium's history goes, since we're hoping to avoid having our fluff get crushed beneath the great GW fluff wheels. As such, we're left with a situation with few landmarks and, thus, no real specifics to guide us as to when we want to get started. Maybe it would be best to sketch out some rough ideas as to the chapter's history first, and then try to hammer down a founding date once we know what we're trying to accomplish.

[Grimdarkness]

could we get a boiled down version of what we do have so as to better decide what we need to think about for the rest of the IA.

 

Home world

Founding

Combat Doctrine

Gene Seed

Location

Brief history

 

Thanks

[Commissar Molotov]

I don't think that things have ground to a halt at all. And I certainly don't think that having the chapter be uninvolved with the greater history of the Imperium is even a problem. Some IAs on this board have been years in the making so I don't think we're at any sort of creative plateau, so to speak. Tubal's been working on some excellent WB colour-scheme stuff, one example of which you can see here:

 

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2861/warbearers02ti6.gif

 

 

 

 

With regards to Grim's post, I had actually been working on something similar. Here's what we have thus far:

 

Origins

A speculative (currently undecided) founding somewhere between 14 and 18.

 

Homeworld

A Civilised/Industrialised Imperial World in the Segmentum Pacificus, straddling a major trade route. The capital system of a sector, the system is heavily defended; Orbital docks litter the system, loading and unloading vessels. The system is an important component of the Imperium - both militarily and economically. The planet itself is surrounded by sizeable orbital installations, though they are dwarfed by the War Bearer's ancient star-fortress, a gigantic construction capable of housing the chapter's living spaces, forges, training grounds and docking facilities. The fortress is jealously guarded, not just by the War Bearers but also the inhabitants of the planet - they are proud of their role in defending the Imperium.

 

The planet is divided into states/cantons, each presided over by a noble house. These noble houses compete economically and politically for dominance over the planet - the dominant family wins the position of Planetary Governor somehow? Perhaps on the death of a governor? So usually the role is maintained by the same family, but sometimes it can change.

 

All children are inducted into the PDF training academies and are then released at a certain age to join the workforce* - however they can be called up (like reservists) and included in a Imperial Guard tithe. The planet's moon has a thin but breathable atmosphere, and has been converted by the Academies into a training ground, where warzones of most types can be simulated. This is used to rigorously train the soldiers. Each canton/state maintains an academy and the academies fight against eachother in wargames?

 

The Space Marines take their pick of the young soldiers training at the academies for their neophytes. It is seen as an honour for a family to have a child taken by the Astartes.

 

Beliefs

The War Bearers see Space Marines as the last line of defense in the Imperium. They are the keystone, coordinating with the Imperial Guard to crush the enemy. They see themselves as bearing the weight of war so that the ordinary citizenry of the Imperium doesn't** have to do so.

 

[Possible viewpoint that the ordinary human isn't capable of bearing the weight of war, but this seems to make them very elitist]

 

They work ceaselessly to protect the citizen body of the Imperium - possible links with their homeworld? If humans are very important in the factories of their homeworld, if the world is geared-up economically, the families trying to make every penny they can... perhaps the War Bearers see the loss of human life as damaging the Imperium's ability to sustain itself.

 

Many see the War Bearers as being very pragmatic:

 

# Dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences; practical.

# Relating to or being the study of cause and effect in historical or political events with emphasis on the practical lessons to be learned from them.

 

They are practical, working hard to better themselves and fight well. They are well-grounded, and perhaps not as surrounded in religious symbology as some chapters? This could again link to their homeworld.

 

They study previous battles, much like the Raven Guard, attempting to improve upon their tactics and learn from the actions of their predecessors. (Dreadnoughts?)

 

Combat Doctrine

Combat Doctrine is styled like an axe - A situtation leads to (relatively, by marine standards) slow and measured approach whereby a carefully considered plan is drawn up, then the 'axe' 'falls' and the Chapter strikes decisively and quickly, leading to the total destruction of the enemy.

 

For the most part, adhere to the Codex.

 

There is less focus on individual heroism, rather more on the goal itself. Perhaps greater focus on synergy? Recruits are inducted and they succeed or fail as squads, rather than as individuals. A neophyte's short-comings are compensated for by others.

 

Gene Seed

The gene-seed of Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines. There is no mutation and the War Bearers maintain the use of all of their organs.

 

 

* Something similar to Starship Troopers, where to become a 'citizen' you have to have served in the PDF?

 

**Which could conflict with the Starship Troopers concept. They're fighting to defend those who aren't fighting to protect themselves, who aren't 'worthy citizens'. As such, it might be worth modifying the Starship Troopers concept - or we just consider that the War Bearers don't adopt such attitudes.

 

 

Does this help?

Edited July 27, 2006 by Commissar Molotov

[Grimdarkness]

Does this help?

 

Very much so thanks again

 

Tubal asked about the tac squad markings which GW had as white i vote to stick with the white or if possible could we see a red squad badge ala DA?

[Zhivago]

How they separete veteran sergeants ?

 

One assums that sarges would have red helm, with yellow stripe, but how about veteran sergeants ?

 

EDIT: As constructive suggestion, what if veteran sergeants have white skull on chest armour ? Or prehaps inverted pauladrons a la Blood Angels ?

Edited July 27, 2006 by Zhivago

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, that's something that we'd need to discuss. But it's something I think should wait until near the end of the project.

 

As a note, I was considering that the helmet stripe possibly denotes company colour. Do the War Bearers feature in How to Paint Space Marines?

Edited July 27, 2006 by Commissar Molotov

[Archangelus]

Excellent summary there, Commissar!

 

Nice colour schemes, Tubal.

 

The stripe denotes company, according to Insignium Astartes, I think. I do not have the book though, could someone confirm this please :D

 

How about this: Regular Marines have black squad markings. Sergeants have Red ones and Vet.Sergeants have white markings. Like the codex colour coding but not on the helmets. Squad number can be on the kneepad (Roman numerals?).

Edited July 27, 2006 by Archangelus

[Commissar Molotov]

How about this: Regular Marines have black squad markings. Sergeants have Red ones and Vet.Sergeants have white markings. Like the codex colour coding but not on the helmets. Squad number can be on the kneepad (Roman numerals?).

 

Well, there's always the possibility that if the helmet stripe denotes company colour, the shoulder-pad rims could be red for sergeants and white for veterans, or something. But yes, let's leave that for later and focus on the IA article as a whole, for now. :D