Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Archangelus]

Hey! This topic is almost forgotten!

 

Regarding the military tradition, I think we need to emphasize more. Probably the planet was ravaged by political/economic fuelled wars between the different domains/principalities before it was rediscovered and brought back into the fold of the Imperium.

 

Roles of the Chaplain: Training and Indoctrination to the Imperial Dogma (basics). Chaplains firmly believe in: Healthy soul in a healthy body. Responsible for physical and spiritual training. Planning and preparation is everything in order to achieve a single, utterly crushing blow to the enemy.

 

 

Role of the Librarian: Archives and data base of imperial and non-imperial battles, tactics, strategies. Learn through others' experiences. Do not repeat mistakes that others' have made. Exploit weak points.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Archangelus

[Tubal]

Not forgotten B)

2. Is it regular practice for a marine chapter to select a homeworld for entirely strategic reasons like the War Bearers do in our IA?

I don't know if there's enough information to go on here, but my impression is that chapters are assigned homeworlds at their founding (or not, for fleetbased chapters). It seems that homeworlds are chosen for strategic importance though, as the Astartes Praeses and Astral Claws show (founded to guard the EoT and the Maelstrom respectively). I don't think it's unreasonable for a fleetbased chapter to decide it's time to settle down though, and who's going to stop them ;)

We discussed a link to the Macharian crusades earlier and how it would affect the chapter. My view is that when the War Bearers settled there the planet would be much closer to the edge of the Imperium, and in need of a lot more protection. If it was already heavily industrialized and the chapter promised to keep paying tithes I think the mechanicus would see enough benefits to back down. They wouldn't have direct control over the planet anyway, outside their High Lord representative, since it isn't a Forgeworld.

 

One thing I started to wonder when I wrote the bit about their recruiting process is this: what are pre-scout recruits called? Scouts are novitiate, and marines are initiates (I believe), but what about the absolutely newest candidates?

They would probably be called serfs later though.

 

Edit++ Speculative timeline:

• M34 - 17th Founding (approximate).
  
• M34-M37 - Crusading as a fleetbased chapter through the galactic west.
  
• ca 200.M38 - Increased threats in the Segmentum Pacificus from raiders and growing ork empires causes the War Bearers to fight many costly wars, the need for a permanent base is increasingly apparent.
  
• ca 400.M38 - The chapter takes the industial world of Natos as their homeworld. Initial concerns by the Adeptus Mechanicus are stilled by chaptermaster XXXX vowing to maintain tithes.
  
• Later half of M38 - Raids decrease significantly, ork activity reduced. Interplanetary trade increases as the surrounding sectors stabilize.
  
• Early M41 - The Macharian crusades. The War Bearers stay mostly uninvolved, preferring to ensure space lanes are kept open.
  
• Present day - The end of the Macharian crusades mean that the area surrounding Natos remains relatively calm. The War Bearers once again mount crusades throughout the segmentum, and beyond.
  

Edited August 16, 2006 by Tubal

[Grimdarkness]

If i may be so bold perhaps take mol's rouge draft and post it as a new thread to get some new ideas or opinions involved it's a 15 page post with 352 replys and a core group perhaps give the rest of the libre the chance to way in as the WB IA seems to have stalled? Maybe ask the U.M forums for ideas as well if not them then maybe Index could help.

 

Just thinking Out Loud.

[Commissar Molotov]

Not forgotten at all, Archangelus. :devil:

 

Regarding emphasising the military tradition - how do you think we could do that, and what do you think it would add to the chapter? You're talking about actual physical wars between the large families. I'd considered that the families wouldn't engage in outright war as the damage to their base of production would eat into profits to such a degree that it would be counter-productive. As soon as outright war between the families enters the frame the planet turns into any other Imperial planet consumed by war with the prerequisite burnt-out buildings.

 

The ideas regarding a Chaplain in a less spiritual/more pragmatic chapter is an interesting one. The idea of planning and preparation are interesting parallels to the Emperor's Children and their tenets regarding being the perfect soldier.

 

I think the Librarian/Librarius would likely be prominent in the chapter. Storing and utilising information against the enemy seem to be important parts of the War Bearers' mindset. I like the idea of 'not repeating the mistakes others have made' - perhaps the chapter isn't always complimentary of the dead? They might scorn 'last stands' and other heroic strategems utilised by other chapters. Perhaps some conflict with other chapters after they've impugned the honour of the dead?

 

Tubal: Interesting point regarding that Natos would be far closer to the edge of the Imperium before the Macharian Crusades. That only strengthens the necessity for protection, I think. Regarding 'Pre-Scouts', I think novitiate is the correct answer - with Neophyte referring to Scouts.

 

. It doesn't seem like the militaristic side of Natos' populace was expressed quite as strongly as I had imagined we were discussing here in the thread. It's possible that this was merely my misinterpretation, of course, but I'd like to see at least some mention of the homeworld having some military training to warrant the War Bearers presence. Perhaps if mention could be made that the populace had created a large, well maintained standing armed force in response to the raids throughout the region that, though not especially well trained, showed the same bow-necked resilience that the rest of the populace used to get through their daily lives, standing firm on the battlefield against incredible odds, this would come through a bit more strongly.

 

2. Is it regular practice for a marine chapter to select a homeworld for entirely strategic reasons like the War Bearers do in our IA? It's possible they do, I really don't know. It just seems like Natos wouldn't have any particular significance to the early marines who came to the world other than it's location in space and importance to the imperium. I guess what I'm saying is, why did Captain XXXX want to have his chapter housed there? What about Natos made him want to risk potentially angering the mechanicum to live there?

 

3. My gut reaction to the whole Soylent Green, noxious clouds of smoke thing was initially negative, but I'm starting to warm to it. Marine worlds tend to be these desolate, back worldsy kinds of places filled with lush fields and so on. This definitely helps them to stand out. However, when I hear about rumors of people being fed the bodies of dead workers and so on, I think more about a bitter, cynical populace that struggles on because they have to, rather than gritty, hard working people who do their jobs every day because they want to and because they know they need to get done. No real changes need to be made, I think. Perhaps just a shift in tone of that section would be enough to fix it.

 

4. I like the inducting whole squads thing as well. Perhaps one duty of the Librarium would be the education (for lack of a better term) of recruits, once they've passed the squad survival tests and had some of their implants and mental conditioning begun, in the ways, means, and tactics of enemy forces. I think half the reason I like this idea is simply the thought of a bunch of neophytes sitting behind desks, while a Librarian stands at the front of a classroom pointing out comparisons of, say, the assault cannon versus the chaos reaper autocannon on the fields of battle in terms of sheer performance.

 

With regards to the 'militaristic' side of Natos, I'm unsure exactly what you mean. The Academies are in place, the planet has a long-standing tradition of exporting Imperial Guardsmen. I'm unsure why Natos has to be militaristic to warrant the presence of the War Bearers. I take it to mean that the marines would be choosing humans that are strong and militaristic to make good recruits. Well, my figuring was that they were actually recruiting intelligent, quick-thinking and useful recruits. The hard work in the factories would tend to result in stronger humans - survival of the fittest and the like. Not every marine chapter needs to recruit from feral cavemen. My interpretation was that the War Bearers were taking a slightly different approach to recruitment - in a sense they're a radical chapter and I thought that their homeworld helped to reflect that. They take decent people and turn them into soldiers, rather than taking bloodthirsty warriors and instilling them with culture. But as I said, I'd be interested to read more detailed feedback to try to understand exactly what you're not happy about.

 

I don't think that Captain XXXX was trying to anger the Mechanicus (or was planning to annoy the Mechanicus). As Tubal has suggested, there are precedents for marines to take homeworlds for Strategic reasons. I think that XXXX simply ensured the Mechanicus wouldn't object.

 

I wasn't intending the populace to be seen as bitter and cynical. I also wasn't intending for these rumours to be particularly wide-spread or known amongst the working populace. The nod to Soylent Green was well-caught, though. :D I was rather more trying to make the hard-working, dilligent people that you refer to, AWOL.

 

I do like your ideas regarding Librarians tutoring the Neophytes, though... that's something I hadn't considered.

[Tubal]

Outright war seems wasteful and would probably get the marine's attention, but small scale conflicts could be somewhat common. I think we should avoid putting too much emphasis on it though.

 

Regarding 'Pre-Scouts', I think novitiate is the correct answer - with Neophyte referring to Scouts.

That sounds about right. After consulting the tomes (google) it seems that a novitiate is a prospective member and a neophyte is a new member of a religious order. The many definitions are a bit confusing but it's close enough for the 41st millennium. :devil: (Googling for "define:word" usually yields several definitions. Edited August 18, 2006 by Tubal

[Grimdarkness]

Regarding emphasising the military tradition - how do you think we could do that, and what do you think it would add to the chapter? You're talking about actual physical wars between the large families. I'd considered that the families wouldn't engage in outright war as the damage to their base of production would eat into profits to such a degree that it would be counter-productive. As soon as outright war between the families enters the frame the planet turns into any other Imperial planet consumed by war with the prerequisite burnt-out buildings.

 

maybe the remains of a leading house's factories and complex are used(there left as an urban combat zone so as to remind the leading houses just what all out conflict can cost them) if two families are in conflict they choose there best academy soldiers and play a capture the flag type game. When a side captures the flag the conflict is resolved and there is no need for further conflict. It's sort of like Honor duels but without stepping on the IF fluff. :P

Edited August 19, 2006 by Grimdarkness

[Nine_Breaker]

maybe the remains of a leading house's factories and complex are used(there left as an urban combat zone so as to remind the leading houses just what all out conflict can cost them) if two families are in conflict they choose there best academy soldiers and play a capture the flag type game. When a side captures the flag the conflict is resolved and there is no need for further conflict.

 

I don't know...seems awefully 'nice' for a bunch of backstabbing aristocrats. However, I do agree that all out wars would simply be counter-productive. Would it be beyond these families to use saboteurs and such once in awhile? It would cost next to nothing to arm a couple factory workers, and a successful attack could set another family back quite a bit (for the time being anyhow). then again though, this wouldn't really add much (if anything) to the War Bearers themselves.

 

As for an idea for the Chaplains, what if they were to act less like priests and zealots, and more like Commissars? They'd be the ones to make sure individuals don't try to do something stupid/heroic, that their battle-brothers aren't found wanting in the face of the enemy, that everybody does their duty, et cetera.

[Darrell]

As for an idea for the Chaplains, what if they were to act less like priests and zealots, and more like Commissars? They'd be the ones to make sure individuals don't try to do something stupid/heroic, that their battle-brothers aren't found wanting in the face of the enemy, that everybody does their duty, et cetera.

 

An interesting idea, but I think poorly worded. Everything a Space Marine does is heroic; their existence is a life of sacrifice for Mankind. There is less than one Space Marine for every world in the Imperium, yet they are enough for the task given to them. When they go to war, they fight against enemies who outnumber them many times over, and yet they still prevail. Space Marine Chapters engage in fights too brutal for humans, in environments too brutal for humans, over a length of time too brutal for humans. They are, by definition, heroes. I think what you want to avoid is needless sacrifice and last stands; these things need not make the Chapter any less brave, honorable, or heroic.

 

The Chaplain being the anti-zealout is interesting, though, since it is a 180 from the way Chaplains usually function in a Chapter. They usually spur their comrades with stirring rhetoric and zealous speech that drives the Space Marines into religious fervor. Perhaps instead of rousing speeches and shouting Litanies of Hate, perhaps the Chaplains of the War Bearers recite passages from the Codex Astartes in a consistently calm, controlled voice so as to maintain the feeling of pragmatism in his Brothers.

[Archangelus]

Nice ideas out there :blush:

 

When I mentioned wars, I was referring to the period BEFORE Natos was re-discovered by the Imperium and became homeworld of the WB.

 

Now they all play nicely, having a go at each other via the Academy Wargames.

 

The chaplain could be very zealous regarding the end results. Instead of shouting: "Charge! Purge the enemies of the Imperium!"

He would be more like: "We have to capture this bridge. And there have to be enough of us to hold it. Remember the Codex! Glory, not death!

Edited August 19, 2006 by Archangelus

[Nine_Breaker]

An interesting idea, but I think poorly worded. Everything a Space Marine does is heroic; their existence is a life of sacrifice for Mankind.

 

From what I've read, the War Bearers frown upon individual heroics, as they could leave the rest of the squad/force in a bad position. I figure this is why they train in squads and the like. I'm saying the Chaplains would make sure a marine didn't go running off, against orders, to go destroy an ork dreadnought or charge an AT bunker all by his lonesome.

 

However, if the force were to do something as a whole that would mean certain death (like last stands, which aren't always needless sacrifices), then the Chaplains would be there to make sure none of the battle-brothers faltered in their duty. The battle-brothers would know they were about to die, but the Chaplains would make sure every marine is ready to go out with a bang instead of being half-arsed about it because they know their dead already.

[Tubal]

IMO the War Bearers have to have faith of some type, or they won't survive their first battle against chaos. It doesn't have to be religious faith as such, it could be faith in the chapter and the Emperor (as the lord of mankind), but it has to be something. The chaplains would instill and reinforce (and enforce) that faith during training and on the battlefield, as a regular chaplain, but the way they go about it might be different from normal chapters.

Since they don't believe in the Emperor as a god they can't use blessings and 'the Emperor protects' to improve morale: they have to appeal to the marines' sense of duty and self-sacrifice to a higher degree than other chapters.

 

The 'Beliefs' part of the IA could turn out to be the hardest to put onto paper :P

[Grimdarkness]

The 'Beliefs' part of the IA could turn out to be the hardest to put onto paper

 

The imperial church has a problem with marines seeing the emp not as a god but the very best or pinacel of mankind maybe the WB see him as the apex of what a warrior should be. so instead of the emperor protects they have the Emperor watches over us or the empeore would/is proud? :P

[Hrvat]

On the matters of faith the best soultion would be the faith into themselves.

 

Where another Marine would say "Emperor give me strength to coplete this task" the WB would say "We can do it!"

 

On the matter of beliefs we might use that Conan thing "The Emperor help only those who help themselves!"

[AWOL]

On the matter of beliefs we might use that Conan thing "The Emperor help only those who help themselves!"

 

Hmm, I think that has some possibilities.

 

Maybe what I was thinking as far as having the world possess a military tradition would be some record of them defending themselves before the arrival of the Warbearers from outside attackers. As was pointed out, they were on the fringe of the Imperium until just recently. They must have had some enemies attacking them from time to time. How did they defend themselves? How did their armies wage war? What effect did this have on the combat doctrines of the War Bearers?

 

I guess the mass industrialization does add to the "Grim Darkness"-yness of their world. It just kind of feels like we're stepping away slightly from the original focus on the War Bearers being "the common man" when their world is so thoroughly dominated by these aristocratic families on the top. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. It's really just a redefinition of our original thought. Maybe a mention somewhere in the section about how the Inquistion/Administratum/Somebody else has often commented on the fact that, despite the harsh conditions, the citizens of Natos not only endure the conditions but, in fact, embrace them as a means to pushing themselves to accomplish their planetary objectives...or something.

Edited August 20, 2006 by AWOL

[AWOL]

Why is it that every time I post on this thread, all activity ceases for days, lol? :)

[Tubal]

Don't take it personally. If you're the most frequent poster it's most likely to happen to you :jaw:

 

It just kind of feels like we're stepping away slightly from the original focus on the War Bearers being "the common man" when their world is so thoroughly dominated by these aristocratic families on the top.

All planets have a ruling body, even if it's just an imperial govenor in a fort. For example I don't imagine ogryn planets having a very centralised goverment :)

Noble families, or merchant guilds etc, seem to be the most common forms of goverment aside from the purely dictatorial. All planets have to have an imperial govenor with overall responsibility but on space marine homeworlds I think that duty lies with the chapter master, at least in theory. They most likely have non-marines handling the day-to-day business though.

 

We could spread out the power a little, below the govenor that is, by having many noble families competing. Perhaps the planet could be organized in dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of city-states with several larger families vying for the top. Every city would be mostly independent but competing for off-world contracts with the mechanicum, munitorium etc. It would put the power closer to the people, unlike hive-worlds like Necromunda or Armageddon, but it wouldn't make the planet too sugary sweet to fit in :jaw:

 

City-states sounds a bit ancient italian/greek but I don't think there would be a problem with giving the planet another overall culture.

[Commissar Molotov]

I don't think the War Bearers were ever billed as 'the common man', although I did make almost proletarian suggestions in the drafted IA. Rather, they protect the 'common Imperials'.

[AWOL]

Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed then. One of the main design points was to make the war bearers seem more like common soldiers and less like individual heroes, right? Maybe that's what threw me off.

[Archangelus]

I think we are on the right track, so far.

 

The WB protect the common imperial citizens from threats they could never hope to face themselves. The WB also believe in co-ordinated action and teamwork. Individual heroics are not encouraged, as they can jeopardise the whole unit and the achievement of its objectives. Of course if there is a need for sacrifice to get the job done, a War Bearer would not bat an eyelid before acting decisively.

 

Do you remember the story in the SM Codex under the apothecary entry, where a Space Marine shields his Battle-brothers from an underground mortar shell by throwing himself on it just in time. These kind of heroics are the stuff the War Bearers are made of!

Edited August 25, 2006 by Archangelus

[Tubal]

Well, the War Bearers themselves can't really be "common" since they are space marines :lol:

[Grimdarkness]

I have to ask why are we changing the chaplain the WB are strictly codex so there chaplains should be as well. Cassius dose not read like a zealot in the SM Codex. The job of training the scouts falls to the reserve company so the neophyte is trained be a village not just a chaplain/librarian it also serves as a better transition to the chapter if a group of new scouts are posted to the 6th to learn tactical combat those who show prowess with the combat bikes or speeders would be sent to the 7th and all marines should spend some time in the 8th or 9th to have an understanding of the heavy weapons of the chapter.

 

On the codex matter have we chosen a chapter that the captain/chapter master hails from. If not can i suggest one of the counsuls chapters.

[Archangelus]

We do not deviate from Codex Chaplain. We just fine-tune the Chaplain's role to fit better with the Chapter's attitude.

 

Regarding the Chapter Master's origins the White/Black Consuls suggested above are a good choice but my personal suggestion is:

 

Genesis Chapter

 

It has not been used much as a chapter by GW.

[Grimdarkness]

We do not deviate from Codex Chaplain. We just fine-tune the Chaplain's role to fit better with the Chapter's attitude.

 

Which is one of professional soldiers they know the job they have and what needs to be done why do the WB need there chaplains to enforce that?

[Archangelus]

They do not need to enforce that. They are not Commissars or anything. After all even the most pragmatic Space Marine will need faith to shield him from the horrors of the Warp.

 

The chaplain's role is spiritual instruction and support anyway. In the WB a chaplain also does part of the training. In terms of faith the dogma stresses the point of "effectiveness" instead of "glory".

 

A like to think that a War Bearer Chaplain would advise like this:

 

"After all you serve the Emperor and by fulfilling your duties you give glory to HIM.

 

Yes, the sound of the Boltgun is a prayer to Him.

Yes, the dead enemies of the Imperium are an offering to him.

But if you fail? Then what? Do not die and fail! Live and succeed!"

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Hello Brothers! I