RapatoR

On an unrelated note, I love how the BL units with unmarked icons autopass Combat Attrition Tests.

Just to be clear, I am extremely happy about the codex. My struggle is in seeing a standpoint from which these restrictions are better solution than a bitz store or weapon packs.

This, so much this. A lot of restrictions in this (and other) codexes wouldn't be necessary if GW had "bitz store" or sold weapon packs.

My bad for being unclear, I meant "bare bones" 5-man squads in addition to other, kitted-out squads. I am expecting there will be additional actions in our codex so I was thinking about fielding some unit(s) purely to be "action-doers". I have seen some of you suggested to add some equipment anyway, but wouldn't that be wasted when they have to run around and do actions?

How do you guys see a prospect of a "bare-bones" 5-man units that would just run around and do actions? Would you field one? Two? None?

Welp, now I am starting to feel like a power gamer for having 80+ basic marines and 6 rhinos.

Ok, so I reread the entire thread and here is quick summary of my options: 'Rebuilding' - Warband starts anew after being destroyed. 'You died at Drol Kheir' - Their end was just a rumor circulating among chaos forces. 'Demise postponed' - they die later, during the Indomitus Crusade. 'Simulacra' - Someone else wears their skin/panoply, or vice versa. 'Dead men walking' - They live on borrowed time. 'Worse than death' - Their rebirth is in fact a terrible curse. 'Nobody knows' - Even the warband itself is not sure what happened 'Time paradox' - They died, yet they live. Perhaps they died in the alternate timeline, or the unmaking of the reality at the birth of Cicatrix Maledictum somehow pulled them from their graves. 'Consign them to history' - keep them dead. I wanna thank you all for the absolute treasure trove of suggestions, they made this thread an excellent read. I chose two rough outlines, with the sprinkle of others. 1. Rebuilding/Consign them to history. (Maybe with Demise postponed for the new warband?) This is very tempting option for several reasons. I have sizeable force made of 'old marines', an unpainted Betrayal at Calth force and unassembled CSM apocalypse and christmas boxes. So there certaily is an option to have cross section of panel force from Heresy-era, pre-Maledictum, and post-Maledictum. Also - Crusade. That is beyond tempting. There is a drawback here. At the current stage of my life, my combo of laziness + kiss will mean it will probably take forever to get running. 2. Dead men walking/Worse than death, perhaps sprinkled with bits of You died at Droll Kheir/Nobody knows/Time paradox/Simulacra. I don't know why but I find this concept fascinating. It takes the tropes I don't really like and twists them into something very appealing. Also I could start with this right now. Also, I could freely mix and match models without too much hassle and I surely like kitbashing. Also, there is an tempting opportunity to make matters even worse for the warband, whereas the things would have to improve for them for a while in the first scenario. However, there is a lot of vagueness here. If I decide to go to see the first route, I see clear outline of the story (rebuilding the warband, reclaiming resources of former warband). If I take this route, I only know it appeals to me, but when I try to see the story, I see only the roughest outlines, nothing really specific. Overall I am torn. My head is telling me to go with first one, but my hearth is telling me to take the second. Sooo… Help me, please?

Wow. A lot of great ideas floating around. I really wish I was as creative as you guys. I particularly like the 'dead men walking' angle. Although starting a crusade force seems very tempting too... As some of the fellow fraters rightly pointed out, I didn't provide any context for the the warband or its demise. The reason for this was simple. I always envisioned is as a completely unremarkable event in the grand scheme of things. Just a warband becoming one of the many casaulties in encounters with the Imperials (or perhaps a rival warband). Now the warband itself is something like a 'penal batallion' of the Alpha Legion. It's an agglomererations of individuals who were sent there as a punisment, mixed with the remnants of destroyed warbands that nobody else would take in. (Yeah, it's an excuse so I can paint in a variety of different paint schemes and invent backgrounds for multiple warbands :D). I just... don't see them being noticed by one of the big names or gods - I don't have a Daemon Prince for the very same reason. So some of the proposed ideas, while being great, wouldn't fit with their 'bunch of nobodies, doing stuff beyond notice' vibe. However I hope some of the fraters don't mind if I steal some of the suggestions, and make them into one of the rumours that is circulating about them among the fellow warbands. After all, we cannot have an Alpha Legion warband returning from the dead without bunch of lies accompanying it. :) That being said, I am still far from being decided, so keep the suggestions going!

The idea of (in)glorious end for my warband is perhaps as old the warband itself. Basically, they would all die during the 13th Black Crusade. It was so compelling to make them one of the countless warbands annihilated in what surely was one of the most monumental wars that the Imperium ever faced. It was so thematic to tie their end to the end of the timeline... Well, right now that idea doesn't seem so great. Admittedly I should have faced this conundrum at the onset of 8th edition. But I postponed it, due to me (1) being too lazy to think about it, (2) feeling that I could keep my warband in the pre-13th black crusade eta. Now it seems less and less tenable. At first glance, the way out should be easy. The thing is, I really, really dislike 'ressurection' and 'warp did it' tropes. So what should I do? Postpone their inevitable end to some other future yet-to-be-defined event? Or is there some way to do ressurection/warp without it being too in the nose? TLDR: I Khayon'd my warband. How do I move into a new timeline, when I don't like 'ressurection'/'warp did it' tropes?

I think that disease that plagued Midgardia was made by Mortarion by the request of Magnus so it seems there is at least one instance of them working together.

Ok I am politely going to ask usual suspects to step out of the discussion. At this point, significant chunk of the posts are few users reinstating the same opinions over and over, and it is becoming repetive a frankly quite borig.

Not for all of us. I am stoked about VDR and missions. In fact me and my gaming group have yet to play a game using points.

I just want to reiterate that I don't think non-chaos renegade marines should have a codex. However I think there should be should be something for less "chaotic" marines in style of GS codex where you would be able to take loyalist stuff for every X units you have. Also I am not making the case CSM should be without chaos. I just think there is MUCH more to chaos marines than chaos. I pointed to some cases, but I will add despoiler squads to that pile (which dissapeared from the newest codex, IMO because of lack of suitable models).

That is very insightful post, thank you. It just confirms my belief that there should two codexes - first for fully fledged CSM and second for some kind of Genestealer-style codex for the "less chaotic CSM". I personally think that CMS should be both of the worlds - a bit of chaos and bit of (more loosely organized) Space Marines. I take (old) raptor models as a perfect example - their origin was throwback to the "old" days, with just the right amount of "chaosiness" mixed in. I would love the same thing being done for say jetbikes or landspeeders. What I personally find odd is that there seems to be constant movement of goalposts on where the differences between CSM and LSM are/should be. The Loyalist should be more rigidly organized and not so flexible as CSM. That was until the chapter tactics became a thing and suddenly loyalists have more variability. They are supposed to not to tinker with established STC patterns, while CSM should have no such restrains. But when the new variants of the Land Raider appeared, it is for loyalists, while CSM ride in a same old thing. The codex dictates loyalists are not supposed to have many flyers, while CSM are not restricted by it. That is until flyers became a thing, where loyalists get a whole load of them while CSM get one. Obliterators - centurions. Possessed - wulfen. 'nuff said. Loyalist should have newer stuff, while CSM are supposed to have older stuff, while l. Until the Horus Heresy started being a thing, and suddenly the loyalist get access to more HH stuff than CSM do. However I understand that this gripe of mine ultimately boils down to two things. Lack of updated models - I think this is most prominent and self-explanatory problem of "undivided" CSM. There are no hand-held multi-meltas, plasma cannons etc., because there are no chaos infantry sprues with them. Look no further than to out-of-the-blue meltabomb disappearance from the codex, to see that this has less to do with lore (i mean the CMS use meltabombs in Dark Imperum), design choices (I mean they had them since forever), and more with "well they don't have it on any of their kits..." The problem with this is of course that, there is no "undivided" CSM update on the horizon so I fear they will be stuck in this limbo for some time. Of course there is also tabletop representation - which is limited by need for balance, distinctive feel of faction and design of the game. For example, you can't have endless variability in CSM because you don't want to break the game, and want to have a certain feel of the entire faction; the characters are supposed to be in the thick of the fighting so this means no heavy weapon-toting heroes like Lheorvine; no "middlemen" between Lord and Aspiring Champions (though now the Exalted Champion fills that role) etc.

Its not so much skewed, as meant to be played with lot of terrain. I am not sure if it was stated by GW directly, but it was certainly stated by playtesters at FLG.