Mazryonh

That's one thing I would like to see FW address. Not only are most termies overcosted relative to their ingame utility, plasma is one of the things they are very vulnerable to. 2W would be a step towards making termies really good objective holders. The White Scars are out of their element during the Siege of Terra, specializing as they do in offensive actions over open terrain. Even their "Swift Action" rule reflects this, because it's useless when sitting behind a fortification or on a good firing position while using heavy weaponry. So the Scars are stuck being standard legion marines while defending a fixed locale, without the defensive advantages given to the Imperial Fists, or even the Iron Hands. Once the traitors made landfall on Terra, Hitting and Running would do nothing but buy less and less time before the main traitor force makes its way down. Furthermore, to Hit and Run, you need a safe place or direction to run to. In the mazelike streets and myriad cramped buildings of Old Terra, many of whose avenues and passageways were simply never built to accommodate people the size of Astartes (which in 30k are still a relatively recent invention) or bigger, which means that the Scars' options for maneuver warfare is severely restricted. This doesn't even take into account how, after the Unification of Terra, people who were freed from living in terrible conditions and from the constant warfare started building and repairing everything they could on the planet until it became a planet-spanning city again, much of which will be wrecked during the Siege, greatly delaying any loyalist retreat. Horus' objective is a fixed location, all the legions who listen to his orders have their guns largely fixed in the direction of the Palace, and if the defenders tried to hit and run from flanking directions they'd leave the walls unmanned at worst, or only distract the traitors momentarily at best. That's because the White Scars don't have the manpower, or battlefield control, or orbital/aerial superiority to carry out their tactical specialty. If they tried to run away over a clear area (hard to find in the Siege) after hitting hard, they still have to deal with traitor airpower or orbital fire, or even just daemons summoned by Lorgar's forces who can turn up almost anywhere chasing them down or getting in their way. As for the Keshig, I'd argue that eventually the White Scars got into enough close-quarters situations where Hitting and Running wasn't useful that some members got good enough at it, and were put into Cataphractii armour (the best standard equipment for this kind of situation). All that's assuming the Khan's not incompetent, which I hope he will be portrayed as even while being forced into conditions he'd likely find claustrophobia-inducing. Technically I'd like to see the Emperor send out the Scars away from the Palace walls (which is not where they'll be most effective) to try and rescue any loyalist human forces outside the Palace's walls and bring them inside to play their part. One of the greatest atrocities of the Siege of Terra was when some of the traitor legions got bored and started ravaging the planet's civilian population. Successfully rescuing and then press-ganging those people into the Emperor's service would require a lot of swift action, indeed.

Why not 2W for Phoenix Terminators? It would make them a little more competitive at least, given that they can hit hard on the charge but don't have much staying power beyond that of vanilla termies once they get stuck in. Still, even with a 2W buff, Phoenixes are one of the least versatile unique terminators in 30k until their rules get updated, because they can't handle vehicles, or multi-wound/high-toughness infantry, and have no ranged weapons at all. Because some 30k fans like to play out scenarios based on the HH novels, to start. Also, no one says it has to be the original Archamus. The end of Praetorian of Dorn tells us that "Archamus" is strongly hinted to become an honourary title name for whomever takes the position of first among Huscarls in the future. I'd like to think that Archamus and the Huscarls were originally intended to have some unique tricks and equipment up their sleeves in the story, but perhaps the HH model staff told the author "Cut back a bit! Gav Thorpe mentioned enough stuff for the Dark Angels' Dreadwing in Angels of Caliban that could fill an entire army's model range! Don't overload us by hyping up models we haven't designed yet that the fans will beg us for!" or something to that effect. I'd settle for the Huscarls always having the "Resolve of Stone" and "Shield Charge" rules in effect on their unit no matter the RoW chosen, maybe even the option to take master-crafted Solarite Power Gauntlets for all of them. That, at least, would be relatively easy for FW to make. They love making Rhino doors and Rhino/Predator Extra Armour for any Space Marine faction they support. Adding "attachment points" on the side armour or improved front armour piece so Rhinos can move together on the tabletop with more staying power than unmodified Rhinos shouldn't be too hard for FW either. If FW made a reference to the original Space Hulk boardgame (which featured Blood Angels Terminators) for Terminator-armoured Sanguinary Guard, as in "they learned to don and fight effectively in Terminator Armour when clearing Human Rebels and Xenos from derelict or drifting void ships," it'd be a nice nod to old-school 40k since the first appearance of Terminator Armour in any official 40k product ever was in Space Hulk. As for unique equipment, letting Sanguinary Guard Terminators take lesser versions of their Photonic Relic Blades, or even the ability to take Assault 2 Inferno Pistols instead of Combi-Bolters mgiht also work. The Dark Angels' six Wings already existed in 30k, including the Ravenwing and Deathwing, the only two which are still known to be in use for 40k. As for why the White Scars should get 2W terminators, it's because every Legion may have its own unique strengths, but each needed to be self-sufficient in its strategic and tactical capabilities, and had a standardized selection of infantry and vehicle types planned out by the Emperor before the return of the Primarchs, including an elite terminator unit. That's why the White Scars are still capable of armoured warfare with tanks despite not specializing in it. Also, there are plenty of tactical situations where hitting and running isn't possible or desirable, such as the cityfighting and defensive siege actions in the Siege of Terra, or voidship boarding actions. Elite Cataphractii Terminators would be the hardiest non-unique infantry a Space Marine Legion could field in that situation. Having said that, giving the White Scars Keshig (their unique terminator units) the ability to Hit and Run would be a good start. I've already said that Tyrants should have had a horrendously long record of offensive siege battles, likely involved being bowled over multiple times by heavy weaponry and just getting back up again to continue an advance, so their resilience gained from experience should be reflected in more than just their equipment. Giving their Sergeant more wounds would at least give us some breathing room against attempts to snipe him and deprive his unit of his useful omniscope. Gorgons only have a vanilla-termie-level invulnerable save (not the best to have around once the enemy starts shooting lots of AP2 weapons at them), which is what led me to believe that the Morlocks were originally intended to be based on Cataphractii Termies (Gorgons last I checked can't even do Sweeping Advances). Stronger Grav Guns that Get Hot might also be a balanced unique weapon for Morlocks too. I think it was just a fluff justification for their 2W. Here, try this version instead: "Sekhmet must roll for their powers normally, but if you aren't satisfied you may forgo the rolled powers for just the Endurance psychic power instead." So like the theme for the Thousand Sons, the preternatural endurance of Sekmets wouldn't come from their gene-seed but from a magical buff. And a Praetor in Terminator Armour 4 wounds?What about Primarchs or other special charakters? How about another way of skinning this cat? Basic Vanilla or CC Terminators get 2 wounds, unique Terminators stay at 2 but their Sergeants get 3, but losing an entire unit of Unique Terminators nets the opponent one more VP, to represent how rare these elite-of-the-elite infantry are.

Not to disparage the late great Alan Bligh, but for Morlocks, Ferrus Manus' terminator bodyguard, to be stuck wearing only Gorgon suits seems a bit of a letdown to me. The Morlocks are supposed to be the very best of his legion, but they don't get the privilege of unique gear and abilities. Ferrus Manus always struck me as someone who would storm off to his workshop (after chewing out his troops) after a less-than-satisfactory battle and build better stuff for his men. Every legion was originally raised from Terra, and then eventually supplied with vehicles and war materiel from Mars. To make logistics and strategic organization easier prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs, it was clear that the Emperor had standardized the original legions to a large degree. This makes it likely that establishing and maintaining an Elite Terminator bodyguard unit was the standard throughout the legions before the Primarchs returned, even if certain Primarchs de-emphasized that unit later. For the World Eaters, the Devourers likely still had their own martial pride and history of service with their legion and would persist in their own martial endeavours, even if their broken Primarch wanted nothing to do with them. In game, this might mean that they can't accompany Angron but may accompany any non-unique WE character, but would have more tactical options open to them rather than just bumrushing everything they see like Khârn and the Red Butchers. For the Blood Angels, even they had a pragmatic side. Weren't they the first Legion-descended chapter to use Terminator armour in the original Space Hulk boardgame? For reasons I've outlined above, the Terran-raised Blood Angels likely had their own elite terminators, and I doubt that Sanguinius would have disbanded them. It's likelier he simply deployed them when the situation called for it, such as cityfighting or close-quarters battle like in, well, Space Hulks and similar environments. For the Raven Guard, I'm looking forward to the Deliverers too. Giving them access to teleportation transponders no matter the RoW being used sounds like the minimum they would need. Hit and Run would also be nice. There's plenty of ways they can fit the Raven Guard's theme even without access to Jump Packs or stealth abilities (such as the Alpha Legion's own Terminators). The Word Bearers apparent overreliance on the Gal Vorbak (which as I outlined earlier, were both irreplaceable and irreplicable) isn't very logical. It's likely they had an Elite Terminator unit as per legion standardization before the Gal Vorbak ever arrived on the scene, and they could replace members of that unit unlike the Gal Vorbak. I'd like a unique weapon option for those elite termies too, maybe something like proto-daemon weapons or a unique table to roll on for Dark Channeling. Thanks for the reminder. If FW ever makes Huscarl models we need rules for a squad leader model based on Archamus from the Praetorian of Dorn novel. Sounds like you're thinking the Gorgons should eventually get access to the Keys of Hel. Could be the whole basis for a "last ditch" RoW for the Iron Hands, if FW are going to let them go that far. I hope Malevolence does at least give vanilla termies 2Ws to start or 3W for Elite Terminators while providing a minor cost reduction for the former.

It would be a nice nod to 8th edition if all HH Terminators in general got at least two wounds. They are, to a man, supposed to be a Veteran's Veteran, which makes for some strange disconnects in the fluff/mechanics: Tyrant Siege Terminators are guys who have been through more meatgrinder battles than most other legions' soldiers would ever dream of being in. These are guys who are supposed to have been bowled over by artillery shells and found it within themselves to stand back up and keep advancing forward before they earned the right to wear Terminator armour, but the Tyrants still have only one wound in the rules. Phoenix Guard Terminators, who are horrendously one-dimensional and don't have much utility beyond infantry-killing on the charge and their "cheerleading" ability. A few other Legion-specific terminators have the ability to take Meltabombs, but not the Phoenix Guard, who despite their name don't even have the ability to get back up after taking a wound (maybe changing their stats to have two wounds and meltabombs would work). I would agree with giving Lernaens and Varagyr Terminators two wounds each. The Lernaens already have access to AL-specific advantages such as the ability to take Conversion Beamers and Power Daggers, and of course the ability to use the AL's Mutable Tactics to make them stand out amongst the legion-specific Terminators, but 2W would suit their Elite-of-The-Elite status better. Certain regular terminators in the HH era actually have some nice tricks up their sleeves, such as the Imperial Fists' regular Terminators having access to equipment like Storm Shields and Assault Cannons that most other Legions' Terminators can't have. The Alpha Legion's and Thousand Sons' regular Terminators can even bring specialty ammo for their Combi-Bolters that can substantially increase their MEQ killing power too. But otherwise, you're right; vanilla terminators in the HH can sometimes struggle to make back their points. FW has rebalanced unique terminators before, so there's a chance of Varagyr being made more viable. The SoH's unique Justaerin Terminators used to be severely overcosted and had a starting squad size of only three models. Then they got a price reduction and the ability to take up to a maximum of 12 models in a squad (though I think that's a typo, since the original squad model count maxed out at 10 from taking 7 additional models, and the revised version makes the minimum squad size 5 models while not changing the maximum number of additional models you can take). So aside from the aforementioned Deathwing, Keshig, and Atramentar, what other legion-specific Terminators are we missing models and/or rules for? I can think of these off the top of my head: Devourers (World Eaters): We already have the Red Butchers that have 2W, but I think the Devourers would be a nice, saner variant with better access to more varied weaponry. Morlocks (Iron Hands): The Gorgon Terminators are nice, but we still don't have rules for the Morlocks who were Ferrus Manus' Honour Guard. I'm thinking they were the result of his attempts to optimize Cataphractii armour (whereas the Gorgon Terminators wear customized Indomitus armour). Blood Angels Unique Terminators: There's few things the Blood Angels love so much as attacking while wearing Jump Packs, which Terminators can't use, but even they must have seen the usefulness of an Elite Terminator unit of their own. Imperial Fists Unique Terminators: We already have the Templar Brethren, but I'm looking for a Terminator unit that might be led around by a Terminator-armoured Sigismund or Alexis Polux that could have 2W as well. Raven Guard Unique Terminators: The AL have proven that infiltrating Terminators is in fact possible. Maybe the Raven Guard could also do something similar with their own unique loadout. Word Bearers Unique Terminators: The Gal Vorbak (the units currently fulfilling the role of "legion-specific 2W elite infantry unit") were at best a happy accident in the fluff and could not be replenished once lost (look at how 40k's Possessed Marines don't match up to the Gal Vorbak's abilities). The WBs should at least have had legion-specific Terminators of their own as well, like many of the other legions did during the Great Crusade, before the Gal Vorbak arose.

Not only are the unique models for units like the Death Guard's Deathshroud, the Sons of Horus' Justaerin, and the World Eaters' Red Butchers nice to look at and fun to use ingame, they're also 2W unique terminators for their parent legions. The thing is, we still have yet to see rules or models for units that could fit this archetype for some of the other legions, such as the Dark Angels' Deathwing, the White Scars' Keshig, and the Night Lords' Atramentar Terminators. Has anyone been able to ask the FW team about this? The fact that we can run entire units of these guys in certain 30k lists while still remaining Battle-Forged looks like one of the unique parts of 30k to me.

I hope that the Dark Angels' versatility is adequately reflected in the 30k game. I made a thread previously about whether or not the pattern of "Each -wing of the first legion merits its own Rite of War" would be followed for all six -wings, but unless the Angelus book confirms this pattern there's no guarantee it will have one. My guess is that the Firewing is the psyker/anti-psyker division of the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels had to be able to cover all their bases as the First Legion, and given the diversity of foes faced during the Great Crusade, it's almost certain that they had to face and adapt to foes using psyker abilities before dedicated psyker/anti-psyker forces (like the Sisters of Silence and the Thousand Sons) were formed during the GC. Besides, psyker abilities give access to unique advantages (such as Divination) accessible in no other way. Can't we also deduce some of the legions' "tactical holes" by referring to the ingame rules? The Blood Angels and Raven Guard both have restrictions on the number of tanks they can field, so we can safely say that they didn't emphasize armoured warfare as much as the other legions did. Similarly, the Iron Hands are restricted in the number of Fast Attack choices or unit types they can use, so clearly Ferrus wasn't someone for raiding or rapidly exploiting breakthroughs. Or how the White Scars will be stuck operating at suboptimal capacity during the Siege of Terra since they are at their deadliest when moving above a certain speed, which they will rarely get to do so in the street-to-street fighting of Holy Terra. Sometimes the holes get revealed in fluff, too, such as with the Raven Guard at the Battle of Gate 42 where they were ordered by Horus to conduct an offensive siege action and suffered heavy losses because they didn't have the tanks, the manpower, or artillery support suited to taking fortifications out in the open that other legions like the Iron Warriors did. Can we also say that the Alpha Legion was also an all-rounder legion? Their Mutable Tactics is uniquely versatile. I'd still like to see how Legions like the Dark Angels or Alpha Legion faced down hordes of angry World Eaters or other rampaging melee forces. At least the Alpha Legion have access to Counter Attack, but even that's not much more than a speedbump for an Alpha Legion tactical squad up against a Nob squad or enough World Eaters.

This looks pretty cool, like they're on their last steps on the path to becoming full-on Khorne Berserkers.

More thoughts (gives away a bit on the story itself, so be warned): There must be few things a non-Terran-born White Scar hates hearing more than: "There is nowhere left to run, brother." The bit you describe kind of makes you wonder how the Terran-born White Scars dealt with that kind of warfare during the struggle to unify Terra, though. It's not like Terra was any less of a majorly-overcrowded planet-spanning city back then.

Artificer armour wouldn't protect much against Phosphex bombs. In rules terms it requires a reliable invulnerable save (or preternatural constitution like that of the Death Guard's infantry) to keep infantry "relatively" safe from Phosphex. And aren't Destroyers supposed to be walking symbols of the menace represented by Old Night on Terra? You're not wrong. It's just that there are other thematically-appropriate weapons like Irrad Cleansers and Radiation Furnaces that are already in the 30k game, they're just in the hands of factions other than the Legions that use Destroyers. I think something like that is considered a Relic-level ability by FW. The Barbaran Thurible Relic exclusive to the Death Guard does that already, and that's an "opponent's consent only" item. I think there is one crucial difference between Grave Wardens and Destroyers. To my knowledge, the Destroyers are, in almost every legion that uses them, essentially a penal unit where legionnaires who have proven themselves too useful to execute outright get "sentenced," where they eventually die a slow death from overexposure to normally-proscribed weaponry. The Grave Wardens are as heavily protected as they are because they're considered a valuable asset, and thanks to their equipment (especially their Cataphractii armour and "Death Cloud" gas projectors) they're quite effective against most targets they can reach while still being very tough. On the other hand, Destroyers are by and large considered expendable, a unit most commanders wouldn't miss if they died to something as ignominious as a Phosphex bomb mishap, or if they got gunned down by Heavy Bolters they couldn't reach in time (kind of like being stuck in the open against a heavy machine gun with just two pistols in your hands in real life). That at least is a thematically-appropriate reason for why the Destroyers don't currently have the options to get better armour. Remember that the Destroyer Corps is where Crysos Morturg of the Death Guard, a psyker in a legion whose Primarch hated them, got reassigned to, despite eventually proving himself by surviving against all odds in the Battle of Istvaan III. The major exception to the "Destroyers are expendable" philosophy of use is likely the Dark Angels' Dreadwing force, where they are considered a necessary evil that, if you really need to deploy them, you equip appropriately to let them fight like you want them to win. That's likely why the Dreadwing is described in the HH novels as having access to such goodies like Whirlwind tanks with radiation-spreading warheads that we haven't seen on the tabletop yet. Still, "Devastators on steroids" would be a good way to deploy Destroyers with no jump packs. Devastator-Destroyers carrying more varied radiation weaponry (like Irrad Cleansers rather than just being restricted to Rad Missiles), access to Chem-munitions-using Heavy Flamers (currently exclusive to the Death Guard) or even Heavy Bolters with Molecular Acid Shells (currently exclusive to the Dark Angels) would be extremely effective. I'm curious as to how Blood Angels Destroyers will be represented in the fluff, and whether they will receive any unique tabletop rules. Every Blood Angel from Baal hails from a place that was forever ruined by unrestricted NBC warfare, and each one of them almost certainly knows someone close to them who died of radiation-induced cancer or other aftereffect of those weapons. Logically that would mean Blood Angels would be very reluctant to deploy Destroyers, at least against humans who might still be persuaded to serve the Emperor.

Most of the time I'd rather get Phosphex canister rounds rather than Phosphex bombs (both are Poisoned and are very likely to wound). Phosphex bombs, compared to Phosphex artillery, are single-use and can only be thrown a very short distance. Also, unless you're playing Death Guard, Destroyers have no special immunity to Phosphex and are just as susceptible to it as most infantry targets (watch out for the Crawling Fire and Dangerous Terrain!). If Phosphex bombs are to be useful in Destroyer squads' hands, it might be interesting if there was a rule where Destroyers could trigger a Phosphex bomb as a suicide weapon, if they pass an Initiative or LD test as soon as they got wiped out by a hostile Sweeping Advance move, making them useful as "we're dead anyway, so let's take as many of the enemy as we can" anti-melee units. The fact remains that with regards to ranged firepower, Destroyers are still outclassed and very short-ranged, and other units can take more Rad missiles than Destroyers can. I feel you. They're nice models but are lacking in the rules department. I'm sure there are plenty of Dark Angels fans who want to built their very own Destroyer-centric Dreadwing force. Nope. They were few in number, because often the TSons could just use their deadliest psykers instead. Sounds like a missed opportunity to me. Psychic Destroyers might be able to do some very nasty things.

So the key is to keep your investment small with regards to the "Signs and Portents" rule? Have you had any luck getting the positive bonus on a big unit, like a large command squad?

Has anyone here had any luck with using the "Signs and Portents" rule from the "Dark Brethren" RoW available to the Word Bearers? The fact that you get an equal chance of a blessing or a curse sounds awfully dicey (pun totally intended).

Unless your name is Kaedes Nex, Bolt Pistols are unimpressive in 30k with all the MEQs or better running around, and most other pistol types don't cut it either (especially not hand flamers if you're not playing Death Guard and thus give them Chem ammo). But at least I agree with your dropping their points costs and Jump Pack upgrade cost to bring them inline with the new cheapened Assault Squads. The problem is still that vanilla Destroyers have too little teeth as they stand now, especially since Techmarines can bring more Rad Missiles in a squad and Phosphex artillery is more effective than the Phosphex bombs available to Destroyers. We're still waiting on the rules to match the Destroyer's fluff. Were they psychic?

The fact remains that FW still hasn't done much to make Destroyers worthwhile on the tabletop. If they wanted to sell more, wouldn't it be easy to just to give Destroyers better rules?

I think that would be elbowing in on the Nanite Blaster's niche. But it would at least explain how Phosphex seems to seek out movement, because you can program Nanites to do so, but to my knowledge you can't "program" chemicals to do the same. Anyway, I don't know if "Phosphex only goes out in hard vacuum" is still canon, but if it is, then it seems a bit nearsighted to me. We've known ever since the Space Age that there are plenty of hypergolic chemical combinations that burn just fine in hard vacuum, because they carry their own oxidizer and don't need oxygen to burn. Phosphex seems a bit strange that way and wouldn't be nearly as deadly in Zone Mortalis scenarios (like starship-boarding actions) as it might be, if burning Phosphex could be extinguished just by venting the affected area's atmosphere into space. Sadly I think Destroyers are underpowered in the HH meta. Yes, it's nice to hear about how each legion put their own spin on them in the fluff, but what practical consequence is that in the real world if there's no real incentive for players to buy and use the Destroyer models? I would very much like to see unique models of Destroyers for each legion with their own perks, such as: Blood Angels Destroyers bringing "The Curse of Baal" (a planet long rendered a radioactive wasteland by unrestricted NBC warfare) to their enemies, maybe even with biological weapons that make enemies bleed massively through their skin without visible wounds, like real-life hemorrhagic fevers do. Death Guard Destroyers using Biophage weapons, a prelude to their fall to Nurgle. An entire Dreadwing Protocol for the Dark Angels, who were the first experts in Destroyer-centric warfare. Alpha Legion Destroyers using a mass-cultivated version of their Drakaina biological warfare pistols. Thousand Sons Destroyers who are psychically unstable and are prone to becoming Chaos Spawn (or worse) in the middle of battle to tear apart enemies. Above all I would like to see ingame Destroyers be given gear to match their rightly-feared status in the fluff. The description given to the Destroyer-centric Dreadwing in the HH novel Angels of Caliban shows just how much HH players are missing out on with their own Destroyers. We don't even have to go very far for a good start; just giving Destroyers access to some of the Mechanicum's Irrad weapons could be both a simple and fluffy copy-and-paste job.