The Chaos Lord's Handbook

[Roultox]

That may be alright seeing as multiple angles of view give a 3Dimentional perspective of the codex rather then one guy posting his worth.

[Allerka]

Legio Intel File - World Eaters is finally posted and available for reading.

[Brother Nihm]

Excellent, added to the Primer. :D

[Brother Nihm]

Question,

Is there anyone who'd be willing to Math-hammer up the following:

 

Chaos Lord melee performance vs MEQ, including the various marks and weapon upgrades. (like Ironwinds did a long long time ago, only for the new Codex this time)

 

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs MEQ, compared to basic CSMs

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs GEQ, compared to basic CSMs

 

Average Chaos Spawn movement (searchy is bugged for moderators at the moment so I can't find the old topic :jaw:)

 

RAC's chance to glance vs various armour values, compared to lascannons, missile launchers, multi meltas etc.

CSM wielded Plasma weapons gets hot chances both with and without rapid fire, compared to Death guard marines using the same.

 

 

?

 

(feel free to add more ideas)

[Vanger]

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs MEQ, compared to basic CSMs

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs GEQ, compared to basic CSMs

 

I don't want to be rude, but in the new codex the two are the same as Daemons and basic CSM get the same amount of attacks :rolleyes: They differ only when the return attacks are struck. Or if we factor in the bolt pistol shots fired by the CSM before the assault.

 

Ps. Idea for math-hammer:

 

Rapid fire vs. Bolt Pistol+charge against MEq and GEq for basic CSM

[Brother Nihm]

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs MEQ, compared to basic CSMs

Lesser Daemon melee performance vs GEQ, compared to basic CSMs

 

I don't want to be rude, but in the new codex the two are the same as Daemons and basic CSM get the same amount of attacks :tu: They differ only when the return attacks are struck. Or if we factor in the bolt pistol shots fired by the CSM before the assault.

 

Ps. Idea for math-hammer:

 

Rapid fire vs. Bolt Pistol+charge against MEq and GEq for basic CSM

However their save is different, and they are fearless, therein lies the interesting part in my opinion. One could do interesting morale calculations vs various sized enemy units as well.

If you and others find it superfluous I'll forget all about it though. :rolleyes:

 

PS. Excellent idea with the rapid-fire vs bolt pistols!

[Brother Nihm]

Added a few renegade painter images and extra background info.

 

Feel free to help by grabbing a task and get cracking. :turned:

[feelnopain666]

If you need some fluff just contact me. I have a vast library of 40K novels. I'll be more than happy to tell the stories that some s..t-heads have forgotten just to have a more simplified codex and more profit (yes I'm talking to YOU, Gav!!!) :down:

[Vanger]

Here comes the Mathhammer!

 

Against GEq targets with lower weapon skill:

 

Rapid fire vs. Sv 6+ 0.89 - Shoot and charge vs. 6+ 0.44 + 1.11 = 1.56

Rapid fire vs. Sv 5+ 0.89 - Shoot and charge vs. 5+ 0.44 + 0.89 = 1.33

Rapid fire vs. Sv 4+ 0.44 - Shoot and charge vs. 4+ 0.22 + 0.67 = 0.89

Rapid fire vs. Sv 3+ 0.30 - Shoot and charge vs. 3+ 0.15 + 0.44 = 0.59

Rapid fire vs. Sv 2+ 0.15 - Shoot and charge vs. 2+ 0.07 + 0.22 = 0.30

 

Against GEq targets with equal or higher weapon skill:

 

Rapid fire vs. Sv 6+ 0.89 - Shoot and charge vs. 6+ 0.44 + 0.83 = 1.28

Rapid fire vs. Sv 5+ 0.89 - Shoot and charge vs. 5+ 0.44 + 0.67 = 1.11

Rapid fire vs. Sv 4+ 0.44 - Shoot and charge vs. 4+ 0.22 + 0.50 = 0.72

Rapid fire vs. Sv 3+ 0.30 - Shoot and charge vs. 3+ 0.15 + 0.33 = 0.48

Rapid fire vs. Sv 2+ 0.15 - Shoot and charge vs. 2+ 0.07 + 0.17 = 0.24

 

Against MEq targets with lower weapon skill:

 

Rapid fire vs. Sv 6+ 0.67 - Shoot and charge vs. 6+ 0.33 + 0.83 = 1.17

Rapid fire vs. Sv 5+ 0.67 - Shoot and charge vs. 5+ 0.33 + 0.67 = 1.00

Rapid fire vs. Sv 4+ 0.33 - Shoot and charge vs. 4+ 0.17 + 0.50 = 0.67

Rapid fire vs. Sv 3+ 0.22 - Shoot and charge vs. 3+ 0.11 + 0.33 = 0.44

Rapid fire vs. Sv 2+ 0.11 - Shoot and charge vs. 2+ 0.06 + 0.17 = 0.22

 

Against MEq targets with equal or higher weapon skill:

 

Rapid fire vs. Sv 6+ 0.67 - Shoot and charge vs. 6+ 0.33 + 0.63 = 0.96

Rapid fire vs. Sv 5+ 0.67 - Shoot and charge vs. 5+ 0.33 + 0.50 = 0.83

Rapid fire vs. Sv 4+ 0.33 - Shoot and charge vs. 4+ 0.17 + 0.38 = 0.54

Rapid fire vs. Sv 3+ 0.22 - Shoot and charge vs. 3+ 0.11 + 0.25 = 0.36

Rapid fire vs. Sv 2+ 0.11 - Shoot and charge vs. 2+ 0.06 + 0.13 = 0.18

 

First column is Rapid Fire (who would have tought? :teehee:) second column is shooting first then CC added and then the sum of the two.

 

I can't think of a GEq or MEq target which CSMs would only hit on a 5+ in CC so that I did not work out. I hope the format suits you. If I made mistakes in the calculations, please correct me!

 

And if anyone could give me ideas how to work out Lesser daemon performance in CC vs. CSM performance :S (Genestealers/Harlies stirking first? Or what?)

[Vanger]

Another numbercrunch B)

 

This time Chaos Lord /w various weapons:

 

Chaos Lord /w Undivided Daemon weapon:

 

# of attacks 5 vs. MEq 2.22 vs. GEq 2.78

# of attacks 6 vs. MEq 2.67 vs. GEq 3.33

# of attacks 7 vs. MEq 3.11 vs. GEq 3.89

# of attacks 8 vs. MEq 3.56 vs. GEq 4.44

# of attacks 9 vs. MEq 4.00 vs. GEq 5.00

 

Chaos Lord /w Slaanesh/Nurgle/Tzeentch Daemon weapon:

 

# of attacks 5 vs. MEq 1.67 vs. GEq 2.22

# of attacks 6 vs. MEq 2.00 vs. GEq 2.67

# of attacks 7 vs. MEq 2.33 vs. GEq 3.11

# of attacks 8 vs. MEq 2.67 vs. GEq 3.56

# of attacks 9 vs. MEq 3.00 vs. GEq 4.00

# of attacks 10 vs. MEq 3.33 vs. GEq 4.44

 

Chaos Lord /w Khorne Daemon weapon:

 

# of attacks 09 vs. MEq 3.00 vs. GEq 4.00

# of attacks 10 vs. MEq 3.33 vs. GEq 4.44

# of attacks 11 vs. MEq 3.67 vs. GEq 4.89

# of attacks 12 vs. MEq 4.00 vs. GEq 5.33

# of attacks 13 vs. MEq 4.33 vs. GEq 5.78

# of attacks 14 vs. MEq 4.67 vs. GEq 6.22

# of attacks 15 vs. MEq 5.00 vs. GEq 6.67

# of attacks 16 vs. MEq 5.33 vs. GEq 7.11

# of attacks 17 vs. MEq 5.67 vs. GEq 7.56

 

Chaos Lord /w twin Lightning Claws:

 

# of attacks 5 vs. MEq 2.50 vs. GEq 2.93

 

Chaos Lord /w Mark of Khorne and twin Lightning Claws (or /w other Marks on Steed):

 

# of attacks 6 vs. MEq 3.00 vs. GEq 3.52

 

Chaos Lord /w Power Weapon

 

# of attacks 4 vs. MEq 1.33 vs. GEq 1.78

# of attacks 5 vs. MEq 1.67 vs. GEq 2.22

# of attacks 6 vs. MEq 2.00 vs. GEq 2.67

 

In all cases I assumed that the Lord hits on a 3+ in CC as this is the case with WS6 ('stealers and harlieas are a different kind of animal :))

 

Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne and Juggernaut is another matter, because that frickin beast gives +1S and +1A :teehee:

[Vanger]

So Chaos Lord on Juggernaut

 

With Power Weapon:

 

# of attacks 7 vs. MEq 3.11 vs. GEq 3.89

 

With twin Lightning Claws:

 

# of attacks 7 vs. MEq 4.11 vs. GEq 4.53

 

With Daemon weapon:

 

# of attacks 10 vs. MEq 4.44 vs. GEq 5.56

# of attacks 11 vs. MEq 4.89 vs. GEq 6.11

# of attacks 12 vs. MEq 5.33 vs. GEq 6.67

# of attacks 13 vs. MEq 5.78 vs. GEq 7.22

# of attacks 14 vs. MEq 6.22 vs. GEq 7.78

# of attacks 15 vs. MEq 6.67 vs. GEq 8.33

# of attacks 16 vs. MEq 7.11 vs. GEq 8.89

# of attacks 17 vs. MEq 7.56 vs. GEq 9.44

# of attacks 18 vs. MEq 8.00 vs. GEq 10.00

 

So, stay tuned, next one is Sorcerer using Warp Time!

[Vanger]

Sorcerer with Force Weapon using Warp Time assuming he hits on a 3+ in CC:

 

# of attacks 5 wounding on 3+ 3.87 4+ 3.30 5+ 2.42 6+ 0.88

# of attacks 6 wounding on 3+ 4.65 4+ 3.96 5+ 2.48 6+ 1.06

 

Sorcerer with Force Weapon using Warp Time assuming he hits on a 4+ in CC:

 

# of attacks 5 wounding on 3+ 3.30 4+ 2.81 5+ 2.06 6+ 0.75

# of attacks 6 wounding on 3+ 3.96 4+ 3.38 5+ 2.48 6+ 0.90

 

 

I'm bored at work, can you guess? :) But my shift ends for today :)

[The WarpGhost]

Forgive me for being retarded, things have changed since I was last on the board, but how do you access the CSM version of the marine painter? I cant for the life of me find a link and the search function has decided to fail completely and refuses to work.

[Brother Nihm]

Forgive me for being retarded, things have changed since I was last on the board, but how do you access the CSM version of the marine painter? I cant for the life of me find a link and the search function has decided to fail completely and refuses to work.

link, stickied at the top.

[The WarpGhost]

Soul Drinkers

 

Apostles of MinthRas

[Muskie]

Oi I finished my Hakanor's Reavers painting tutorial, but you never did tell me what to do with it. I sent you an email about it yesterday...

 

Do I start a thread in the tutorial section or what? Where do I stick the images, I took a lot of photos...

[Brother Nihm]

Oi I finished my Hakanor's Reavers painting tutorial, but you never did tell me what to do with it. I sent you an email about it yesterday...

 

Do I start a thread in the tutorial section or what? Where do I stick the images, I took a lot of photos...

I did send you a reply to your PM.

Must have gotten lost in the Warp. :)

 

Anyways -> PM!

[kha'delath]

DO DIY Chapters go here too, or just GW creations?

[Muskie]

The officially mentioned chapters/legions are being done, well there is hope they will all be done eventually.

 

There is a section in the primer on creating your own Chapter but that is the extent to which DIY stuff will be represented I believe.

[Brother Nihm]

DO DIY Chapters go here too, or just GW creations?

 

 

The officially mentioned chapters/legions are being done, well there is hope they will all be done eventually.

 

There is a section in the primer on creating your own Chapter but that is the extent to which DIY stuff will be represented I believe.

Muskie is correct, DYI's are so exclusive that I feel that apart from the brief how-to (which is included in the Primer) they belong in the Liber Astartes.

[Brother Nihm]

Many thanks Warpghost!

Added those to the primer

 

I also made some layout changes to make it more user friendly.

 

 

The todo list:

 

MISC:

Index - will be done at the end.

 

 

BACKGROUND INFO:

Welcome back to Chaos, here's what has changed - malisteen.

Intel File - Thousand Sons - any takers?

Suggestions on fielding renegades, themed army lists - any takers?

Red Corsair Intel File - Nihm.

Defeating army X/Y - advice on how to beat e.g. Dark Eldar etc. What works, what doesn't. - Any takers?

Playing the Legions using the latest Codex - Nihm.

Literature list for both Renegades and the Legions - Nihm.

WD Chaos index (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=69)

 

Renegade colour scheme checklist:

Angels of Ecstasy

*Apostles of Minthras

Bleak Brotherhood

Brotherhood of Darkness

*Children of Purgatos

Claws of Lorek

Company of Misery

*Deathmongers

Deathshadows

Disciples of Destruction

*Dragon Warriors

*Extinction Angels

Hakanor's Reavers

Knights of Blood

Lords of Decay

Night Stalkers

Oracles of Change

Punishers

*Red Corsairs

*Skulltakers

Skyrar's Dark Wolves

*Sons of Malice

Sons of Vengeance

*Soul Drinkers

*Steel Brethren

*Swords of Khargoth

*The Cleaved

The Flawless Host

*The Purge

*The Pyre

The Reborn

*The Sanctified

Violators

*Warriors of Mayhem

 

*= done

 

 

MATHHAMMER:

Daemonweapons - any takers?

Lesser daemons vs Raptors and CSM, performance analysis - any takers?

 

 

PAINTING:

Painting horns - Nihm

Painting BL - Midian.

Painting NL - Nihm (done, I just need to take pictures)

Painting AL (new and old) - any takers?

Painting WB - TheDarkApostle.

Painting IW - Maximillian.

Painting Hakanor's Reavers - Muskie.

Painting and modelling Death Guard - Terminator Tomatron.

Painting and modelling Red Corsairs - Reaper31.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Questions, comments, constructive spawncakes etc. PM them to me or post them in this thread.

Also, feel free to pitch in, there's alot of ground to be covered!

[The WarpGhost]

Suggestions on fielding renegades, themed army lists - any takers?

I'll take it. :cry:

 

Also:

 

Violators (making some assumptions with the eye colour)

 

Death Shadows (yes it really is dark brown and navy, which are in fact the best colours for use at night because black is actually too dark!)

[Roultox]

I would like to add on the math-hammer part.

 

What type of math you looking for nihm? (I'll give my offer as a base, someone else can finish it properly)

 

If its dice maths, best I can offer for Daemon Weapons is a pure result chart.

Khorne DW = 11/36 chance to fail, average +7 attacks per turn when successful.

Other DW's = 1/6 chance to fail, average +3/4 attacks per turn when successful.

 

Chart of Str vs Toughness Calculated on hitting on 3+

Strength / Toughness / % Chance to wound per attack

5 / 7or8 / .11

5 / 6 / .22

5 / 5 / .33

5 / 4 / .44

5 / 3 / .55

4 / 6or7 / .11

4 / 5 / .22

4 / 4 / .33

4 / 3 / .44

 

Tzeentch Shooting chances to hit: 8.333333333333335 (.55 T3) (.41 T4) (.27 T5) (.13 T6/7)

 

Daemon Weapons Durances, no charge bonus added for %min. Toughness/(Alt Toughness)= %min to %max.

Undivided: T3= 2.75 to 5.5, T4= 2.2 to 4.4, T5= 1.65 to 3.3, T6= 1.1 to 2.2, T7/8= .55 to 1.1

Slaanesh: T3= 2.2 to 4.4, T4= 1.65 to 3.3, T5= 1.1 to 2.2, T6/7= .55 to 1.1

Nurgle: T3= 2.2 to 4.4, T4/5/6/7/8/9/10= 1.65 to 3.3

Tzeentch: T3= 2.2 to 4.4, T4= 1.65 to 3.3, T5= 1.1 to 2.2, T6/7= .55 to 1.1

(Shooting): T3= 1.1 to 3.3, T4= .82 to 2.46, T5= .54 to 1.62, T6/7= .26 to .78

Khorne: T3= 2.64 to 7.48, T4= 1.98 to 5.61, T5= 1.32 to 3.74, T6/7= .66 to 1.87

 

 

Uses/Mark.

Undivided: This weapon can harm anything, and can munch regular troops with ease, best used as a mid-way weapon between all daemon weapon choices. It may seem minimal, but to harm a wraithlord and AV11 vehicles is nothing to take lightly. Pack some speed enhancement and you can hurt the rear of most vehicles.

 

Slaanesh: Mark Initiative gets your attacks ahead of the enemy that can otherwise kill you. Your best bet is to send this guy against targets that need one hit to go down, such as small target bases that usually have 3 wounds each. Orgyns, nob units, even monstrous creatures have a reason to fear this weapon as you hit on 3's on most targets with the WS of the lord. With the initiative, D6 attacks and WS you can munch troops decently and multi-wound models equally.

 

Tzeentch: Mark helps durability against power weapons and duelling other characters. The role of this weapon is to pack heat no matter what the lord does, for those who would go slow or fast this weapon will give him a use either way. It can rival the Khorne Daemon Weapon if used in both shooting, and assault for arguably less chance of harming yourself.

 

Nurgle: This one is perhaps one of the most powerful of daemon weapons, added durability for melee with the mark. It can harm wraithlords, immortals and MEQ with equal ease while not sacrificing the ability to munch GEQ like a regular daemon weapon. This one is the half-way point between slaanesh and undivided when killing Monstrous Creatures because of its great ability to ignore toughness values. Its .33 wounds per attack wounding T4+ models.

 

Khorne: Possible 17 attacks on the charge (18 with juggernaught) this is a true squad killer. 11/36 chance to fail, 7 attacks minimum on the charge is also nothing to sneeze at even for the risk involved, an average of +7 attacks will be what you get if you dont roll a 1.

 

+Personal note on Daemon Weapons:

You can go with claws, you can go with force weapons, you can go with warptime sorcerers, but when you face psychic hoods, overwhelming odds or just some character or fun, then a Daemon Weapon is for you. Suicide Comets, Chivalrous Lords who take the fight off the hands of their subordinates for epic duels is what we all imagine when we imagine a cool leader. I like my khorne lord, even if he got smacked down by 3 wraithguard after rolling a 1 when charging. He's munched scouts and many other things, so he's really fun to me. I send him in unsupported just to see what he can do, the extra risk and pressure added when I roll is like a real gamble. All part of the fun, and all part of the game! Enjoy your lord and dont mind what other people bark about a Daemon Weapon weilder.

 

 

-(E.=4+DIT)

Sure, I'll add some on other toughness values. I wont go as far as calculating INV saves into the calculations as all lords must deal with them irregardless of what they use. Its been added, and properly formatted. (I got skewered by my own math skills, pardon my brainfart)

Anyone willing to credit a collaberation effort, go ahead and quote/take what I typed above and add your own part to complete it.

[GWvsJohn]

Suggestions on fielding renegades, themed army lists - any takers?

 

Do you just want a sort of general comment on renegades, how to start them and ideas for armies? Or something a little more concrete? If something lighter is welcome, I've been thinking of a little article called

 

Starting a Renegade warband or "So you've turned your back on the immortal Emperor of mankind, now what?"

[Brother Nihm]

Suggestions on fielding renegades, themed army lists - any takers?

I'll take it. :D

Smashing :)

Could you send me a PM with your ideas?

 

Edit: images added to the Primer.

 

 

I would like to add on the math-hammer part.

 

What type of math you looking for nihm? (I'll give my offer as a base, someone else can finish it properly)

If its dice maths, best I can offer for Daemon Weapons is a pure result chart.

A result chart is perfect.

A little thing, even though it says 'marines will perish in the first lines' we might want to make readers aware that the results are calculated against T4 targets.

 

Would Daemon Weapon performance vs other Toughness values, be something that you would like to add?

 

Suggestions on fielding renegades, themed army lists - any takers?

 

Do you just want a sort of general comment on renegades, how to start them and ideas for armies? Or something a little more concrete? If something lighter is welcome, I've been thinking of a little article called

 

Starting a Renegade warband or "So you've turned your back on the immortal Emperor of mankind, now what?"

The initial thoughts were a brief run-down for players wanting to field Renegades. These include inspirational tips and advice on which Codex to use for any given type of Renegade chapter. If you want to coordinate with The Warpghost, you two could split the guide up in sections. Regardless, post up your article and I will try to expand on it, or add it in as a part of a greater one. (I suggest you two coordinate the effort though).

 

 

Thanks for the input, keep it coming!