How to kill Abaddon ?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Saw the stupid little "T" on the storm shield in the Armory and thought only Terminators could take it. Then I re-read the description and saw my error. :)

[Cale]

Ah, yeah. That happens. Stupid T!

 

:)

[El Magnifico]

how about that hive tyrant with 3 guard, i'm curious

[Cale]

I really have no idea what the stats on a Hive Tyrant and three Guard are. Certainly taking away four of Abbadon's attacks is very harsh, and they've got a bunch of wounds, and they're not getting insta-gibbed...

 

I've always been a fan of the Tyrant and Guard. My suspicion is that you're onto a winner, there, but I just don't know for certain. It's possible that their damage output, after loading them up with Lashes, will simply not be sufficient. If anything is going to hold them back, I'm pretty sure it'll be that.

 

I'd have to know their stats to say for certain, though.

[El Magnifico]

I really have no idea what the stats on a Hive Tyrant and three Guard are. Certainly taking away four of Abbadon's attacks is very harsh, and they've got a bunch of wounds, and they're not getting insta-gibbed...

 

I've always been a fan of the Tyrant and Guard. My suspicion is that you're onto a winner, there, but I just don't know for certain. It's possible that their damage output, after loading them up with Lashes, will simply not be sufficient. If anything is going to hold them back, I'm pretty sure it'll be that.

 

I'd have to know their stats to say for certain, though.

 

 

their statlines are on the GW website (think 6's)

 

only the hive tyrant has an inv save (if it even takes it) and even then, its only 6+. but they are all immune to instant death due to the hive tyrant being synapse.

 

 

the guards have 2 attacks base, plus 1 for their talons. you can swap those talons for lash whips which lower the enemies attacks by 1. you can also give them implant attack, which makes them cause 2 wounds for every one that isnt saved. and they have rending (str6)

 

 

the hive tyrant is a monstrous creature, 3 attacks base. if i go character hunting i give mine talons and a lashwhip/bonesword (for 4 attacks base , -1 attack to enemies and the catalyst power - i ALWAYS strike, even if you kill me before i get the chance.)

 

 

 

so basically, on the charge, i get:

 

 

from the guards: 3 rending attacks each (max of 9 - you can have 3 guards)

from the tyrant: 5 standard attacks (hitting on 3's due to toxic miasma, wounding on 3's re-rolling, ignoring armour)

 

 

if abbadon fails 2 saves he is dead (as implant attacks multiplies it to 4 wounds suffered).

 

 

i have taken down C'Tan(s), Forgeworld greater daemons and all sorts with relative ease using that squad, i have yet to find something that gives it much trouble. and for the final kick in the teeth it is only about 230odd points.

 

 

 

 

edit: for your info, guards have 2 wounds, hive tyrants have 4 (all toughness 6). and they are all Initiative 6 as well

[Cale]

I'm not exactly certain what you're talking about, El Magnifico, but I got myself a copy of the Tyranid codex and put together my own squad. For the record:

 

A Hive Tyrant with: Toxin Sacs, both Adrenal Glands (for +1I and +1WS) Toxic Miasma, Bonesword, Lashwhip, Scything Talons, Implant Attack and Warp Field

plus 3 Tyrant Guard with Implant Attacks

 

comes to 335 points.

 

This leaves me confused where your figure of 230 came from, unless you were just misremembering by 100 points. Also, for the record, they aren't all initiative six, and they aren't all strength six, either.

 

Ultimately, to bring this squad in-line with Abbadon's point cost, I ditched Warp Field, Toxic Miasma, and both sets of Adrenal Glands. This removes the 6+ ward save from the Tyrant (whoopdedoo) and allows Abbadon to hit on 3's. He also strikes before the Tyrant, this way, but that's really alright because the Tyrant's got Catalyst anyway. So, all in all, those upgrades aren't a huge loss, and they bring the Tyrant's squad down to 275 points exactly.

 

So, moving on with that:

Both squads are the same speed. Abbadon's got a gun, which means that if the 'nids never move within 12" of him, he wins. If they move within 12" of him, he gets to charge them. By all rights, Abbadon should get the charge, here. On the other hand, who knows. So, I'm going to do this calculation with neither side receiving a charge bonus. I think that should make for a pretty fair comparison.

 

Abbadon has a base 4 attacks--all of which he loses to Lash Whips. So, he takes 0, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 attacks, depending on what he rolls. He hits on 3s and wounds on 2s (which he can re-roll). He ignores their armour and they have no invulnerables. If I read that Tyrant Guard rule correctly, his wounds will always go to them, first.

 

The Tyrant has 4 attacks. He hits on 4s and wounds on 3s. He ignores Abbadon's armour. Abbadon gets a 4+ invulnerable, but takes two wounds if he blows the save. Also, due to Catalyst, the Tyrant will always get his attacks, so initiative isn't relavent for him.

 

The Tyrant Guard have two attacks each, or 6 attacks total. They, too, hit on 4s, but they also rend on 6s. That means they merely hit 1/3 times and rend 1/6. If an attack rends, Abbadon gets his 4+ save (and once again takes two wounds if he blows it) and if it doesn't rend, it wounds on a 4+ and Abbadon gets a 2+ save.

 

Abbadon does, on average [2/3 x 35/36] or 0.65 wounds per attack. So:

with a roll of 1 and 0 attacks, he does 0.00 wounds on average.

with a roll of 2 and 2 attacks, he does 1.30 wounds on average.

with a roll of 3 and 3 attacks, he does 1.95 wounds on average.

with a roll of 4 and 4 attacks, he does 2.60 wounds on average.

with a roll of 5 and 5 attacks, he does 3.25 wounds on average.

with a roll of 6 and 6 attacks, he does 3.90 wounds on average.

 

With a 1/6 chance of rolling each of these results, he does:

 

[(0 + 1.3 + 1.95 + 2.6 + 3.25 + 3.9)/6] or 2.17 wounds per turn.

 

Meanwhile, the Tyrant does [1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 2] or 0.33 wounds per attack. With four attacks, that's 1.33 wounds.

 

The Guard do [(1/3 x 1/2 x 1/6 + 1/6 x 1/2)x2] or 0.22 wounds per attack. With six attacks between them, that's another 1.33 wounds.

 

Now, these results show Abbadon killing about one Guard and taking two or three wounds. Of course, due to the nature of Implant Attack, it doesn't work that way. He either takes no wounds, two wounds, or dies.

 

Suffice to say, these numbers are sufficient to indicate that Abbadon is outclassed. He's going to lose this fight. The question, really, is how likely he is to survive the first round and kill, in the second round, another Guard (or two).

 

The Tyrant has a 38.58% chance of doing exactly two wounds to Abbadon and a 13.19% chance of killing him outright.

 

The Guard have a 55.12% chance of doing exactly two wounds and a 16.66% chance of killing him outright.

 

Thus, he has a [(1 - 0.1319)x(1 - 0.1666)] chance of failing to die outright to either set of attacks, and a [1 - (0.5512 x 0.3858)] chance to avoid taking exactly two wounds from each. Since he must both fail to die outright to either and avoid taking exactly one wound from each, his chance of living is: [(1 - 0.1319)x(1 - 0.1666)]x[1 - (0.5512 x 0.3858)] or 0.57 (57%)

 

So, he is more likely that not to live through to the second round of combat. In the second round, he'll have one extra attack (one Lash Whip will be gone) and so his average wounds will go up by [0.65 x 5/6] (the 5/6 is there because the extra attack won't matter if he rolls a 1 for his Daemon Weapon) or 0.54 wounds. That takes him up to 2.71 wounds, on average, which means that he kills another guard.

 

He may have put another wound on a third guard, but he only has about a 29.7% chance of killing all three by the end of the second round.

 

At the end of the second round, he is almost certainly dead.

 

So, there you go. Hive Tyrant and Guard are bigger melee badasses than Abbadon. Though he puts a significant dent in them, they almost certainly win.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

And that, for all you Ordo Malleus/Hereticus chattel out there reading this, is why the Tyranids are the greatest threat the galaxy has ever faced. Ever. :blink:

[Witchdoctor]

Lash whips can be lame if you get caught up in them like that.

 

Implant attack with rending or any other armor ignoring quality is also dur hur.

[DevianID]

I play 'nids in addition to others, and I must say the lash whips will NEVER make abbadon lose 4 attacks unless something goes horribly wrong. If abbadon charges, then only 1 lash will be in contact, and if the tyrant + guards charge then they need to be close enough to go completely around his base in order to use all those lashes, meaning they were only about 8 or less inches away from him to begin with (why is abbadon so close AND in the open, basicly)

 

While I agree that the tyrant + guard can kill him, I think that due to the reality of it the tyranids are better served with the extra attacks + implant than the lash whips that will likely not be used. Lash sword is still worth taking for catalyst though, but if you calculate it with only 1 lash whip from the tyrant (which may not be in contact most first rounds) abbadon does significantly better so long as he doesnt roll a 1 for the extra attacks.

 

I like the genestealer horde for dealing with him though. 17 stealers have a very good chance of taking him down--its almost guarenteed if they charge. But their speed means they can pressure him unlike the tyrant + tyrant guard.

 

Also, a dakka winged tyrant with his 12 shots puts 1.3 wounds on per turn at 18 inches, and with the extra speed he should outshoot abbadon to death.

[Cale]

Most anything, really, can beat Abbadon if it can move and shoot. That's just not what we're looking for, here. =P

 

You're right about the Lash Whip, though. It's not really as good as I was giving it credit for. Still, extra attacks on the Guard are likely to do more good, anyway.

[Brother Vyze]

One of the Vets at my GW suggested this:

3 or 4 (which ever costs about the same as Abaddon) Wraithlords w/ Wraithswords

- If they are kept togther (which they should) they stand a good chance of killing him on the charge. If Abaddon charges the Wraithlords lose.

[Witchdoctor]

Has a winged DP of Tzeentch with BoC and Warptime been mentioned yet? Pretty sure that could gun->melee Abaddon down.

[Lord Humongous]

Gift of Chaos might work equally well. It happens at the start of your turn. Let Abbadon get within 6 inches, use gift, fly away so you are more than 12" away if it fails, and repeat.

 

Not much use in an actual game, but in theory it can kill him.

 

Then again, like was said- any tough "shooter" with a good "gun" who can move enough to stay out of combat can in theory kill him.

[Artos]

Ok!Ok! So that answers the other questions,how about how to use him on the Battlefield accuraltly,

I used him with a whole army of World Eater Khorne Berzerkers and his Bodyguard,and was fine I wasted a army of Eldar! Including a Eldar Phantom Titan! That was some Battle! :rolleyes: (Remembers

Battle!)It was the Battle of the Rana Dandra!Every Chaos stuff and Charachters we could muster'

against all Te Eldar Pheonix lords,and Titans and stuff the Eldar players could muster including

The Harliquins!It was a virtual slugfest!and Chaos won!Hoooray! ^_^

[Witchdoctor]

Gift of Chaos might work equally well. It happens at the start of your turn. Let Abbadon get within 6 inches, use gift, fly away so you are more than 12" away if it fails, and repeat.

 

Not much use in an actual game, but in theory it can kill him.

 

Then again, like was said- any tough "shooter" with a good "gun" who can move enough to stay out of combat can in theory kill him.

 

Since it's Tzeentchian you could use gift twice a turn.

[Cale]

If Abbadon is within 6" of anything of yours that's important at the start of your turn, it's only because his controller is a supreme idiot or very unlucky. I mean, if he's that close it means he could have charged you--and if "you" are a character with Gift of Chaos, it means he should have charged you--that overrides just about every other possible concern he might have.

 

No, using Gift of Chaos means having a character surviving a round of combat against him (dubious) or relying on your opponent to screw up terribly.

 

Neither is a good option, and that basically leaves Gift of Chaos as a bad option.

[Witchdoctor]

If Abbadon is within 6" of anything of yours that's important at the start of your turn, it's only because his controller is a supreme idiot or very unlucky. I mean, if he's that close it means he could have charged you--and if "you" are a character with Gift of Chaos, it means he should have charged you--that overrides just about every other possible concern he might have.

 

Not necessarily. What if Abaddon get charged by lesser daemons? A decently sized mob would keep him occupied for at least a round, and if you move your prince within 6" of Abaddon, or even just charge into CC, you can try again next round should he be lucky enough to survive. Scenario is easily attainable, seeing as how you can charge with daemons on the turn they deep strike.

 

PS: Get back to Ultramar.

[WelshMullet]

librarian power thats kind of like a vortex grenade. 1 hit ko. i think...

[TheDarkApostle]

librarian power thats kind of like a vortex grenade. 1 hit ko. i think...

Only if he fails the Initative test I think?

 

TDA

[Vassakov]

Not to break Cales Mathhammer or anything, but on Tuesday I saw Abbadon, Chosen of Chaos bought low by Orks. And not Nobz, Kans, Dreads or even the Shokk Gun. Nope, normal, ordinary Boyz and a Warboss.

 

Heres what happened...

 

Orks

Warboss - Kustom Shoota, 'Uge Choppa

~115 pts IIRC

 

10 Boyz - Slugga and Choppa, 1 Big Shoota

~ 70pts

 

10 Boyz - Shootas, 1 Big Shoota

~70 pts

 

5 Bikers - Choppas, I think

 

Chaos

Abbadon

 

7 CSM, Champ with PF + PP, Plasma gun, Plasma pistol, HB.

 

Obviously, the Orks were hugely outmatched. It got worse, when the CSM won first turn and the Bikers were blown apart instantly. In response, the Orks advanced, and failed to do anything with shooting.

 

Turn two saw the CSM kill 3 shoota Orks and lose the Plasma gun. The Orks wound Abbadon with shooting (Shock, shock horror, horror!!!)

 

Turn 3, and more Shoota Orks die, breaking the squad. Then the WAAGHH was declared, and Abbadon found himself surrounded by 10 Orks. Unfortunatly, due to I6, only 3 Orks were left in the Kill zone. And they put a wound on him. Warboss was out of combat, Orks hold.

 

Turn 4, CSM decide that Abby will be fine, and shoots the last of the Ork shootas. Then we look at the Warboss stats, and see he has 5 S6 Attacks, hitting on 4's wounding on 3's. He then chops Abbys head off, thanks to a Snake Eyes save.

 

Cale, want to do the odds on Abbadon winning that match up? I'd be genuinely interested in seeing the likelyhood of Abby winning, cause I thought he'd win easy. Still, crappy dice rolls will do anyone in...

 

Oh, and my Anti Abbadon Squad? 14 Blood Claws, 3 PF and a Pack Leader with PF and BP. 278pts. On the charge, 16 S8 attacks and 44 S4 attacks. Eat that.

 

EDIT: Damn Grammer.

[Lord Humongous]

If Abbadon is within 6" of anything of yours that's important at the start of your turn, it's only because his controller is a supreme idiot or very unlucky. I mean, if he's that close it means he could have charged you--and if "you" are a character with Gift of Chaos, it means he should have charged you--that overrides just about every other possible concern he might have.

 

No, using Gift of Chaos means having a character surviving a round of combat against him (dubious) or relying on your opponent to screw up terribly.

 

Neither is a good option, and that basically leaves Gift of Chaos as a bad option.

 

Your probably right, but you do overlook one obvious (and common) case where Abadon might end up within 6 inches at the start of your turn.

 

Difficult terrain. Since Abadon lacks frag grenades, anybody hoping to face him in HtH is gonna be standing in some, if they aren't a "supreme idiot". And that means Abadon's charge could come up short. Get yourself settled into some difficult terrain 11" away from Abadon, and there's actually a pretty good chance he can't charge you.

[Cale]

Nah, I thought about that. He's an independant Character. He has Move Through Cover by default. Even if you do manage to park between 11 and 12 inches away, in cover (not a particularly easy feat, even for those who are pretty good at eyeballing) he's got almost a 50/50 chance of making it anyway. If you're out of that one inch zone, you either don't get GoC or Abbadon's chance of charging you rises from 42% to 70.4%

 

Finally, if you park 11" away, Abbadon doesn't have to come after you. He knows you've got Gift of Chaos. He could just go do something else, and not even move within 6" of that Sorcerer at all.

 

Basically, unless you're really inhumanly good at judging distances (and can reliably land in that one-inch zone) this tactic is basically not going to see you through reliably. In fact, even if you are inhumanly good at judging distances, this tactic isn't going to see you through reliably.

 

 

No, Witchdoctor's got the right idea. Tarpit him, then get within 6" to GoC him. It takes some doing, but it actually gets you the shot pretty reliably with a big squad of lesser daemons. Course, the shot itself isn't all reliable...

[Witchdoctor]

Course, the shot itself isn't all reliable...

 

Yeah, I wouldn't try it unless you could do it twice a turn, and even then it's a pretty low chance. I'm more partial to the BoC tactic. If GoC does work, however, it's game over for him with no saves allowed and, since Chaos has no psychic hoods, he can't stop it. You also have a chaos spawn afterwards (for what it's worth).

 

PS: Get back to Ultramar, you blueberry.

[Primarch Naogedd]

The evilest herokiller that I have seen so far is actually in the chaos codex. Yes it is boys and girls, our herokiller of the day is......... TYPHUS!

 

Seriously, I have seen this guy lay low the Nightbringer. 3+D6 attacks, wound on 4+, ignore armour saves, as well as force weapon. That means a feth-load of attacks, (not as much as Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon of Khorne), wounding on a 4+ ignoring his special nurgle mark toughness bonus, Abbadon is reduced to his 50-50 invulnerable, and if you manage a wound then you can force-weapon him to a quick grave.

 

I dont have the number-crunch capability to do this in probability, but maybe Cale could do it.

 

Yknow what is dumb, Ctan having vulnerability to force weapons. They dont technically have a soul to get sucked to the warp, so I dont know how it works.

 

(Sorry about the lack of apostrophes and question marks, my computer has just replaced both with this: é)

[TheDarkApostle]

The evilest herokiller that I have seen so far is actually in the chaos codex. Yes it is boys and girls, our herokiller of the day is......... TYPHUS!

 

Seriously, I have seen this guy lay low the Nightbringer. 3+D6 attacks, wound on 4+, ignore armour saves, as well as force weapon. That means a feth-load of attacks, (not as much as Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon of Khorne), wounding on a 4+ ignoring his special nurgle mark toughness bonus, Abbadon is reduced to his 50-50 invulnerable, and if you manage a wound then you can force-weapon him to a quick grave.

 

I dont have the number-crunch capability to do this in probability, but maybe Cale could do it.

 

Yknow what is dumb, Ctan having vulnerability to force weapons. They dont technically have a soul to get sucked to the warp, so I dont know how it works.

 

(Sorry about the lack of apostrophes and question marks, my computer has just replaced both with this: é)

C'tan have a weakness to the Warp since the warp is anathema to them. It's the single most dangerous thing there is to the Stargods.

 

That's why they want to kill every psyker in the galaxy and close the Eye of Terror shut :)

 

TDA