How to kill Abaddon ?

[Cale]

Well, whatever it is, he doesn't have it. :tu:

[retlaw83]

In all the games I've played with Abaddon, he's survived two. The rest he died in, and not due to enemy action - I typically roll three 1s for his attacks a game and don't save them.

[battle captain corpus]

With a big stick, when he's asleep... B)

Mephiston realistically is possibly one of the only solutions...that or a beast of a Fex...

[DevianID]

The close combat hive tyrant with 6 attacks on a charge can come close, with rerolls to wound, init 6 implant attack and all... 3 hits, rerolling st 6 wounds is most likely 3 wounds, and each failed wound counts for 2, so 2 failed saves and hes toast. The tyrant, with only a 6+ invuln save, though, is gonna get pounded in extended engagements.

 

So what about Ghazgul? Anyone mention him yet? He has 6ish st 10 powerfists, 4 wounds, immunity to instant death, and a 2+ invuln save for the first 2 rounds of combat versus abbadon thanks to his orky waaagh. With around 8 attacks on the charge (i foget exactly how many he gets, I know its +2 on a charge instead of +1) at st10 and then another 6 in abbadons turn, the combination of ~14 powerfists could well overcome abbadon before Ghaz's 2+ invuln save wears out.

[Gorb]

However Mephiston should have more than a fair chance of killing him, due to the fact he is the Imperiums strongest Librarian, and experienced for a loyalist (he's close to 800 yrs old).

And Abbadon is the heir to the legacy of the strongest Primarch, is over 10,000 years old, and is undoubtably the strongest Traitor Marine alive (and non-Daemonic). Fluff-wise, Mephiston would never have a chance. Otherwise he would have sacrificed himself already.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Also, for the record, Abbadon has a 40.64% chance of killing the described Archon with Shadow Field and Witch blade in one round of swings.

 

The Archon, on the other hand has only a 4.2% chance of killing Abbadon in a single round of combat (counting the chance for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself) and a 29.56% chance of having killed Abbadon by turn two (once again, counting both chances for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself).

 

So, in two rounds of combat, the Archon has a less than 1/3 chance to kill Abbadon while Abbadon has a 64.76% chance of killing the Archon.

 

The Archon is definitely outclassed. He might get lucky and win, but odds are on Abbadon. 'course, Abbadon's almost twice as expensive, and two[/ii] Archons probably beat him.

 

 

You got a few things wrong with your calculations.

 

1) It's an Archite, not an Archon ... you know, the wych varient with extra rules and with the initiative score that nothing goes before.

2) What the hell is a Witch Blade?! I said he was armed with an Agoniser

3) I don't think you've calculated it correctly, considering the 40% chance you gave Abaddon of winning in round one. He'll most likely be forcing the Archite to make 4 save's against his 2+ invulnerable, each dice having a 1/6 chance of failing.

 

I suggest you go back and work that out again, actually sticking to the ARCHITE described, and actually checking what each item he has does.

You'll end up with a much different result.

 

I'll even help you with what his gear does for him. (well, the bits relevent to this fight)

Wych weapons (that the character gets for free and doesn't count as using up a weapon slot): 1/2 the WS (rounding up) of any model in base contact that does not have an UNMODIFIED S6+ on their profile.

Agoniser: wounds on 4+, power weapon

Shadowfield: 2+ invulnerable that is lost if it's ever failed (which doesn't apply against Abaddon, because if he fails the save he's dead anyway)

Combat drugs: Will allow the Archite to have +1 attack and re-roll ALL misses in combat (there's other abilities, but they have no impact on the fight)

Splinter pistol: nothing but provide +1 for extra weapon pretty much

 

This will mean that in the combat, Abaddon will have WS4, not 7, meaning the archite hits him on a 3, while Abaddon needs a 4 in return.

With 6 attacks on the charge, re-rolling misses, hitting on 3 and always wounding on 4, plus the fact it's a power weapon and means Abaddon only gets his 4+ invulnerable and not the 2+ ... you'll find his chances are ALOT higher then you thought.

Don't forget that he's got his 2+ invulnerable to save him from Abaddon's attacks, so he's got a decent shot at making it to round 2.

[Captain Idaho]

So what about Ghazgul? Anyone mention him yet? He has 6ish st 10 powerfists, 4 wounds, immunity to instant death, and a 2+ invuln save for the first 2 rounds of combat versus abbadon thanks to his orky waaagh. With around 8 attacks on the charge (i foget exactly how many he gets, I know its +2 on a charge instead of +1) at st10 and then another 6 in abbadons turn, the combination of ~14 powerfists could well overcome abbadon before Ghaz's 2+ invuln save wears out.

 

id have to agree with Ghazghull, simply for his 2+ invulnerable for 2 turns. other than that, still think Abbaddon would just win it thanks to those re-rolls...

[Pariah Mk.231]

So what about Ghazgul? Anyone mention him yet? He has 6ish st 10 powerfists, 4 wounds, immunity to instant death, and a 2+ invuln save for the first 2 rounds of combat versus abbadon thanks to his orky waaagh. With around 8 attacks on the charge (i foget exactly how many he gets, I know its +2 on a charge instead of +1) at st10 and then another 6 in abbadons turn, the combination of ~14 powerfists could well overcome abbadon before Ghaz's 2+ invuln save wears out.

 

id have to agree with Ghazghull, simply for his 2+ invulnerable for 2 turns. other than that, still think Abbaddon would just win it thanks to those re-rolls...

 

 

Ghazzy only get's 7 attacks on the charge, hitting on 4+ and striking last. So he'll charge in, Abaddon swings, say, 8 times ... hitting with 4-5 (on a 3+), almost guarenteed that many wounds. It's just the 2+ invulnerable and the fact he's immune to Instant Death that save him, even if he fails one (not that it matters, seeing as Abaddon isn't swinging at S10).

Ghazzy will go, hitting about 3-4 times, probably wounding all of them, and Abaddon will probably end up 2 wounds down.

Repeat performance in round 2 sees Ghazzy (if he's lucky enough to hit enough times with only 5 attacks) with a good chance at knocking Abby on his arse ... but would you expect any less from the Prophet of the WAAAGH!!!

[Tfcdogbert]

What about (presuming Apoc here) a pair of vindicares?

 

First round they fire sheild breakers, both probably hit, one wounds, no save from Abbadon.

 

Second round they both fire hellfires, barring ones both hit both wound and he saves one.

 

Third round turbo penetrators, both hit one wounds causing 2 wounds, he saves one and loses another wound.

 

Before abadon gets into charge range probably another wound from standard fire from the vindi's killing him.

 

THis is without accompanying math as i am far too tired to even think about it now but would this work roughly as i described?

[Pariah Mk.231]

No it wouldn't, because you can only ever have ONE assassin, no matter what source you get it from. You can't take one from Daemon Hunters, and then another from Witch Hunters, and it specifies this in each of those books.

[Tfcdogbert]

Hence why i said, Presuming Apocalypse.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Then I don't have a clue, I havn't read the Apoc rules yet.

[angel of justice]

off the top of my head for similar prices most of the time cheaper

 

Dark Angels Chief Librarian Ezekiel using mindworm

Azariel with a hq built for hand to hand

2 dreadnoughts

heavy bolters and other weight of fire weapons including bolters

mepheston

pariahs

landraider crusader

land speeder tornadoes

2 vindicators

 

 

abbadon only has a twin linked bolter last time i check so you know to avoid his melee strenght and attack with range if he teleports in delay and pull back in a x pattern from the unit so once the unit is destroyed he has to spend time walking to the next one which gives you a chance to fire at him.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Actually yeah, Pariahs are a good choice for the job, provided Abaddon doesn't wipe them out before they have their chance, as all they have to do is wound him a few times and he's gone, no saves allowed.

Maybe have a lord with a resurection orb join the unit so they can still get back up after Abby cuts them down, they'll most likelyget him before he can kill them all off.

 

Has anyone noticed that we're all just assuming Abaddon is wandering around alone?

[Stella Cadente]

What about (presuming Apoc here) a pair of vindicares?

 

First round they fire sheild breakers, both probably hit, one wounds, no save from Abbadon.

 

Second round they both fire hellfires, barring ones both hit both wound and he saves one.

 

Third round turbo penetrators, both hit one wounds causing 2 wounds, he saves one and loses another wound.

 

Before abadon gets into charge range probably another wound from standard fire from the vindi's killing him.

 

THis is without accompanying math as i am far too tired to even think about it now but would this work roughly as i described?

but your forgetting the number 1 rule with Vindicares, they never hit with normal rounds, and never wound with special rounds, its sods law and 9/10 will happen, we all know it

[Cale]

Also, for the record, Abbadon has a 40.64% chance of killing the described Archon with Shadow Field and Witch blade in one round of swings.

 

The Archon, on the other hand has only a 4.2% chance of killing Abbadon in a single round of combat (counting the chance for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself) and a 29.56% chance of having killed Abbadon by turn two (once again, counting both chances for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself).

 

So, in two rounds of combat, the Archon has a less than 1/3 chance to kill Abbadon while Abbadon has a 64.76% chance of killing the Archon.

 

The Archon is definitely outclassed. He might get lucky and win, but odds are on Abbadon. 'course, Abbadon's almost twice as expensive, and two[/ii] Archons probably beat him.

 

 

You got a few things wrong with your calculations.

 

1) It's an Archite, not an Archon ... you know, the wych varient with extra rules and with the initiative score that nothing goes before.

2) What the hell is a Witch Blade?! I said he was armed with an Agoniser

3) I don't think you've calculated it correctly, considering the 40% chance you gave Abaddon of winning in round one. He'll most likely be forcing the Archite to make 4 save's against his 2+ invulnerable, each dice having a 1/6 chance of failing.

 

I suggest you go back and work that out again, actually sticking to the ARCHITE described, and actually checking what each item he has does.

You'll end up with a much different result.

 

I'll even help you with what his gear does for him. (well, the bits relevent to this fight)

Wych weapons (that the character gets for free and doesn't count as using up a weapon slot): 1/2 the WS (rounding up) of any model in base contact that does not have an UNMODIFIED S6+ on their profile.

Agoniser: wounds on 4+, power weapon

Shadowfield: 2+ invulnerable that is lost if it's ever failed (which doesn't apply against Abaddon, because if he fails the save he's dead anyway)

Combat drugs: Will allow the Archite to have +1 attack and re-roll ALL misses in combat (there's other abilities, but they have no impact on the fight)

Splinter pistol: nothing but provide +1 for extra weapon pretty much

 

This will mean that in the combat, Abaddon will have WS4, not 7, meaning the archite hits him on a 3, while Abaddon needs a 4 in return.

With 6 attacks on the charge, re-rolling misses, hitting on 3 and always wounding on 4, plus the fact it's a power weapon and means Abaddon only gets his 4+ invulnerable and not the 2+ ... you'll find his chances are ALOT higher then you thought.

Don't forget that he's got his 2+ invulnerable to save him from Abaddon's attacks, so he's got a decent shot at making it to round 2.

 

I'm not familiar with the Dark Eldar at all, but you posted all these stats before. I used exactly the stats you posted. I did not look up any wargear on my own.

 

He takes six attacks, hits on 3s, re-rolls failed rolls to hit, wounds on fours, and Abbadon gets a 4+ invulnerable.

 

Abbadon hits on 4s, wounds on 2s, re-rolls failed rolls to wound, and the Archite gets a 2+ invulnerable.

 

Abbadon instakills the Archite with a single wound and the Archite kills Abbadon with four.

 

My terminology may have been off, but you'd already given me all the necessary information.

 

My math was right :(. Those are the correct probabilities.

[Captain Idaho]

doesnt Abbadon get re-rolls to miss too? makes him positively evil to face!

 

but your forgetting the number 1 rule with Vindicares, they never hit with normal rounds, and never wound with special rounds, its sods law and 9/10 will happen, we all know it

 

except when i faced a DH list in last years GT and the guy brought out a suspicious dice that he used whenever a single dice roll was needed. didnt catch on until turn 3 and by then i had conviently lost 2 lascannons and a plasmagunner...

 

Maybe have a lord with a resurection orb join the unit so they can still get back up after Abby cuts them down, they'll most likelyget him before he can kill them all off.

 

afraid that wont work, as Pariahs dont get WBB rolls as they are not Necrons.

 

but combined arms is a reasonable way of taking him on. as an IC, he can only attack a single unit at a time, so a Terminator Assault squad (preferably a big one), lead by a Librarian with a force weapon (though Veil of time could be better as then you can pile on the wounds to get past his invulnerable) and a Dreadnought could do some damage to him. but then we are getting in realms of using more points to take on a character evenly who will cost less.

 

probably the biggest guarantee in killing him would be the Nightbringer accompanyed by 10 Pariahs. he would have to decide which to go for first, so the NB is likely to survive a while if he went for the Pariahs first, and with 5 str10 attacks with no saves at all (even invulnerable) and T8, 5 wounds and 4+ invulnerable not even Addadon will win that one.

 

but both 10 Pariahs and the NB cost 720pts together! so its not very efficient eh?

 

Has anyone noticed that we're all just assuming Abaddon is wandering around alone?

 

people are just hoping he is i think!

[Cale]

doesnt Abbadon get re-rolls to miss too? makes him positively evil to face!

 

Nah, just re-rolls to wound. Re-rolls to hit'd be much better, really, since he is strength eight. But, the re-rolls come from that lightning claw thingy, I think we're supposed to presume, so it makes sense that they're on the wound not the hit.

 

Also, I was working on Thunderhammer Assault Terminators against him, but you get about seven of them and they just don't really cut it. Better than Grey Knight Terminators, but not by enough.

[For Terra and Mortarion]

i've played with the new abbadon twice and both times he died after taking down at most 5 orks with him!

1st time: ork stompa deff cannon. took 3 wounds off him before he could get anywhere and, without his now dead retinue was crushed under 30 boyz!

second time: vortex grenade from a puny 50 pt commisar! god i hate those things.

speaking of vortex grenades, what about a vortex support missile on a warlord titan? yes its 2500pts, BUT it has 3 other uber weapons and has probably just taken abbadons extremely expensive retinue down, so it should get its point back in a turn.

[Gorb]

Hence why i said, Presuming Apocalypse.

Hence why the hell would Abbadon be wandering around IN PLAIN SIGHT on an Apoc table? If you add in ranged methods of killing Abbadon, I say we add in terrain. No LOS = No Vindi headshots. I think we should just stick to combat, and standard 40K combat at that.

 

Has anyone noticed that we're all just assuming Abaddon is wandering around alone?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

2 dreadnoughts

heavy bolters and other weight of fire weapons including bolters

landraider crusader

2 vindicators

Righto. Let's deal with this a stage at a time. Two Dreads? Abbadon will destroy one in one round of combat, I'd assume. The other wouldn't be able to deal 4 wounds in a single round, and Abbadon would probably destroy that one in the second round of combat.

 

Heavy bolters/Land Raider/Vindicator shooting at him? I refer you to my above point:

 

If you add in ranged methods of killing Abbadon, I say we add in terrain.

 

When he gets in combat range (remember, he can DEEP STRIKE, and Vindicators have a minimum range on their guns), those tanks are all dead (even the LR, at a push).

 

So yeah, I'd stick to ways of killing him in combat. Pariahs are a good choice, although any Chaos player dumb enough to let Abbadon get stuck in combat with 10 Pariahs deserves to have their Abbadon killed.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

@ Gorb: First of all, Vindicares don't need to have him in the open, they can snipe him in a squad anywhere, anytime. Unless you're referring to terrain.

 

Second of all, Vindicators do not have a minimum range on their guns. I don't know what you're thinking.

 

Third of all, rule number 1 of 40K: Terminators neverpass their saves. Ever.

 

Fourth of all, why not try a couple of Tzeentch princes? comes out to only 25 points more, and I daresay they have as good a chance as anyone here

[angel of justice]

Abbadon is slow after he deep strikes he can move a wapping 6 inches, then assault another wapping 6 inches and cant sweeping advance because hes in terminator armour so after he has assaulted one unit move everyone back as far as possible and shoot him when he has destroyed the unit.

 

if your eldar, nids, dark eldar and orks you could avoid him because your a lot faster than a terminator

 

if your necrons gauss weapons will do it to

 

 

Cale or anyone else thats good at the math can you please do mathhammer on how many stock 5 man devestator squad armed with heavy bolters or lascannons you can get and how long it takes to kill him or you could just get 3 squads of 7 marines each with a heavy bolter and do the math

 

2+/4+ just remember the dice are fical

 

and his retinue makes him 500points or so the cost of 3 vindicators and change

[Cale]

The comparison against shooting units isn't all that interesting, really. Anything which can move and take shots at ranges greater than 18" will basically beat Abbadon if given a big enough time frame. To a certain degree, we can ignore that situation by pointing out that Abbadon is an IC, and that you generally won't be able to shoot him before he gets into combat.

 

Still, for kicks, it takes:

 

15 BS:4 Lascannon shots to produce four average wounds against Abbadon. Those 15 shots will have a 63.44% chance of killing him. To get a probability greater than 9/10 (90%), you'd need 23 shots.

 

72 BS:4 Heavy Bolter shots to produce four average wounds against Abbadon. Those 72 shots will have a 57.213% chance of killing him. To get a probability greater than 9/10 (90%), you'd need 119 shots.

[Maladon]

Also, for the record, Abbadon has a 40.64% chance of killing the described Archon with Shadow Field and Witch blade in one round of swings.

 

The Archon, on the other hand has only a 4.2% chance of killing Abbadon in a single round of combat (counting the chance for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself) and a 29.56% chance of having killed Abbadon by turn two (once again, counting both chances for Abbadon to roll a one and wound himself).

 

So, in two rounds of combat, the Archon has a less than 1/3 chance to kill Abbadon while Abbadon has a 64.76% chance of killing the Archon.

 

The Archon is definitely outclassed. He might get lucky and win, but odds are on Abbadon. 'course, Abbadon's almost twice as expensive, and two[/ii] Archons probably beat him.

 

 

You got a few things wrong with your calculations.

 

1) It's an Archite, not an Archon ... you know, the wych varient with extra rules and with the initiative score that nothing goes before.

2) What the hell is a Witch Blade?! I said he was armed with an Agoniser

3) I don't think you've calculated it correctly, considering the 40% chance you gave Abaddon of winning in round one. He'll most likely be forcing the Archite to make 4 save's against his 2+ invulnerable, each dice having a 1/6 chance of failing.

 

I suggest you go back and work that out again, actually sticking to the ARCHITE described, and actually checking what each item he has does.

You'll end up with a much different result.

 

I'll even help you with what his gear does for him. (well, the bits relevent to this fight)

Wych weapons (that the character gets for free and doesn't count as using up a weapon slot): 1/2 the WS (rounding up) of any model in base contact that does not have an UNMODIFIED S6+ on their profile.

Agoniser: wounds on 4+, power weapon

Shadowfield: 2+ invulnerable that is lost if it's ever failed (which doesn't apply against Abaddon, because if he fails the save he's dead anyway)

Combat drugs: Will allow the Archite to have +1 attack and re-roll ALL misses in combat (there's other abilities, but they have no impact on the fight)

Splinter pistol: nothing but provide +1 for extra weapon pretty much

 

This will mean that in the combat, Abaddon will have WS4, not 7, meaning the archite hits him on a 3, while Abaddon needs a 4 in return.

With 6 attacks on the charge, re-rolling misses, hitting on 3 and always wounding on 4, plus the fact it's a power weapon and means Abaddon only gets his 4+ invulnerable and not the 2+ ... you'll find his chances are ALOT higher then you thought.

Don't forget that he's got his 2+ invulnerable to save him from Abaddon's attacks, so he's got a decent shot at making it to round 2.

 

I'm not familiar with the Dark Eldar at all, but you posted all these stats before. I used exactly the stats you posted. I did not look up any wargear on my own.

 

He takes six attacks, hits on 3s, re-rolls failed rolls to hit, wounds on fours, and Abbadon gets a 4+ invulnerable.

 

Abbadon hits on 4s, wounds on 2s, re-rolls failed rolls to wound, and the Archite gets a 2+ invulnerable.

 

Abbadon instakills the Archite with a single wound and the Archite kills Abbadon with four.

 

My terminology may have been off, but you'd already given me all the necessary information.

 

My math was right :blush:. Those are the correct probabilities.

 

How is abby hitting on 4's when he has a high ws? shouldn't it be on 3"s? or what's a Archites WS?

[Cale]

Well, I was informed by Pariah that the Archite had some device (wych weapons?) which halved Abbadon's weapon skill, making it three or four or whatever instead of seven. I presume the Archite is five or six.

 

Like I said, I have no idea, really, what that Dark Eldar character is like. Pariah posted all the relavent information, though, in his first post. I used what he posted to the letter (though I guess I got some of the names wrong or something) and those are the numbers that came out. I presume that he is right. If he isn't, take it up with him.