Wulfen Lord Leo Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I honestly think that the Blood Ravens, while being my favorite loyalist chapter, are not a lost Legion. My theory is they are a loyalist splinter (that somehow survived) of either A. The Alpha Legion, given their grudge against them or B. The Thousand Sons, partly because of the whole Psyker route and partly because of my reading of Dawn Of War: Tempest. In it a Blood Raven's Librarian with amnesia joins up with Arhirm in search of knowledge, and Arhirm claims that the libby was one of them. With the two Legions, they are going to be one of those eternal mysteries. We have to live with it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1730946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuGGzy Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 DUH... it's the Rainbow Warriors! They were so embarased by the "loafer lightness" of them that they became "stricken" in 2nd Ed. You can't have a legion of super human fairies mincing about the imperium now can you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1734811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 DUH... it's the Rainbow Warriors! They were so embarased by the "loafer lightness" of them that they became "stricken" in 2nd Ed. You can't have a legion of super human fairies mincing about the imperium now can you? And that's why GW got rid of them. Rainbow Warriors were based on Aztec warrior culture. I'm with the school that One of the Lost, decided to rebel against the Emperor's dream, and then were utterly and totally destroyed. Now the other one, could have just gotten destroyed in combat. Possibly going after the Ork Empire, getting butt whooped, and eventually having Horus and the Emperor go there to "Save" them, but alas too late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1734870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_inquisitor Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 possible theory that's only slightly been touched on: what if the two primarchs landed on two different planets that the emperor or the great crusade never got around to, and thus their respective legions disbanded and assimilated into others. Alpharius / Omegon, whether loyalist or traitor, found the two and recruited for whatever dark and nefarious / light and happy happy joy joy actions he's up to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1735031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Knight Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Blood Ravens-Most like a loyalist survivor of the Thousand Sons, IMHO, not a missing legion. Rubaniek-yes GW did say it was a mistake, I have not found were they did it exactly just know it was done, but if they chose to give the existing flubb they could easily go back an use it, also nobody has even recognized the potential discussion over the Validictors. Don't think they rebelled or were destroyed, like I said earlier I think the Emperor saw several potential futures and planned for most of them knowing they would be essentially forgot about in time. I do like the one theory although a stretch that they were sent out into the eastern fringe to further expand the Imperium and ran into the tyranids, kicked their butt and unknowingly sent the hive fleets towards the Imperium looking for a new home. All 20 legions fought in the crusade, does not state weather or not all 20 primarchs did, but I would make the assumption that they did. I am trying not to subscribe to a fatalistic view of the lost legions, but more of a conspiracy/optimistic view of their fate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1735087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leethal Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 possible theory that's only slightly been touched on: what if the two primarchs landed on two different planets that the emperor or the great crusade never got around to, and thus their respective legions disbanded and assimilated into others. Alpharius / Omegon, whether loyalist or traitor, found the two and recruited for whatever dark and nefarious / light and happy happy joy joy actions he's up to. The 2 Missing Primarchs had served in the Great Crusade. One did a big boo-boo, and got wiped from the records, and it had been hinted that he did something stupid/wrong. As for the other...might have been destroyed completely, and well as you know Space Marines are supposedly the Emperor's Chosen, nigh unkillable, very strong and what not. Could you imagine what fear and insanity would have happened to the entire Imperium, well the non-Marines, if they heard that AN ENTIRE Legion got wiped out? Exactly, better to hide the fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1736106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Cruz Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Could it be likely that the two legions, and their Primarchs, simply got wiped out in the course of the Great Crusade Early in the Crusade, shortly after being united with their Primarchs, they were on campaign. Their Primarchs wishing to prove themselves to their newly found father launch a risky (overly aggressive) campiagn where they failed and lost. For the sake of public image the Emperor had the records purged, perserving the image and morale of the Astartes. It reminds me of the the Roman Emperor Augustus who lamneted the lost of the Roman Legions in the battle of the Teutoburg Forest. I pulled this from wiki, I love this qoute... Upon hearing of the defeat, the emperor Augustus, according to the Roman historian Suetonius in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars, showed signs of near-insanity, banging his head against the walls of his palace and repeatedly shouting Quintili Vare, legiones redde! 'Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!' The three legion numbers were never used again by the Romans after this defeat, unlike other legions that were restructured — a case unique in Roman history. I like simple explinations Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1736183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_inquisitor Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 possible theory that's only slightly been touched on: what if the two primarchs landed on two different planets that the emperor or the great crusade never got around to, and thus their respective legions disbanded and assimilated into others. Alpharius / Omegon, whether loyalist or traitor, found the two and recruited for whatever dark and nefarious / light and happy happy joy joy actions he's up to. The 2 Missing Primarchs had served in the Great Crusade. One did a big boo-boo, and got wiped from the records, and it had been hinted that he did something stupid/wrong. As for the other...might have been destroyed completely, and well as you know Space Marines are supposedly the Emperor's Chosen, nigh unkillable, very strong and what not. Could you imagine what fear and insanity would have happened to the entire Imperium, well the non-Marines, if they heard that AN ENTIRE Legion got wiped out? Exactly, better to hide the fact. Who said that Alpharius / Omegon recruited them after the Crusade? He could have recruited before and one of the primarchs (the one who did the big boo-boo) had evidence against him that he was part of a conspiracy against the emperor. just a thought. pretty sure this thread doesn't change anybody's opinion (if they had one previously) about the two lost leghions. jut fun kicking up dust. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1738408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Windir Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Just a though, is the Horus Heresy books canon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1741025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Lord Leo Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Just a though, is the Horus Heresy books canon? The one rule with the BL books, if they aren't contradicted, they're cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1742391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWade Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The blood raven approach is a fun way to think about the lost legions, but to what I was told they are of a weird founding between the blood angels seed and of the raven guard seed. Hence the name blood ravens and there use of powerful psykers (blood angels) and combat tactics (raven guard). As for the two lost legions, I thought one of them was consumed completely by the Nids during the crusade. Some weird story in the 3rd/4th edition book (nid book) about a marine chapter giving the nids there gene seeds willingly after being dominated by the hive mind. Maybe? I am not sure about the other chapter. Your guess is as good as mine but keep in mind, the entire imperium has the power to completely wipe a memory from the facet of the universe. Gene-seed manipulation, destroying whole worlds, killing alot... alot... ALOT of people, and massive lexicons completely devoted to keeping/destroying records. It is not unthinkable that these two chapters survived the hersey and even there primarchs survived. But something happend to cause the imperium to want to completely erase all memory of them. SO until GW decides to give out more information willingly... not alot much else can be said. Although I think the answer lies not in the Imperial fluff but in Chaos fluff (as they are not controlled by the imperium.. so they might remember... if they cared). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1744945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcaller3801 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 DUH... it's the Rainbow Warriors! They were so embarased by the "loafer lightness" of them that they became "stricken" in 2nd Ed. You can't have a legion of super human fairies mincing about the imperium now can you? Can't be. They were gone long before the Sisters of Battle were founded, yet the text for the Rainbow Warriors states they were destroyed by the Sisters. Ergo, the Rainbow Warriors were around for too long to be a lost legion. Anyways- I think it's obvious. I mean, it's right there- one of the missing Primarchs had the power to become invisible right? Well what sort of warrior can be invisible? Ninjas! Obviously, one of the two mission Legions was the Ninja Legion. And of course, this means that the other Legion, by grand cosmic law, must have been Pirates. Obviously they were stricken from the records due to the fact that they were both wiped out in the great Pirate Nina War. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1744995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 To add something to the discusion. We know about these legions were founded, participated in the GC and were led by their primarchs. We know two of them did something before the HH that got them censured and their statues and names removed from the place of honour- The records about them were expunged by an unknown authority from a single library(not stated which) as far as we are aware of. The fact that there are files missing does not mean they are unknown to other Space Marine chapters. As far as we know, it could be that the said library which is shown in C:SM 3rd & 4th edition could belong to one of the successors of the "lost" legions and the authority which erased the files was their first chapter master whishing to prevent future marines from knowing their past shame and considering the possible link of the shame to the other "lost" legion those files were expunged to, so that none of the future chapter masters would start asking awkward questions. Cheers Hrvat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1745232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Just a though, is the Horus Heresy books canon? The one rule with the BL books, if they aren't contradicted, they're cannon. Not necessarily. One BL employee is quoted as saying that due to the rumour, propaganda and lies abounding in the Imperium, even contradictions are canon (including contradictions between BL books). Furthermore, Pacific81 is quoting Dan Abnett as stating that the HH series supercede any previous fluff in the case of contradictions, making them canon. And to further muddy the water, a BL employee stated at a GW investors meeting that BL books only ever used studio-published fluff as canon (i.e. not using previous BL books). So... take what you want and dump the rest. It's a fictional universe and only really comes to life when we do what we want with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1745278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayken Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 What about this: we know the LotD are probably survivors of the fire hawks chapter. What if the fire hawks were one of the 2 unnamed legions? This would explain GW introducing them in the new SM codex, plus none of the other founding legions had orange power armour! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1745615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The Fire Hawks were from a later founding, the 13th or 23rd I think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1745648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be26 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Just a though, is the Horus Heresy books canon? The one rule with the BL books, if they aren't contradicted, they're cannon. Not necessarily. One BL employee is quoted as saying that due to the rumour, propaganda and lies abounding in the Imperium, even contradictions are canon (including contradictions between BL books). Furthermore, Pacific81 is quoting Dan Abnett as stating that the HH series supercede any previous fluff in the case of contradictions, making them canon. And to further muddy the water, a BL employee stated at a GW investors meeting that BL books only ever used studio-published fluff as canon (i.e. not using previous BL books). So... take what you want and dump the rest. It's a fictional universe and only really comes to life when we do what we want with it. Effectively, it's all canon except everything that isn't. It's best not to worry about the minutiae of it so long as you're not having Chapter Master Billy the Totally Righteous and Awesome, son of the 21st Primarch Billy Sr., kill Angron and his entire Bloodthirster bodyguard with nothing more than a pointed stick, a banana and a sixteen-ton weight (all while being backed up by a squadron of Squats riding choppers). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1745655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanaellars Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 i never heard that thing about sigmar, if it were true, i'll bet u that the assault termies all used thunder hammers. but if it were true, that WHFB to place on a 40k planet, then why arent the orks using their stuff? Way way way way waywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywayway back, it was written somewhere that the WHFB world was a world within the 40k universe, but it was a world that through the acts of some great power or group of powers had been 'sealed off' from the rest of the universe, as some great experiement. As such, there are some rumors that one or more primarchs were there before it was sealed. I even remember a old module way waaaaay back when I was table top roleplaying that had you as a WHFB player who somehow 'got out' and entered the 40k world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1746795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault-captainaetion Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Everyone knows that vulkan and leman russ both disappeared after the heresy right? Maybe the Emperor had lost those other two legions and sent the kids to go find them.?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1748127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Asbjorn Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Oh, knowing th waythe tabletop wargaming industry works, they probably have just buggered off to create a new society outside of the outer rim of the imperium. one day they wil return and killzor us with all the STX tech they took with them, and possibly their rogue trader robots aswell. on a serious note, GW will probably never tell us anything ever, having come from other systems where they tend to release books that explain history in a timeline format and stick to it. GW tends to leave plot threads everywhere and \come back later and tell us that its because their isnt any decent record keeping in the universe (which is alot like making a crappy matrix mmo and telling us that the bugs are glitches in the matrix) If they do reintroduce one of these said lost legions, it will be to give the Blood Ravens a codex(released a month before the next blood angels pamphlett pdf of a sidebar in WD) detailing how their awesomeness is huag and their ten primarchs are all cloned psykers who raep everything always. and to try and sell me another copy of Dawn of War. /rant but really, rainbow warriors lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1748631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oknights Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I think there is only one missing primarch, Alpharius / Omegon would have there two legions combined into one since there where only 20 tubes/ 20 legions. So that leaves one missing primarch/legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1748933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kael Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I've heard several times that GW lost the employees who created those legions so they lost the copyright. I am not totally sure of this, however. You're probably thinking about the 5th Chaos God Malal. I've heard numerous reasons why GW never cleared that story up, never hear that one. I believe it started to let players make their own legions and fluff. But now I think that they just keep the mystery and speculation alive, since we now have numerous renegade chapters. Maybe it's time for GW to clear this thing up. @ Lucifer It states their nameplates were removed. So we can assume that they were found and that their names were known. The 5th god was the god of hating other chaos gods. He would wage war on the other four just because he was the god of chaos. GW wiped him from history just because it got stupid i suppose. Also isnt their a theory that if a 5th chaos god is created than chaos will destroy itself. Captain Kael :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1749761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiftraid Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I like the Sigmar theory best myself. It was all nice and dandy there being two missing legions, until they started writing the Horus Heresy series. They have expanded on the Hous Heresy so much I think it would be hard to base your DIY chapter on a missing legion, cos you can't write them in to the Horus Heresy History. They will have missed every major event. thats pretty much what sparked my question, i understand that they left the 2 legions unamed to allow Gamers ( like myself :rolleyes: ) to create their own original Legion, but with all the HH books, its seems strange to have no mention of them at all, sure they could be off fighting in the Segmentum Obscurus or somewhere else out of the way, but youd think that they would at least merit a mention. Err, this maybe a spoiler so only read if you have read the HH series...... The are mentioned in the HH series. In the book False Gods, during Horus' day-dream-while-he-kinda-dies he see the container of the primarch of the XI legion he touches it to feel "the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass". Maybe he dies while being incubated I doubt they will ever be named as having gaps for you to make your own is one of the many joys of the 40K fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1750551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom13c Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I like the Sigmar theory best myself. It was all nice and dandy there being two missing legions, until they started writing the Horus Heresy series. They have expanded on the Hous Heresy so much I think it would be hard to base your DIY chapter on a missing legion, cos you can't write them in to the Horus Heresy History. They will have missed every major event. thats pretty much what sparked my question, i understand that they left the 2 legions unamed to allow Gamers ( like myself :D ) to create their own original Legion, but with all the HH books, its seems strange to have no mention of them at all, sure they could be off fighting in the Segmentum Obscurus or somewhere else out of the way, but youd think that they would at least merit a mention. By the time of the Heresy the Great Crusade had already been in full swing for 2 or 3 centuries, the bit of fluff that I use for my Legion is that they went far out to the galactic fringe, got "Forgotten", and when they headed home to come to the aide of the Emperor.... they got lost in the warp. Adds for loads of extra fun when a potential S.M. ally doesnt know if you chaos or not...lol. While I am on the subject, I still cant come up with a name. The are Celtic based, ie. Irish... scottish...etc., and their homeworld was/is Celtos. Any Ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1756004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Who are Khan's Riders? (page 35 Fulgrim by Grahm McNeill). It is worded in such a way as to make me think he references one of the lost legions. what are your thoughtd? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/145236-the-2-unnamed-legions-will-they-ever-be-revealed/page/4/#findComment-1756336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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