The 2 unnamed Legions, will they ever be revealed?

[nurglez]

well, in the latest horus heresy book Mechanicum, it did have a brief mention about the lost legions.

 

"would that it were fifteen" mused Dorn.

 

"do not even think it, my friend" warned Malcador. "they are lost to us forever".

 

Also, in the book where horus "goes back in time and witnesses the primarch's being scattered", he see's the holding tank for one of those primarch's, and feels bad at the lost potentional, or something like that, which would imply that they were either lost, or destroyed pretty soon, for what ever reason.

 

Of course, the fluff is constantly changing, and without GW saying what happened to them, everything is theory anyway.

[Dreadnought Baraziel]

I have my own theories about the two missing Primarchs, but they're way complicated. As in, more then I can be bothered to say right now. Just to give you a hint, it involves a couple of mischievous primarchs, the Dark Angels, and a stolen bottle of Lenor.

[Commander Skaav]

I have my own theories about the two missing Primarchs, but they're way complicated. As in, more then I can be bothered to say right now. Just to give you a hint, it involves a couple of mischievous primarchs, the Dark Angels, and a stolen bottle of Lenor.

 

A stolen bottle of Lenor???

 

What, are the Dark Angels going to stuff the two missing Primarchs into a giant washing machine and shrink them like an old pair of socks? :D :lol: :P

 

Come to think of it, you do always at least lose one single sock in the wash, so chances are, that's what might happen to one of the Primarchs! :D :) ^_^

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What, are the Dark Angels going to stuff the two missing Primarchs into a giant washing machine and shrink them like an old pair of socks? :D ;) ^_^

 

Come to think of it, you do always at least lose one single sock in the wash, so chances are, that's what might happen to one of the Primarchs! :D ^_^ ^_^

 

That's given me an idea. Where are things always lost? Down the back of the sofa! I bet if you check down the back of the Golden Throne you'll find two complete Legions. Its amazing the stuff that gets lost down there. ;)

 

Alternatively, they could be 'Lost' in the sense that they got stuck when no-one could remember where they parked the Battlebarges, or they lost the keys to the Navigator's dome, or something similar.

[greatcrusade08]

There is a lot of to and fro-ing about whether they stayed loyal or whether they turned to chaos, bnut there is another group we have failed to consider.

Renegades: What if the two Primarches of these legions were sat having a cup of tea, when news came in about Hours' betrayal. They may have both decided to walk away from both camps and come back in ten thousand years when their siblings have worked through thier issues.

 

GC08

[Commander Skaav]

There is a lot of to and fro-ing about whether they stayed loyal or whether they turned to chaos, bnut there is another group we have failed to consider.

Renegades: What if the two Primarches of these legions were sat having a cup of tea, when news came in about Hours' betrayal. They may have both decided to walk away from both camps and come back in ten thousand years when their siblings have worked through thier issues.

 

GC08

 

As if there Siblings will ever work out their issues?! :D :P ^_^

[greatcrusade08]

As if there Siblings will ever work out their issues?! :D :lol: ^_^

 

Expect to see a special one off jeremy kyle show...."we left our brothers to fight out thier problems, but now we are back"

 

GC08

[night walker]

i personally like the rise of the Tau explanation of the 2 missing primachs phsycic nulls who work for the Dragon

[Commander Skaav]

i personally like the rise of the Tau explanation of the 2 missing primachs phsycic nulls who work for the Dragon

 

Eh? :D <_< :mellow:

 

^_^ :o ^_^

[Skirax]

I had this idea ages ago, when I had no idea of the B&C (Heretic, Traitor!!!!! Yeah, yeah...) that when the emp. returned to terra, he ordered the 2 legions to search for the Black Library. I read somewhere that the Eldar said:

'To enter the Black Libaray, you men must free of chaos taint, or your soul will be overwhelmed and lost forever.' Something along those lines. The 2 legions knew of this and they eventually found the Black Library, despite massive interference from the Eldar. The Astartes were week, their souls tired and chaos had seeped into their minds as they travelled in the webway. When they reached the BL, they were once agian warned, as the E£ldar found taint in their mind. Convinced of their legions loyalty to a point of egotistical pride. They found loadsa info on Chaos, and the majority of the legions turned and waged war amongst themselves. The Webway closed, and the legions were stuck.

 

During the Heresy, The Emperor declared they were lost to the Imperium. That is where the Regent of Terra, Malcador(?) got the idea of them being lost.

 

Elaborate. Discriminate. Do what you like with this theory. I really don't give a flying [deleted by the inquisition]. Joke, Joke! ^_^

[greatcrusade08]

i personally like the rise of the Tau explanation of the 2 missing primachs phsycic nulls who work for the Dragon

 

Eh? -_- ^_^ :P

 

:P <_< ^_^

 

 

the rise of the tau, one of the best fanfic stories ever written.

 

GC08

[Grand Master Tyrak]

During the Heresy, The Emperor declared they were lost to the Imperium. That is where the Regent of Terra, Malcador(?) got the idea of them being lost.

 

Now THAT is a good point. Why does Malcador have to know what happened to them? As Regent he implicitly trusts the Emperor, so what happened to the other two Legions could have been lost because the Emperor can no longer tell us what happened.

[lee265]

wasn't there something stating they all participated in the war either for or against horus?

[Justin Kase]

The question I would have then, is why have their statues been removed from the palace? (From the Lightning Tower audio/mini-book)

 

I mean, if they had enough time to remove those statues and name plates, but decided it wasn't worth the time to remove the other Traitorous Legion's statues and plates, just drape sheets over them, then it obviously happened in a time prior to the whole incident.

 

Anyway, the fluff is constantly changing.

 

If you want to stick to strict original fluff, I'd direct you to p. 27 of the Rogue Trader book, where you would find a photo of "Marine Commander Leman Russ", who was "Commissioned Adeptus Terra as special agent 0134041" and "First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade".

 

Or same book p. 138, in ref to the Feast of Malediction "The feast celebrates the founding of the Chapter by Lynn Elgonsen". (In ref to the Dark Angels)

 

As a side note, on p. 268-9, you can see the catalyst for the purging of the Rainbow Warriors (a photo of Sister Sin taking out a a Rainbow Warrior (Brother Vermillion), who really should have a heavy bolter if his pauldron is to be believed). I did like the revisioning of the Rainbow Warriors as an Aztec influenced chapter.

 

Back then, WFB and 40k were most certainly connected, they even shared some source books in the form of the original Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness. I can't find my copy, but I recall having the option to field a Chaos Plague Marine in WFB at the time.

 

In the old fluff, it was strongly hinted that Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs, though that has certainly changed, especially with the new Warhammer Legends series coming out. (Though I always liked the idea of the twin-tailed comet being a drop pod of some sort). During the Storm of Chaos (WFB) Campaign, this topic had come up and someone from GW had said, “yes, at one point the two universes overlapped – but that is not the current direction or story line in either game.” So, if Sigmar was one of the lost Primarchs, he will remain quite lost

 

A lot of people point towards the Legion of the Damned or the Grey Knights (as seen in this thread), but both seem rather unlikely, especially in recent fluff.

 

Some people have argued that the fact that LotD has the word 'Legion' in their name is enough proof. Though I would point them to the Blood Legion (a BA successor given to us by J. Swallow), the Doom Legion (p.28 & 30 in the newest Space Marine Codex), Legion of Night (also p.30 in 5th ed SM codex) or, if you want a more famous one, the Mantis Legion (from the Badab fluff).

 

The Grey Knights have always been stated as founded outside of the normal foundings. The most likely current fluff is that they are initially formed around the surviving loyalists on board the Eisenstein - it was at the end of that HH book, I'll have to dig it out of the storage box to get an exact quote.

 

Not sure where they may go with the 'Lost Legions', but, with all the hinting about them in the recent HH books, I can imagine that they may decide to feed us some more tidbits until the time (and potential profits) is right. Much like they did in the Battletech universe with the Return of Kerensky.

 

As another little tid bit, here was the information on the Eisenstein prior to the recent wave of HH fluff :

 

Space Marine expansion of Adeptus Titanicus:

"During the bombardment, loyal Adeptus Astartes officers and troops managed to seize control of the frigate Eisenstein. They had discovered the rot that had been spread through the Warmaster's Chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicus. As Horus completed his withdrawal to Istvaan V the loyalists fled into warp space, carrying a warning to the rest of the Imperium. The seizure of the Eisenstein is regarded as the start of the First Inter-Legionary War."

 

 

There was also mention of it in one of the old Epic books:

"It was a captain named Varen and ten marines from the World Eaters, Garro and twelve marines from the Death Guard, one unnamed officer and ten marines from Luna Wolfs, one unnamed officer and twenty marines from Thousand Sons, and a captain named Travitz who led the mutiny and nine marines from the Emperors Children.

 

The Eisenstein was captain Varens frigate he took it over with his World Eaters the others took over their frigates and protected Eisenstein until it made the warp jump."

 

 

WD 264 (US) January 2002 (Page 74) has it that Captain Garro of the Death Guard led his men to warn the Emperor. It then gives several possible rumors about what may have happened. It also has Captain Garro working on a cure for his plagued brothers.

 

CAPTAIN GARRO, HERO OF THE DEATH GUARD

 

When Horus's rebellion was finally understood, seventy Space Marines, alone of five Legions, remained steadfast in their loyalty to the Emperor. These men seized the Imperial cruiser Eisenstein and broke the Traitors' blockade of the Istvaan system to carry word of the treachery to Terra. Their warning may have saved the Imperium. Commanding the Death Guard contingent was a great battle-captain, Garro.

 

There are conflicting testimonies regarding the fate of Captain Garro and his men. There are those who say that in the turmoil accompanying Horus's assault on the Imperial Palace no one knew what to do with the handful of loyal Marines whose entire Legions had turned traitor. The captain, indeed all of the Eisenstein seventy who survived the gauntlet to reach Terra, were placed in custody pending deposition by the Emperor himself, a deposition which, after his fall and enshrinement in the Golden Throne, never came. Garro and the other 'Heroes of the Imperium' never saw the light of day and died prisoners. Others maintain that Garro himself fought in the palace defence, and when he saw what his brother Legionnaires had become, he renounced arms and served devotedly at the Master Apothecariate, where Space Marine Apothecaries receive their training, futilely seeking a cure for the plague which had taken his entire Legion of brothers, until his own death.

 

More fanciful taletellers link Garro and his band to secret societies moving behind the public face of the Imperium, and claim that Garro and his original Space Marines still live, an elite force committed to thwarting the aims of Nurgle, Mortarion and the Death Guard, who appear in battle clad in the colours and flying the banners of the pre-Heresy Death Guard, then vanish, like grey ghosts from the Warp. Still others report that Garro was unable to resist the same lure to damnation which claimed his Primarch. In the aftermath of the Heresy, Garro turned to Nurgle and became a champion of the Death Guard. As the Lord of Flies, he still leads Plague fleets from the Eye, clad in black iridescent armour and a power claw like a great skeletal hand, accompanied by the maddening buzz of insectoid wings.

 

 

(From Space Marine (1989 Edition) (Page 7)

He turned to Varren. "Your World Eaters are our only hope," he said, "Do not fail." Varren's eyes became serious. "We cannot fail," he said, "There is too much at stake. Your deaths will be avenged."

 

Only time will reveal the truths of 40k - that or rebranding of their IP :mellow:

 

(Edit for spelling)

[lee265]

actually i am pretty sure i just got the wires in my brain crossed with them finding all the primarchs

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Grey Knights have always been stated as founded outside of the normal foundings. The most likely current fluff is that they are initially formed around the surviving loyalists on board the Eisenstein - it was at the end of that HH book, I'll have to dig it out of the storage box to get an exact quote.

 

I never get this. Why is it more likely than the official fluff given in the codex?

[Justin Kase]

The Grey Knights have always been stated as founded outside of the normal foundings. The most likely current fluff is that they are initially formed around the surviving loyalists on board the Eisenstein - it was at the end of that HH book, I'll have to dig it out of the storage box to get an exact quote.

 

I never get this. Why is it more likely than the official fluff given in the codex?

 

IIRC the Flight of the Eisenstein novel is more recent then the codex, which is why I say "The most likely current fluff".

 

At one point they had hinted at them being formed from Emperor's 'geneseed', who knows, maybe they augment the loyalist marines with a healthy dose of it ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

IIRC the Flight of the Eisenstein novel is more recent then the codex, which is why I say "The most likely current fluff".

 

You mean this phrase on p404?

" . . . the Imperium requires men and women of an inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos . . . Warriors like you,"

 

Frankly, that refers more to the Deathwatch than anything else. Not that they exist at this point, or are even mentioned by name, nor is there a requirement for Garro & Co to be in the Chamber Militant and not the Inquisition itself.

Seriously, I see no inference to Grey Knights in this. If there is any connection to the founding of the Inquisition, the nearest assumption is that they become Inquisitors, who seek out all of the above named and are not limited to one, regardless of specialisation.

[Justin Kase]

Thank you - that is indeed the quote I was thinking of.

 

Yes, I agree, I believe that is a reference to the forming of what becomes the Inquisition we all know and love (=I= approved).

 

It is just my speculation that they are going to continue the trend to lump the Grey Knights in with the appropriate Inquisitorial codex. Especially as they aren't defined in the C: SM, and I doubt they would get their own independent codex.

 

So, when all is said and done, there are going to be some loyalists, those that managed to resist the siren song of chaos. Those that managed to insulate themselves from the corruption of their legions. Wouldn't these marines be an excellent core for the foundation of the Grey Knights? Considering they have an already appreciable understanding of the warping influences of choas and have proven resistant?

 

Once again, it is my conjecture that this is the direction they are headed with this.

 

As for the Grey Knights being all psychers, it could be something that has developed over time, or something the Emperor does to this intial batch of 'volunteers'. Then again, it may not have been what the Emperor intended at all, he may have intended to give them pyschic defences - I hardly think he saw the Inquisition being what it is today, or wished to have a religion based on him being the new God (which I find odd, as he is willing to play off being the Omnisiah).

 

(Edit - added these lines) Placing these few loyalists into this 'unknown founding' may have also been a way to protect them, renouncing their former Primarchs, recognizing none before the Emperor, and striking their colors, becoming Grey, metaphorically speaking. This would also protect them with a degree of ananimity against the obvious hostility a member of one of those traitor Legions would be greeted with.

 

Anyway, as more HH books come out, I look forward to seeing how it all unravels.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Then it helps to say "I think the most likely fluff is . . ."

 

It's no real fault of yours, just an allergic reaction of mine to various BL writers (Ben Counter I'm looking at you!) being blase about the fluff that made me fall in love with them in the first place, after having spent upwards of £1000 on probably the most expensive unconverted army outside of Forgeworld, whilst being a poor student and in a global recession! I just get rather sick of the lack of customer loyalty by GW. :P

 

Especially as they aren't defined in the C: SM

Thank God, though not for lack of trying on Matt Ward's part.

 

Seriously, though, I could live with some of the Eisenstein 70 forming the Grey Knights. What would make me throw away my Nemesis Force Weapon and pick up a Lasgun instead would be if Loken does a Mary Sue and comes back and ends up in the Grey Knights too.

[Justin Kase]

Then it helps to say "I think the most likely fluff is . . ."

 

I'm usually more careful as I phrase stuff, sorry ;)

 

Anyway, I found a copy of the "Horus Heresy, Collected Visions", as I never managed to get a hold of Vol IV. There is a blurb in there on p. 359 (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) that may also imply the roots of the Grey Knights.

 

 

It's about 5 paragraphs, the first 3 describe Malcador coming up to the Emperor in the Golden Throne with a group of 12 hooded attendants and presenting 4 normal humans (as in not marines) and "vouching for their character, loyalty and strength of mind."

 

The last 2 paragraphs deal with the 8 other hooded individuals :

 

Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflicnching loyalty they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combatting horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years.

 

Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be.

 

Which, to me, implies the initial formation of the Grey Knights.

 

While I agree it would be a bit lame to see Loken somehow survive, I'm a bit torn, as I really did enjoy the character. I wish that they had left it a bit more ambiguous, with him being in route to that hanger or something. My guess would be that some of the Marines survived the bombardment, and were subsequently rescued by the Fists, though my money would be more on Tav and his group.

 

Sorry for drifting off the topic at the end here ^_^

[Skirax]

I was reading the post with all the info on it, [That's right Justin Case, i'm talking to you!] and it occured to me: Where did the GK get their colours from? They could have been the Dark Knights, clad completely in black, and the LotD could have been grey? Or maybe they get their colours from the seventy.

 

Think about it, If there were WE as well as Qruze, Garro and the seventy, apart from the blue on the WE shoulders, they were all WHITE. With a bit of grime on that armour and wadda ya get? GREY! Grey...Kights... Qruze had his armour re-painted white for the Luna Wolves original colours.

 

Coincedence? Probably, but my diseased brain thinks not!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Skirax Posted Today, 07:44 PM

I was reading the post with all the info on it, [That's right Justin Case, i'm talking to you!] and it occured to me: Where did the GK get their colours from? They could have been the Dark Knights, clad completely in black, and the LotD could have been grey? Or maybe they get their colours from the seventy.

 

Actually their armour isn't painted grey, its unpainted, leaving the ceramite bare. Which is metal greyish. Thats why you see plenty of GK armies with metal armour, and plenty with just grey.

[Skirax]

Ah yues, but you expose my point even more: in Flight of the E, there is a mention of DG armour being pure, unpainted ceramite.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Skirax Posted Today, 08:50 PM

Ah yues, but you expose my point even more: in Flight of the E, there is a mention of DG armour being pure, unpainted ceramite.

 

Those were the DG Terminators. However, there is no green (DG), no iconography remotely connected to the DG (or the LWs), and no other link. Similar speculation exists within the fluff, with the Administratum speculating that the Blood Ravens gene-seed may come from the Blood Angels, or the Raven Guard, due to name and iconography smiliarities. The speculation proves groundless. It turns out there is no link.

 

Also, where does the red come from? Neither the LWs nor the DG have red in their colour schemes. Neither is there gold. Yet the GKs have both.