The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[The_son_of_Dorn]

i would love to see a a totally different AI

 

aka Where every legion fills every role aka space wolves become nurgles favorite or blood angels become slaneeshi or ultramarines become khornes favorite- so much potential here!

[HandOfDorn]

i would love to see a a totally different AI

 

aka Where every legion fills every role aka space wolves become nurgles favorite or blood angels become slaneeshi or ultramarines become khornes favorite- so much potential here!

 

But surely we are trying to keep a sense of realism in trying to create a solid, believable alternate history, and it would appear nonsensical and maybe even comical if we bandied random legions to random gods, would it not?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Personally I'm curious about the role of aliens in the Ultramar Segmentum. The Ultramarines and their empire seem very open in respect to the Imperium and other factions, using alien technology and being rather friendly with the Tau, it makes me curious as to whether the Ultramarines accept conquered alien races into their empire and possibly incorporate their technologies (or aspects of their technology).

 

has this already been asked? I hope I'm not just sort of repeating previous questions I missed.

[Aurelius Rex]

Regarding the Xenos in Ultramar Segmentum, they are not treated with quite the automatic hatred and suspicion as in both versions of the Imperium, although Orks and Tyranids would hardly play nice however much respect they were treated by an enlightened neighbour. As to the Tau, they initially had a cordial relationship with the mich larger Ultramar Segmentum, and while the realm was distracted with fending off the Imperium and occasional attacks from the Chaos Legions the Tau were able to quietly outstrip them in terms of technology.

 

Recently the Tau have turned their backs on the treaty and have made unprovoked attacks across the Damocles Gulf, voiding their treaties, and freeing Ultramar to use Tau technology as it sees fit. It's possible that there is more to the story than has currently been revealed.

 

As to the Eldar... probably a better relationship than with the Imperium, but ultimately they are self-serving and can't be trusted.

 

As to using their technology, the Marneus Calgar colourpieces in the UM IA article hint that up until he had pushed for them to incorporate the Tau tech, there had been little of that kind of thing taking place. However, if his dabblings prove to be a success it could be the opening of the floodgates and a new golden age for the Segmentum.

 

 

As to having stories of all different permutations of the legions and their fates... according to the infinite multiverse idea and the Eldar colourpiece which opens the Dornian Heresy, these things may exist, but this is looking at one specific alternate reality. As you can imagine, it has taken a massive amount of work to get to this point in just this universe! ;)

 

 

Finally, an announcement on the long-awaited next installment... Barring metaphorical meteor strikes, the Iron Hand IA will be posted here on the first of October 2010. Set your calendars... now!

[Pulse]

Woohoo not long now then!! :thanks:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Giggity-giggity! Been waiting for that one!

[bogdan]

Regarding the Xenos in Ultramar Segmentum, they are not treated with quite the automatic hatred and suspicion as in both versions of the Imperium, although Orks and Tyranids would hardly play nice however much respect they were treated by an enlightened neighbour. As to the Tau, they initially had a cordial relationship with the mich larger Ultramar Segmentum, and while the realm was distracted with fending off the Imperium and occasional attacks from the Chaos Legions the Tau were able to quietly outstrip them in terms of technology.

 

Recently the Tau have turned their backs on the treaty and have made unprovoked attacks across the Damocles Gulf, voiding their treaties, and freeing Ultramar to use Tau technology as it sees fit. It's possible that there is more to the story than has currently been revealed. ;)

 

As to the Eldar... probably a better relationship than with the Imperium, but ultimately they are self-serving and can't be trusted.

 

As to using their technology, the Marneus Calgar colourpieces in the UM IA article hint that up until he had pushed for them to incorporate the Tau tech, there had been little of that kind of thing taking place. However, if his dabblings prove to be a success it could be the opening of the floodgates and a new golden age for the Segmentum.

 

 

As to having stories of all different permutations of the legions and their fates... according to the infinite multiverse idea and the Eldar colourpiece which opens the Dornian Heresy, these things may exist, but this is looking at one specific alternate reality. As you can imagine, it has taken a massive amount of work to get to this point in just this universe! ;)

 

 

Finally, an announcement on the long-awaited next installment... Barring metaphorical meteor strikes, the Iron Hand IA will be posted here on the first of October 2010. Set your calendars... now!

 

1. Why should the Ultramarines with their segmentum be more advanced than the IOM(the IOM have legions like Iron Warriors, Thousands Sons and some primarchs are still alive that and can push for technological innovation). Why must the Ultima Segmentum be more awesome than the IOM?

2. How in the hell the tau manage to make their tech better than that of the humans(they couldn't do that in OTL with the current IOM) or you are subscribing to the idea that humans are stupid than every other alien race in the Galaxy and can not progress without copying the awesome tech of other alien species?

3. How is technological innovation in your IOM and what about reverse engineered xeno tech in the IOM? You must consider that several legions and primarchs are liberal in regards to technological progress.

[Aurelius Rex]

1. Why should the Ultramarines with their segmentum be more advanced than the IOM(the IOM have legions like Iron Warriors, Thousands Sons and some primarchs are still alive that and can push for technological innovation). Why must the Ultima Segmentum be more awesome than the IOM?

There is very little technological innovation in the original timeline Imperium - the techpriests of Mars do things through tote and superstition. If anything the technological stagnation is slightly worse in the Dornian Heresy Imperium, as Mars has lost its way even more. As the Imperium relies heavily on Mars for its technology - with perhaps only the Iron Warriors approaching self-sufficiency, this means that development is at a snail's pace, or even going backwards as the secrets of the past are lost.

 

The Ultramar Segmentum is well organised and free of the stifling confines of superstition imposed by the Imperium and the tech-priests of Mars, and so it was forced to go its own way or be destroyed. They were instead able to progress slowly and steadily, continuing the scientific method rather than falling to superstition, but were held back from making huge revolutionary leaps forward... the reliance placed upon tight organisation and stability in Ultramar Segmentum society subtly stopping people from making changes that were too big. This has only recently been shaken up by Marneus Calgar as master of the Macragge Chapter of Ultramarines taking the risk of implementing scientific advances that were quietly shelved by his predecessors. This part was covered in the two Marneus Calgar colourpieces in the Ultramarines IA which may not be in this thread, but is in the collected Dornian Heresy part 1 PDF which you can download by clicking on the board banner.

 

Each of these IA's are an attempt to see how the first founding legions would be different from the norm, and in this case it was not that they fell to Chaos, but that they had their empire-building nature given more scope than before. I felt it was more original to see how they would be outside the Imperium, and as pariahs, than to have them fall to Chaos like the others. They are more advanced than the Imperium, but it is a lot smaller and doesn't have things all its own way.

 

2. How in the hell the tau manage to make their tech better than that of the humans(they couldn't do that in OTL with the current IOM) or you are subscribing to the idea that humans are stupid than every other alien race in the Galaxy and can not progress without copying the awesome tech of other alien species?

 

In both timelines the Tau have advanced technologically at approximately the same rate, and in both they have managed to outstrip the Imperium in certain areas. At least that is how I have understood the Tau from reading their background, codexes and the like. Seeing that the Tau have even outstripped them in certain aspects, Marneus Calgar has realised that they can learn something from this source of information and is trying to get not just his chapter, but the wider Ultramarine legion to take advantage of this source of technology to catch up. That is not to say they must only copy the Tau to advance - more that it is a wake-up call to them and they will use both human technical advances and captured Tau wargear in their attempt to get back up to speed.

 

3. How is technological innovation in your IOM and what about reverse engineered xeno tech in the IOM? You must consider that several legions and primarchs are liberal in regards to technological progress.

The Imperium in both timelines is incredibly xenophobic, and so in both cases the use or reverse-engineering of xenos tech is generally frowned upon. Add to that the scientific stagnation and superstition which pervades the Imperium in both timelines and things don't look good for that kind of thing... the C'Tan Phase Knife used by some Assassin temples or the incredibly rare Jokaero (?) digi-weapons are the notable exceptions to this, of course. There are some legions which are more interested in technological progress than others - in particular the Iron Warriors, which have also largely turned their back on Mars - they have removed their reliance on the tech-priests (who really don't know what they are doing) and while they have not advanced much, it is better than the situation in most of the Imperium. There were no specific mentions in the Iron Warrior IA about them reverse-engineering Xenos technology, but it is possible that they would be slightly more open to doing so... as long as they could get past their natural paranoia that the Xenos are out to get them! :huh:

[Badaboom]

@bogdan: what you say would make sense if not for the secretism and mystical aura that technological knowledge has in the Imperium of 40K, no matter the universe you choose (official or fanfiction); it makes no sense for the IoM to be so static, but it´s part of the flavour, part of that gothic/medieval sense of general ignorance and superstition. Nonsense? Agreed. But, to be fair, 40K is not about things that makes sense :huh:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

When I asked about the aliens I was actually thinking about less powerful alien races, the more common xenos that don't rate as major factions, even as much as the Tau do, unless the answer is the same in both cases.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Well it always seemd to me as a bit of a logical flaw, but isn't the Ultra's open society an easier target for chaos? I mean in the norm-verse Imperium dogmatism, censorship, fanaticism and superstition is a tool to keep the ignorant masses ignorant enough to avoid the influence and temptation of chaos. I guess, if the Ultamar Segmentum is more liberal in such cases, then chaos attacks and cults must be a more common danger for them.

[Aurelius Rex]

When I asked about the aliens I was actually thinking about less powerful alien races, the more common xenos that don't rate as major factions, even as much as the Tau do, unless the answer is the same in both cases.

 

Ah, I see. As before, they are less xenophobic than the Imperium so there is less of a kneejerk reaction to kill them all. However, if they cause trouble, like for instance the orks, then they would be swiftly dealt with. If they didn't cause trouble, or the worlds they inhabited didn't have anything that might interest the Ultramarines they would be quite happy to let a minor xenos race continue to exist while they got on with fighting more important battles like against the Imperium or fending off Chaos incursions. If the xenos has some particularly useful skill, such as the mining abilities of the Demiurg, they could well have a cordial arrangement. It looks like the Tau have overstepped their bounds, and are going to get a lot of pressure focussed upon them from now on.

 

Well it always seemd to me as a bit of a logical flaw, but isn't the Ultra's open society an easier target for chaos? I mean in the norm-verse Imperium dogmatism, censorship, fanaticism and superstition is a tool to keep the ignorant masses ignorant enough to avoid the influence and temptation of chaos. I guess, if the Ultamar Segmentum is more liberal in such cases, then chaos attacks and cults must be a more common danger for them.

 

It is an interesting question as to if ignorance is the only way to fight Chaos, or if forewarned is forearmed. The ignorance route was that proposed by the Emperor during the Great Crusade, even going to the degree of trying to stop his primarch sons from learning the truth... and look how well that turned out for them! ;) There is more discussion of this in the Alt- Thousand Son IA article, with Magnus being banned from telling his brothers the truth, and eventually breaking that edict and informing Lorgar, which saves Horus... but that is a tangent...

 

Back to the question, the Ultramarine Alt-IA article (second paragraph) does touch on the fact that the rot of Chaos can bring down whole cities, but mainly dwells upon the risk of psykers falling to chaos and taking everyone else with them. One of the intentions of the colourpiece below was to say that their approach is to have weak psykers that might inadvertently be used by the Ruinous Powers be rooted out by societal pressure and the Librarians, and to have psykers who are powerful enough to resist Chaos (such as Astartes Librarians) be valued for their skills and use their abilities for the good of Ultramar Segmentum. It was perhaps not as clear as I would have liked, but the intent was to convey that the populace understands the risk of rogue psykers from a rational point of view rather than a 'burn the witch' way they have in the Imperium, and greatly values those strong enough to do so.

 

Coordination of a realm as large as Ultramar Segmentum is a monumental task, but it is one to which the rigidly organised sons of Guilliman are equal, and none are more vital to this than those of the Chapter’s Librarium. With no access to the ‘soul-binding’ ritual required to produce astropaths, only the powerful Astartes psykers of the Librarium have the ability and resilience to the Warp to communicate across the length and breadth of the Segmentum.

 

Strong psykers are particularly valued in Ultramar, and the danger of ‘wild’ or even weak psykers is well known. Most are weeded out, but some still lurk on the fringes of society. It is the responsibility of the Librarians to sniff out the spoor of these misguided fools, as whole cities have been lost to daemonic incursion because of the unguarded mind of a single rogue psyker.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that the IA's are all written from a perspective which slightly favours the legion in question, seeing them in the most favourable light and which may gloss over some of their more unsavoury aspects... It may well be that the good organisation and regimented society or Ultramar is able to find and catch chaos cults before they can cause too much trouble, or maybe the strict control means that they are just better at covering up the damage that Chaos cults do, and that they are far more prevelant than appears at first sight. :)

 

 

Finally, apologies to those who have pm-ed me - I am staggeringly behind in my responses. I will try to get back to you ASAP. :huh: However, if it is about permission to write Dornian Heresy short stories and the like, then please feel free to do so. :) Bear in mind that it may be easier to do so about the legions which have already been described due to the risk of having things instantly invalidated when the IA comes out, and if possible - like when writing about norm-'verse characters - to steer clear from the bigger name characters... for instance writing from the perspective of a captain or character you have made up rather than a specific one like Khârn, Marneus Calgar, a primarch etc. I know I do exactly this with the sidebars exactly because they detail pivotal moments in the legion's history and are perfect to go alongside the IA. ;)

 

Right... back to the Iron Hands!

 

Aurelius.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Thanks for the reply, I'm pleased :P

I have only one more question in mind, but I'm not sure if this hasn't been asked already... :D Namely that what happend to Emperor's Children heroes Saul Tarvitz and Lucius?

[Aurelius Rex]

Thanks for the reply, I'm pleased ^_^

I have only one more question in mind, but I'm not sure if this hasn't been asked already... :) Namely that what happend to Emperor's Children heroes Saul Tarvitz and Lucius?

 

Sadly there was no place to include them in the Emperor's Children IA colourpieces, which was a shame as I have liked Tarvitz since his first appearance in the Eisenstein Incident colourpiece in the Epic Space Marine game rulebook. The only place one or both might appear in future is in another legion's IA colourpieces, but only if it is appropriate... the editing process is pretty brutal. :)

 

I would guess that along with the rest of their legion they went through the horror of the Istvaan dropsite massacre, although they are at least more likely to be on the same side this time!

[bogdan]

When I asked about the aliens I was actually thinking about less powerful alien races, the more common xenos that don't rate as major factions, even as much as the Tau do, unless the answer is the same in both cases.

 

Ah, I see. As before, they are less xenophobic than the Imperium so there is less of a kneejerk reaction to kill them all. However, if they cause trouble, like for instance the orks, then they would be swiftly dealt with. If they didn't cause trouble, or the worlds they inhabited didn't have anything that might interest the Ultramarines they would be quite happy to let a minor xenos race continue to exist while they got on with fighting more important battles like against the Imperium or fending off Chaos incursions. If the xenos has some particularly useful skill, such as the mining abilities of the Demiurg, they could well have a cordial arrangement. It looks like the Tau have overstepped their bounds, and are going to get a lot of pressure focussed upon them from now on.

 

Well it always seemd to me as a bit of a logical flaw, but isn't the Ultra's open society an easier target for chaos? I mean in the norm-verse Imperium dogmatism, censorship, fanaticism and superstition is a tool to keep the ignorant masses ignorant enough to avoid the influence and temptation of chaos. I guess, if the Ultamar Segmentum is more liberal in such cases, then chaos attacks and cults must be a more common danger for them.

 

It is an interesting question as to if ignorance is the only way to fight Chaos, or if forewarned is forearmed. The ignorance route was that proposed by the Emperor during the Great Crusade, even going to the degree of trying to stop his primarch sons from learning the truth... and look how well that turned out for them! ^_^ There is more discussion of this in the Alt- Thousand Son IA article, with Magnus being banned from telling his brothers the truth, and eventually breaking that edict and informing Lorgar, which saves Horus... but that is a tangent...

 

Back to the question, the Ultramarine Alt-IA article (second paragraph) does touch on the fact that the rot of Chaos can bring down whole cities, but mainly dwells upon the risk of psykers falling to chaos and taking everyone else with them. One of the intentions of the colourpiece below was to say that their approach is to have weak psykers that might inadvertently be used by the Ruinous Powers be rooted out by societal pressure and the Librarians, and to have psykers who are powerful enough to resist Chaos (such as Astartes Librarians) be valued for their skills and use their abilities for the good of Ultramar Segmentum. It was perhaps not as clear as I would have liked, but the intent was to convey that the populace understands the risk of rogue psykers from a rational point of view rather than a 'burn the witch' way they have in the Imperium, and greatly values those strong enough to do so.

 

Coordination of a realm as large as Ultramar Segmentum is a monumental task, but it is one to which the rigidly organised sons of Guilliman are equal, and none are more vital to this than those of the Chapter’s Librarium. With no access to the ‘soul-binding’ ritual required to produce astropaths, only the powerful Astartes psykers of the Librarium have the ability and resilience to the Warp to communicate across the length and breadth of the Segmentum.

 

Strong psykers are particularly valued in Ultramar, and the danger of ‘wild’ or even weak psykers is well known. Most are weeded out, but some still lurk on the fringes of society. It is the responsibility of the Librarians to sniff out the spoor of these misguided fools, as whole cities have been lost to daemonic incursion because of the unguarded mind of a single rogue psyker.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that the IA's are all written from a perspective which slightly favours the legion in question, seeing them in the most favourable light and which may gloss over some of their more unsavoury aspects... It may well be that the good organisation and regimented society or Ultramar is able to find and catch chaos cults before they can cause too much trouble, or maybe the strict control means that they are just better at covering up the damage that Chaos cults do, and that they are far more prevelant than appears at first sight. :)

 

 

Finally, apologies to those who have pm-ed me - I am staggeringly behind in my responses. I will try to get back to you ASAP. :) However, if it is about permission to write Dornian Heresy short stories and the like, then please feel free to do so. :) Bear in mind that it may be easier to do so about the legions which have already been described due to the risk of having things instantly invalidated when the IA comes out, and if possible - like when writing about norm-'verse characters - to steer clear from the bigger name characters... for instance writing from the perspective of a captain or character you have made up rather than a specific one like Khârn, Marneus Calgar, a primarch etc. I know I do exactly this with the sidebars exactly because they detail pivotal moments in the legion's history and are perfect to go alongside the IA. ;)

 

Right... back to the Iron Hands!

 

Aurelius.

Does the fact the Thousand Sons legion is part of IOM have any effect for the treatment of psykers in the IOM? I believe that Magnus and his legion will have a positive effect in how the IOM views psykers.

The Thousand Sons were all about knowledge even in this universe will push for knowledge and psyhic research in IOM. It should be at least a few psyhic research examples be used in war by the general IOM.

Your IOM is like OTL IOM nothing has changed in regards with psykers toleration(despite Thousand Sons legion) or inovation( despite having multiple legions capable to standing against the Ad Mech and conducting independent research), while the general tech level of the legions is mostly the OTL IOM( despite having retain the ability to recreate high tech weapons- it is one thing to scatter high tech weapons in several chapters as the OTL IOM did ,while this IOM the legions should be able to field a highter ratio of high tech weapons) while having the realm of Ultramar being an enlighten realm tolerant of psykers and able to engage in tech inovation.

You also have to consider that the techmarines even in OTL IOM are practical and capable of battlefield innovation.

[Kelbor-Hal]

The only place one or both might appear in future is in another legion's IA colourpieces, but only if it is appropriate...

That would be splendid ^_^

[malika666]

4.) Did the Salamanders still fight on armaggeddon? Did they LEAD the attack on Armageddon?

Wouldn't it be more fitting if the Space Wolves lead the attack on Armageddon?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

4.) Did the Salamanders still fight on armaggeddon? Did they LEAD the attack on Armageddon?

Wouldn't it be more fitting if the Space Wolves lead the attack on Armageddon?

But the Irony of it being the Salamanders leading it would be great.

[Pulse]

Ah, I see. As before, they are less xenophobic than the Imperium so there is less of a kneejerk reaction to kill them all. However, if they cause trouble, like for instance the orks, then they would be swiftly dealt with. If they didn't cause trouble, or the worlds they inhabited didn't have anything that might interest the Ultramarines they would be quite happy to let a minor xenos race continue to exist while they got on with fighting more important battles like against the Imperium or fending off Chaos incursions. If the xenos has some particularly useful skill, such as the mining abilities of the Demiurg, they could well have a cordial arrangement. It looks like the Tau have overstepped their bounds, and are going to get a lot of pressure focussed upon them from now on.

I wish that was the case in the current lore, i think all this xenos killing has gone much futher than OTT. :D

[malika666]

4.) Did the Salamanders still fight on armaggeddon? Did they LEAD the attack on Armageddon?

Wouldn't it be more fitting if the Space Wolves lead the attack on Armageddon?

But the Irony of it being the Salamanders leading it would be great.

 

But the same could the said about the Space Wolves. The guardians who originally saved Armageddon are now invading that world...

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Truley amazing reading as always, I have to say- just seeing peoples point of view and opinions is truley epic :tu:

 

I just dont like the way some hardcore fluff fans see using tau technology as impossible as the imperium appears to be ruled by a non linear somewhat nazi mystic approach where reason has been over run by myth (you see an alien gun that can blow a hole through a tank use it! dur!!!)

 

Personaly i favour the iron warriors legion so much, as in the original 40k fluff pertuabo before falling to chaos was very logically minded as well as scientifically gifted and would use common sense as well as hard scientific analysis to better the legion in terms of siege warfare.

 

But i have one other question, Will the illumanati be present in the Dark Angels release as I fear the unfathamable cypher may of taken a more obvious role in this AI

[The_son_of_Dorn]

anything new to report? is the next ai still on schedule for release :D

[Aurelius Rex]

Er... you want the good news first or the bad news? :lol:

 

The bad news is that after all my good intentions (and setting a public deadline!) I then proceeded to get drawn into painting and modelling another batch of Dornian Heresy World Eaters... which I still have not finished even now, so the first of October is completely out of the question for completion.

 

Good news is that over the last wekend - spurred by shame and guilt - I have been getting a load of work done on the article and have blasted through a number of knotty blocks and problems that I was having with it previously. So sorry to say that it won't be out for the first, but it is now moving very nicely indeed and I will update you all as time goes on.

 

Regards,

Aurelius.

[Kelbor-Hal]

I then proceeded to get drawn into painting and modelling another batch of Dornian Heresy World Eaters... which I still have not finished even now

At least let's see some 'In progress' pictures from the marines then ;)

Or fear our wrath!

;) :huh:

[Aurelius Rex]

It's a deal! I shall get some (probably blurry and poorly colour-balanced) WIP pics of the World Eater tactical squad, lieutenant and librarian I have been working on up at the weekend. :)