Bran Scalphunter Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 @ Vash - the section for Demolisher cannons is listed as Errata, after that is FAQ. Since the Vindy fix is in Errata, it's completely legal and binding, everything after it is a guideline. Ok, I see the different sections, but the whole document is called a FAQ, and FAQs are no longer legal according to GW itself, it didn't say the FAQ section of the FAQ documents, it said the FAQs are no longer legal. I take that to mean the documents in their entirety are no longer legal and official, whether the ruling is under the title Errata or FAQ. Either way GW either needs to grow some cajones and stand by their FAQs or not, saying one part is official, the other not doesn't make a lick of sense. Yeah, but hell will freeze over before that happens, so as far as I'm concerned anything under the title Errata is good. FAQ will just be suggestions I will most likely be following. Stupid, stupid GW... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkiraCho Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 i dont care if you say no vindicators. vindicators, 3 of them since you are asking how to tool a list against his. ork anti tank at ranged is horrendous to say the least, 3 pies will clean up that dumb investment of 800 pts. and then you will have 3 tanks to clean up the rest of his army as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 i dont care if you say no vindicators. vindicators, 3 of them since you are asking how to tool a list against his. ork anti tank at ranged is horrendous to say the least, 3 pies will clean up that dumb investment of 800 pts. and then you will have 3 tanks to clean up the rest of his army as well. 3 isn't necessary, 2 and a whirlwind is what I use and it works just fine... don't forget about pinning! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dietrich Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Consider that a Nobz mob will likely have 3-4 powerklaws and 3-4 big choppas. Assume they took a banner to be WS 5, which means they hit most units on a 3+. Assume the nobz get the charge off (they're on bikes afterall), and going against T4. Say, 3 with 2 ccw's - 5 attacks each, 15 total. 10 hits. 5 wounds. Big choopas x 3. 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds. Assuming 3+ save, that means you lose about 3 models. Considering that most SW models will need 4+ to hit and a 5+ to wound, and orks get a 4+ save and a 4+ FNP save, that means an average attack has a 1/24 chance of causing a wound. So, your normal attacks will do little, considering the Nobz are all W2. Power fists hit on a 4+ and wound on a 2+, and only gives them a 5+ invul - but they will outright kll a nob. Which means each powerfist attack has a 10/36 chance of killing a nob. So, if you can muster 36 powerfist attacks, you'll destroy the unit. A Bloodclaw pack with 4 powerfists (3 on BC's, one on a WGPL) will kill about 3 nobz (9 attacks for the BCs and 3 for the pack leader - 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 make their invul save). Their power klaws, assuming 3 in the unit, will get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds. So, that's 10 dead marines (and the unit must have at least 12 to get 3 PFs and a WGPL), and a Ld at -7, which you'll probably fail. Just like with Codex Marines, terminators with Storm Shields and Thunderhammer (or Powerfist) are our best bet. You get a 3+ invul, but we also can have a 2+ re-rollable basic save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 To beat nob bikers you must do two things well... design a list that can kill them and make sure the list can still beat other armies such as lash spam and daemonic hordes. The best way to beat nob bikers is in close combat with S8+ weapons that ignore armor saves... all they get is their 5+ save... if they fail then you get the insta-kill You have dish out love to make sure that you also take down the warboss too. You also have to be able to do this twice. I would run something like this: WGBL/terminator armor, storm shield, power fist, cyclone missile launcher, wolf tooth necklace WGBG x4/terminator armor, storm shields, power fists, 2x cyclone missile launchers, wolf tooth necklaces All this in a drop pod costs you a little less than 500 points. I would take a second identical unit in an LRC then use the rest of the points for GH in drop pods. 0b ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 @ BO I don't doubt the abilities of the CML by no means, but when you're talking about 6 CML?... I would strongly suggest to be competitive that you throw some assault cannons in that layout and maybe go 3 and 3. I've also had lots of success with heavy flamers in the right areas. 5.33 hits from 2 BS 4 AC's, 3.33 hits from 1 BS 5 AC, 1.44 ignoring FnP and armour, and 4.33 taken as normal wounds, causing 1.8025 wounds to the orks. 2.66 hits from 2 BS 4 CML's, 1.66 hits from 1 BS 5 CML, 3.6 wounds ignoring FnP and armour, causing 1.8 wounds to the orks instant death I'd PREFER the assault cannons, just because I enjoy the more dice rolls as there is more chances at causing damage to other ork units, not just the nobs (yes lots of mini blasts can be fun, but scattering about, only S4 and most of the time the opponent will have lots of cover so the AP 6 does nothing. Not saying the CML's aren't worth it, just saying all 6 is a little iffy for me, plus I still like the chances of getting penetrating hits on AV 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 The cyclones allow two saves, one is cover and the other invulnerable. If the nob fails both he is insta-killed. The donkey cannon can't do that. 0b ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Just tried it. 2 ironclads and a ven in my 1kpts army list. I sent the two IC against his Nob biker squad (6 and a warboss), the ven dread at his boyz without a PC Nob and what was left of my bloodclaws grey hunters and wolfpreist against his other boyz mob. One IC targeted his warboss and killed him, while the other killed 2 Nobs, they stayed there. So yeah it all worked out in my faver with that one and anouther victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamat008 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I don't doubt the abilities of the CML by no means, but when you're talking about 6 CML?... I would strongly suggest to be competitive that you throw some assault cannons in that layout and maybe go 3 and 3. I've also had lots of success with heavy flamers in the right areas. 5.33 hits from 2 BS 4 AC's, 3.33 hits from 1 BS 5 AC, 1.44 ignoring FnP and armour, and 4.33 taken as normal wounds, causing 1.8025 wounds to the orks. 2.66 hits from 2 BS 4 CML's, 1.66 hits from 1 BS 5 CML, 3.6 wounds ignoring FnP and armour, causing 1.8 wounds to the orks instant death I'd PREFER the assault cannons, just because I enjoy the more dice rolls as there is more chances at causing damage to other ork units, not just the nobs (yes lots of mini blasts can be fun, but scattering about, only S4 and most of the time the opponent will have lots of cover so the AP 6 does nothing. Not saying the CML's aren't worth it, just saying all 6 is a little iffy for me, plus I still like the chances of getting penetrating hits on AV 14. Your math is a little off, first Rending ranged weapons don't ignore FnP, so 3 AC's would only inflict 1,45 wounds thus wounding at best 2 Nobs. Thats's why Black Orange is right saying that AssCans are largely ineffective against Nob Bikers. The CMLs on the other hand inflict as you said 1,8 wounds so almost two insta-killed Nobs. Even against hordes, especially in cover, the CML is more efficient than the AssCan in 5th ed. Against a big mob of boys boys in cover 3 ACs would cause 3,61 wounds. CMLs would score about 20-25 hits (I once scored 47 hits with 3 CMLs on a freshly disembarked Fire Dragon squad), as targetting the center of the squad will always result in hits even with scatter. That would kill 5-6 boys. And if you end up targetting AV14 with Assault Cannons(except maybe with a Dread about to charge one), something's gone wrong. That's what Vindicators and Melta weapons are for :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjugin Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 first Rending ranged weapons don't ignore FnP Yes they do. Ranged rending weapons gets AP 2 when you score a 6, and AP 2 hits ignore FnP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamat008 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 My bad, my math is wrong then :) But Rending still doesn't cause Instant death, so CMLs are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 They will get a cover save and then the invulnerable save versus a rending shot. If the shot does not rend then they will get a cover save and a FNP save. 0b :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 They will get a cover save and then the invulnerable save versus a rending shot.0b :) They'll only get one save. Either cover save or their invulnerable save. and then FNP if applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm confused about what you guys are saying, I'm almost 100% sure my math is right, I don't do cover save AND an invulnerable, that's not possible it's either one or the other BO, I think you just jumbled your words or something because I know you didn't intend that. If you look at what I wrote, I noted how many wounds would ignore FNP (AP 2 from rending) and which didn't then totalled up after the rending save was taken, then the normal saves with FNP was taken, THEN I noted that in the CML entry they cause instant death. So by going off what I say in layman's terms (I know my writing was all over the place but it sounded clear in my head), ~1.8 wounds from the assault cannon, 1.8 wounds from the CML's causing instant death. Basically depending on how your opponent allocates, he's likely to have lost no models against the assault cannons, but rather have 2 wounds on models, and with the CML it's quite possible to pick off two WHOLE models from instant death, but I find that while the biker nobs are a big chunk of the army, he can still have hordes and hordes of 30 ork mobs... CML can only do so much. Also saves you 30 points just from switching one squad to AC's instead of CML... not a bad deal in my mind, plus it's competitive against other armies, and as said before, I like the ability to penetrate AV14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 his Nob biker squad (6 and a warboss) WARNING: THE FALLOWING POST IS SLIGHTLY :) this squad mention above would never have come to my mind when playing a 1000 point game, its over half his army. i don't know maybe it is why i just don't like orks. i like the idea of orks, and love them in fantasy, but they just don't seem to fit in to a futuristic world at all to me. i never liked them, and feel that if i was to ever make an ork army it would always lose because i don't like the "well i have 3 or 4 squads of 25 guys, that have way to many attacks one the charge for 6 points" thing. the cost as much as a guardsman yet tend to be twice as able as one (a friend and i were bored one day and tried it out. 75% of the time 2 guardsman were need to kill 1 ork before it could get to them). i don't know... rant over on dislike for orks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Take a Conscript Platoon maxed at 100 Conscripts, take the Independant Commissar's Doctrine and slap one in the squad, now you have a meat shield of 100 bodies that isn't likely to go anywhere anytime soon. Chop em, blast emp, burn em, there's more where that came from and it's like 450 points for the whole lot. Can't complain about that, Guardsman aren't as good as Orks, but they work well en-mass. Anyway back on topic the problem with Nob Bikers and their frequency these days is that they can be taken as Troops if there's a Warboss in the army. FYI a Big Mek also allows a DeffDread to be taken as Troops, so Ork armies can be pretty wonky. In large games that just means that some of the nasties are also scoring, in smaller games they can compose the whole Ork army and it's imballanced and difficult to play against. Saw an Ork army the other day that was a Big Mek, DeffDread, Warboss, 5 Nob Bikers and 15 ArdBoyz in a Battlewagon and that was the whole army at I think 1500 points. Vindicators and Wolf Guard with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 50 is the max for a conscript squad. They suffer the same penalties for losing combat with an attached commisar as for not having one. No officer means no one to shoot to avoid falling back. The Orks will WIPE that squad in one round. Make them fearless, and you're losing 10 guys to combat resolution after losing 15 to the orks attacking you. Besides, independent commisars and conscripts are not available as allies to Daemonhunters or Witchhunters because both are doctrine based, and not part of the core list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ok two Platoons of 50. :) Besides, independent commisars and conscripts are not available as allies to Daemonhunters or Witchhunters because both are doctrine based, and not part of the core list. What's your point? I never said they were allies, the above comment was merely that Orks were superior to IG. Besides a Conscript platoon at max will have 5 officers, that's a lot to go through before they're all gone. Anyway that's off topic in the extreme though. I didn't make the comment to start a discussion about the uses of IG against Orks, and the comment was in addition to an on topic comment. So can we please get back to the topic of how to deal with Nob Bikers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ok two Platoons of 50. :yes: Besides, independent commisars and conscripts are not available as allies to Daemonhunters or Witchhunters because both are doctrine based, and not part of the core list. What's your point? I never said they were allies, the above comment was merely that Orks were superior to IG. Besides a Conscript platoon at max will have 5 officers, that's a lot to go through before they're all gone. Anyway that's off topic in the extreme though. I didn't make the comment to start a discussion about the uses of IG against Orks, and the comment was in addition to an on topic comment. So can we please get back to the topic of how to deal with Nob Bikers? You get NO officers with a conscript platoon. So there's nothing for the Orks to "go through". The relation this has to the main topic is that 1) We shouldn't be talking about this unit in the first place on this board. 2) It doesn't work the way you think it does. 3) It's not even close to a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 You get NO officers with a conscript platoon. So there's nothing for the Orks to "go through". The relation this has to the main topic is that 1) We shouldn't be talking about this unit in the first place on this board. 2) It doesn't work the way you think it does. 3) It's not even close to a solution. Ok so my knowledge of Guard could use improvement :yes:. My point is thus 1) Relax :( , 2) I didn't say it was a solution to Nob Bikers and 3) Lets get back on topic already. The whole point of my origional comment was in response to Ulrik and that's all, unless you have something on topic to say lets move on already. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 So to segway into space wolves.... anyone try using a Leman Russ on the poor bastards? I dont think its that cost effective, but it could be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Lemme think- wounds on a 3+/ 4+, no armor save allowed, but they'll still have a 4+ Cover Save and then FNP. Even with the amount of dakka it can throw at them, it's just not worth the massive points in a upgraded LRE. Better off with LRC going dakka dakka dakka with a couple of TLAC Razorbacks helping along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Oi, and then you have plenty of armor ignoring GH's, BCs, and an IC or two inside of them. Enough shots the enemy cant ignore it... enough CC itll hurt them pretty good. I like it. Will call this Plan C- for crusader, not because its the third plan I like. No, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Wait, so I did good? Sweet! *runs over to chalkboard marked Bran's Score and adds tally to Good side (still far less than the Bad side)* :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGeezer Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Their is one great way to wipe the smile off the face of someone bringing an uber bike pack like this - take your own! WG bikers and Wolf Lord on bike tooled up with TH/SS and runic charms, with no need for 3+Inv from turboboosting you could even take 4 wolves to give some cheap wounds against power claw attacks rather than risk a 3+Inv on one of your WG. Sure it is expensive, but a shade cheaper than his unit and huge fun :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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