Killer Nob Bikerz with a Warboss

[Wolf89]

This is one of those rare occasions that I wish we could take assassins...

 

I see no problem with giving them ALL SS, unless you mean tactical wise then I think it's horrible, because they wouldn't take away that customization from our terminators... they'll for sure have the ability to all take SS, they'll have combi's, the only thing they might do is restrict how much diversity is in there... like up to 2 models in the squad can have a combi, 2 can have a heavy, something like that... but storm shields are fair game... Either way it's a bunch of models where it's easy to swap arms with some green stuff and hobby knives.

 

Now from tactical point... don't give them all SS, just a few, wound allocation is a beautiful thing.

[Warp Angel]

10 Nob Bikers with 4 attacks each, 5(20) with PK, 6 from the Warboss with PK.

WS 5+ from the banner.

Out of 26 PK attacks, 16 or so are going to hit on average. Please explain to me, how, by the rules, you can allocate those 16 instant death wounds to just SS models if you have more than one type of model in the squad.

 

I could be misremembering the rules, but if I recall, you have to allocate the instant death wounds more or less evenly across the squad.

[Wolf89]

I guess I mis-understood the entire unit had powerclaws.

 

But still, why would you (please remember that this isn't JUST against nob bikerz but to still be effective against OTHER armies as well) have SS on every terminator? Plus rounds of shooting won't cut down those powerclaw attacks?...

[Ladislao]

beacuse there a are bunch of way to do 5 armor ignoring wounds... monstrous creatures, rending, banshee, other terimator etc

 

and the orks need only 2 powerclaw + the boss to saturate a 5 man termy unit

 

and btw, till now i attended 2 tournament with my bikers... may enemy were: full nurgle chaos, daemon, fire based tyr, black templars, eldar with 6 war walker, and space marines.... and the only time i lost some bikers to fire was against the eldar

[Warp Angel]

I guess I mis-understood the entire unit had powerclaws.

 

But still, why would you (please remember that this isn't JUST against nob bikerz but to still be effective against OTHER armies as well) have SS on every terminator? Plus rounds of shooting won't cut down those powerclaw attacks?...

 

Not the whole unit, just half.

 

And when it comes to hitting them back, the lightning claws just don't cut it. They can add each lightning claw wound to a different model, removing one wound from a number of models, killing none unless you inflict more than 11 wounds. The Thunderhammers kill outright on every successful, unsaved wound.

[Spacefrisian]

I guess if you have a tactic against this unit you could do well against other units.

 

EG they have T5 W2 and are able to go Fast, have feel no pain and some other stuff.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Another approach is to mount your hero and WGBG all on bikes. You can then match their speed.

 

0b :P

[Grey Mage]

I still say dont try to take out a super unit with another super unit unless you have to. Take it out with ants.

 

Example... in a recent apocalypse game I had a squad of 10 swooping hawks take out a reaver titan in a single round, after nearly dying on the deepstrike between its feet.

 

Same here. Sure we could take a 10 man terminator squad with lightning claws, assault cannons, and storm shields to boot for the pirce of one of these squads.... or we could take a five man squad and drop pod it by the damn lootas and throw a couple of 15 man bloodclaw packs at the bikers.

 

Sure, the bikers will get an armor save and a feel no pain save against the 48 normal attacks, but the 9-12 power fist attacks will still hit on 4's and insta kill vs a 5+ invulnerable save for a fraction of the price of a huge wolf gaurd squad. Also even with 16 attacks hitting thats a likely chance that 3 wont wound *By statistics... wich are rarely the case in life* if not more. That means that even if you didnt kill them the first round you have a chance at standing and hitting him again next round.

 

Even if you do take the terminators putting thunder hammers on wolf gaurd to hunt this unit is silly. Might as well put powerfists on them and save the points. If your playing codex marines sure.... a 10 man TH+SS squad is probly the best bet versus this kind of thing, nid zilla, and greater daemon heavy armies. But as a space wolf you have better options.

[deepstrike]

terminator Wolf Guard with fists, chain fists or thunderhammers. They can have multiple assault cannons or preferably cyclones for multiple missiles going down range. Best to pack them into a crusader and get ready for counter attack. vary your equipment as much as can so your loadout gives you an advantage in wound allocation. He will be throwing alot of dice so use that against him. At the very least you will have mutually assured destruction but at least its one squad not your whole army.

[Grey Mage]

Thing is... its almost half your army.

[Fellblades]

The best way to take out units like this (or monstrous creatures, or anything really nasty), is to realize that the opponent has dumped a huge number of points into one group. Take two or three lesser units to tie it up while the rest of your army takes care of other buisness. For example, how about some 15 man bloodclaw packs with all powerfists. There is enough meat in those units to protect the PFs for a while, and all those hits will eventually take their toll. Also, using bloodclaws makes your army more situationally flexible, rather than purpose building a unit just to take out one other type of unit, you have units that can be used in many more situations

[Warp Angel]

The best way to take out units like this (or monstrous creatures, or anything really nasty), is to realize that the opponent has dumped a huge number of points into one group. Take two or three lesser units to tie it up while the rest of your army takes care of other buisness. For example, how about some 15 man bloodclaw packs with all powerfists. There is enough meat in those units to protect the PFs for a while, and all those hits will eventually take their toll. Also, using bloodclaws makes your army more situationally flexible, rather than purpose building a unit just to take out one other type of unit, you have units that can be used in many more situations

 

26 power klaw attacks.

18 hit.

 

15 wound.

 

Then you get the choppa and big choppa attacks... about 25 of those.

 

You WILL lose combat by bunches. You will take additional casualties or run.

 

You either throw a small, sacrificial unit in the way, or you throw a unit that can take it. Or you run.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One of my buddies who has a lot of experience with nob bikers told me that he does indeed fear vindicators. Basically he said the vindicator makes nob bikers rely upon luck to survive a template attack. If he rolls well for cover or invulnerable saves then he is okay but if his dice are shabby it is really going to hurt.

 

I do think a big squad of Blood Claws riding in an LRC is a great counter to nob bikers and I tip my hat to those here who suggested this tactic. The beauty of fielding the Blood Claws in an LRC Is that a nob biker army has no chance of destroying the LRC from range so they must engage it eventually to win. The Blood Claws are also a troop choice so while mounted they are a fast scoring unit. You have paid less points and can hurt the nob bikers in close combat. This is the right direction for Space Wolves.

 

0b ;)

[Grey Mage]

The best way to take out units like this (or monstrous creatures, or anything really nasty), is to realize that the opponent has dumped a huge number of points into one group. Take two or three lesser units to tie it up while the rest of your army takes care of other buisness. For example, how about some 15 man bloodclaw packs with all powerfists. There is enough meat in those units to protect the PFs for a while, and all those hits will eventually take their toll. Also, using bloodclaws makes your army more situationally flexible, rather than purpose building a unit just to take out one other type of unit, you have units that can be used in many more situations

 

26 power klaw attacks.

18 hit.

 

15 wound.

 

Then you get the choppa and big choppa attacks... about 25 of those.

 

You WILL lose combat by bunches. You will take additional casualties or run.

 

You either throw a small, sacrificial unit in the way, or you throw a unit that can take it. Or you run.

 

Iniative. This isnt fantasy.... those bloodclaws go first. Powerfists and claws go at the same time. You will cause wounds, if they take the first pack theyll still be weaker and the second one can rip them a part a bit. A third might be needed to finish the job.... might.

[GunnarRedsun]

another, cheap opption is 2 dread w/multi meltas. at range they can hopefully drop 2 or 3, and in combat they strike first, and can at least do some more damage before another unit, say long fangs with missile launchers, pound them some more. finish up with a unit of blood claws. thats what i did when i saw a very similar unit in a recent game.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

2 dreads with multi-meltas.

 

I'll be kind and give them 2 turns of firing.

 

4 shots.

3 hits.

3 wounds.

1 slain (the warboss will take one of those wounds.)

 

6 attacks charging.

3 hits.

3 wounds.

2 slain.

 

Attacks back: many, at least 25 PK attacks.

hits: 16

penetrating on 4s, 2s for the Warboss.

That's 8-12 pens.

 

What was that?

[GunnarRedsun]

well counting on this unit charging on turn 2, you can hope (given ork shooting) that with the multi meltas you can drop 2, maybe 3 of the orks. charge in, get your 3 attacks, 6 total, hit with 3, and drop another one or 2, given they are strength 10. they die, and if both don't, then they stay. in all likelyhood they die, probably exploding, maybe dropping down another wound, maybe a nob. thats a good chunk of an expensive unit with 210. add in long fangs with missile, for the 2 rounds, (which with a power weapon, the unit costs 198) and you may be able to drop another one or 2 before the combat, and then another 1 or 2 before you charge with blood claws. units gone turn 3. what is it? it works. i've done it. and the unit i faced had wazzdakka in there as well as the warboss. anywho, its just an idea. i hope it helps, maybe it doesn't. either way, i'm just trying to help

[Grey Mage]

Lets go with this idea. From the points thrown out and about Ill drop the biker squad down with as ~800pts for sake of argument.... say 8 nobz w/ boss. Also for sake of argument lets give them a painboy, powerclaws on the warboss and four nobz as well as heavy armor and and cybork bodies. Heck well even give them a waagh banner so they can hit our wolf gaurd on 3's reliably ok?

 

WGBL- TDA, CML, FB, RC-135pts.

12x Bloodclaws-3x Powerfist- 204pts.

12x Bloodclaws-3x Powerfist- 204pts.

WGBG- TDA, RC, Assault Cannon, Chainfist- 75pts.

WGBG- TDA, RC, Assault Cannon, Lightningclaw- 70pts.

WGBG- TDA, RC, Lightning Claw, Storm Shield- 55pts.

WGBG- TDA, RC, Lightning Claw, Storm Shield- 55pts.

 

This simulation goes off the idea that the ork player can and infact will be able intellegently use wound allocation whenever possible for partial kills.

 

Total:794pts. Gives me 2 scoring units, some rock hard terminators, one of my required HQ's for just over one retinue. Good stuff. Well deploy them forward a bit with support grey hunters on one flank with rhinos backed up by a vindicator, vendread, and a predator for fun.

 

Now weve seen alot of what the biker mobs will do against a marine, lets see what these boys will do against the bikers:

 

Lets be nice and give the bikers two turns to get in. Deploy 12" forward, move 12"x2 Assault 6". That gives use one turn of shooting from the Wolf Gaurd-

 

So weve got 2 shots from the CML at BS 5. Were looking at a probable 2 hits and 2 wounds. Between the chances of rolling a 1 and their 5+ invulnerable save we end up with a likely 1 kill and around a 1/3 shot at a second. This is accompanied by 8 Assault cannon shots who in turn give us an average of six hits, of wich we get one or two rends. Being nice with two rends but being harsh on wounds we get 1 wound at AP 1. Followed up be four more hits wounding on 3's... gives us 3 wounds, of wich 1 is saved by the invulnerable save *1/3* and then one is saved by feel no pain *1/2*. Thus we have two dead nob bikers and two wound nob bikers. Alternatively the warboss takes a wound from the CML and we have three injured orks and one dead one. This leaves us 5 full nobz, 2 half nobz, and a partial warboss.

 

They hit our lines. Furious charge lets the ones with choppas attack at the same time. Well go halvsies and say that weve got three choppas left and four power claws. They dish out 12 attacks, hitting on 3's for 8 hits *2/3* at str5 they do a nice six wounds *2/3 up* of wich we find ourselves with 2 dead bloodclaws *1/3* We take them on CCW+BP marines. In return we find that the bloodclaws have made their countercharge and have 36 attacks to dish out of their own. That nets us 18 hits *1/2* of wich we get six wounds *1/3*. Heavy armor saves 3 *1/2* and of the rest FNP saves 1 *1/2down*. two more wounds, for two more injured nobz. We now have a partial warboss, 4 half nobz, and three nobz.

 

The orks unleash their powerclaws on the bloodclaws. Four nobz deal out 16 attacks of wich 11 hit *2/3*. Of that 11 we get 10 wounds *5/6up* wich wipes out the squad before the warboss even throws in. The warboss finishes any saved by the vagarities of fate.

 

But because of simultaneous attacks we find that we have 9 power fist attacks coming back on the orks resulting in 5 hits *1/2up* out of wich we should get 4-5 hits, for sake of argument well say 4 *5/6down*. Of those 3 get through *1/3down* resulting in three partial nobz going splat.

 

We now have a Partial warboss, a half nobz, and three other nobz. The squad is more than half way dead from a normal combat with a single bloodclaw squad that costs literally a quarter their points and received the charge. We now counter with another turn of shooting resulting in as before in one insta-kill and three wounds... wich removes our half nob and injures the other three.

 

Bloodclaws assault this time, getting the iniative. Our math above holds up and we end up with two more wounds ... wich in this case results in two dead nobz. We now have one wounded boss and a half dead nob. They throw out an impressive 7 powerclaw attacks, of wich 5 hit *2/3up* and five wound *5/6up* and we remove five bloodclaws. At the same time we find 9 power fist attacks hitting the warboss and nob, of wich 5 hit *1/2up* and five wound *5/6up*. Of these lets be nice and say we get two saves *1/3up* wich results in 3 str 8 wounds. Two of them go on the nob and one goes on the warboss because the orkboss doesnt want to lose him yet.

 

Next turn we have 8 CCW attacks coming from the bloodclaws, of wich 4 hit *1/2* and of that 2 wound *1/3up* and the warboss saves 1 *1/2* losing another wound. He dishes out his four attacks, of wich 3 hit *2/3up* and kill *5/6up* and receives three power fist attacks of wich 2 hit *1/2up* and 2 wound *5/6up* and even saying he saves on *1/3 up* he still loses his third wound and dies.... leaving 4 bloodclaws and an untouched unit of Wolfgaurd.

 

The problem here is you should be trying to find a unit that can irradicate the orky squad without taking any losses. Its possible, but even under the best conditions you can still fail armor saves and lose that equally expensive squad. The tactics above give one three advantages:

 

1) 2 Scoring units.

2) A large area can be covered by the bloodclaw squads, increasing the chances that theyll selected as a target by the orkish player. After all theyre only marines with two attacks an crap WS right?

3) You can effectively use a list with this set up in it against other armies, from IG and Tau to SM and C:SM and not be handicapping yourself. In a tournament you may never see the Nob bikers+painboy+boss... you may never see orks. Thus we need something that can be used against multiple opponents to have any practicle use.

 

So, did I miss anything?

[Warp Angel]

Iniative. This isnt fantasy.... those bloodclaws go first. Powerfists and claws go at the same time. You will cause wounds, if they take the first pack theyll still be weaker and the second one can rip them a part a bit. A third might be needed to finish the job.... might.

 

You go first with WS3. You hit half the time. That's nice. So we have a 1/2. Toughness 5. So for each hit, you get 1/3 wound. We're now at 1 out of 6 non PW/F hits having a chance at doing something. Half of those will get saved. So now it's 1/12 attacks doing something. Feel No Pain will negate half of those. So now it's 1/24.

 

Essentially, you need 24 attacks to inflict 1 wound. You have 11 different models to get through before any single model takes a second wound. That means that you need 265 attacks (at statistical average) to kill a nob with basic weapon attacks.

 

So when I said 26 PK attacks and 25 S5 or better attacks, I wasn't kidding. And initiative does NOT matter since you're not inflicting enough wounds for the Ork to care about before the PK phase. 9PF attacks will average 4 dead Nobz and a wound on the Warboss. So you might end up inflicting 6 wounds total, against the 20+ they're going to hit you with. You've lost combat by 15, and if you dont' flee, which you almost certainly will, you've lost about 25 Marines total. That's 5 Bloodclaws left against the Warboss and a couple Nobz still hanging around. Out of 30 Bloodclaws, you've got 5 left, which isn't enough to finish off the Nobz.

 

Better have that third squad ready to go. And don't get caught with just one squad in CC at a time.

 

Any S8 or better weapons in shooting worry them. Especially if they are templates. They literally shrug off normal shooting and normal hand to hand.

 

Good luck with execution of the Bloodclaw swarm tactic. Especially when I remind you that there's probably a second, identical Ork squad just as tough waiting to get you starting around the 1500 point level.

 

You HAVE to be able to hurt them in shooting or crush them without taking stupid amounts of casualties or they'll simply attrit you to death.

[Grey Mage]

I dunno, but the simulation I just ran shows two bloodclaw squads and a turn of shooty can reasonably wipe them out. Id appreciate it if youd analyze that as I beleive it better illustrates my points.

 

EDIT: and before you say attrition me to death.... in a game of KP's Im expecting death to kind of be floating around like fish pee in a river. Still the above simulation shows a loss of 1 kp on the SW side, and less than a third of a 1500pt force in return for 2 kp of orks and half their army.

[Warp Angel]

Your example works as well as mine does, except mine assumes that they get the charge in on you, without taking casualties in shooting for whatever reason.

 

I just wouldn't rely on 30+ models being able to pin the enemy where they want them to do what you said you wanted to do. I'm far more likely (with my Nob bikes - which I don't use against people I want to play against ever again) to land the charge on an isolated unit and wipe it out completely, with little to no loss. With the bike's 18" move and charge range, and the ability to Turbo Boost, I NEVER have to engage in an unfavorable situation like you described. You might get a couple casualties by weight of fire, but I'm still going to smear more squads than you can afford to lose with one or both of the Nob Bike Squads.

 

But I'm stopped COLD by TH/SS Termies charging me, and Vindicators hurt BAD if I fail my 4+ cover. Hand to hand is FUN.

 

We'll never know for certain who is better able to implement their strategy, but I know what I've seen from USING these guys, and everything just sort of crumbles in hand to hand against them, except models with S8 and good Invulns. Though Blood Claws can pay a ton of points to get ablative wounds, amounting to the same thing for their 3 PF models.

[Grey Mage]

Why would a space marine player, ever, ever leave a squad unsupported? I understand the idea of striking where the enemy is weak, but as an ork player will you chase down the bloodclaws and heavy pointed WG or would you for for a vindicator, vendread, predator, and two plasmaheavy grey hunter squads?

 

One has shooting that ignores FNP and wounds on 2+s and the other can take them out in combat. Wichever you choose the other side attacks your army.

 

And as for having problems pinning a unit down, Ill admit Im assuming the above squad is charging one of my above squads. However with the frontage you get from 27 marines it shouldnt be a problem to make them cover enough area to be a problem but close enough to support each other. In fact its what I do every time I play a 40k game.

 

Ill give you that TH+SS terminators are scary, and would do well in CC against this unit... but their unit is small, and easier to avoid by the bikers. Why would you ever charge them? Not to mention we dont get TH+SS termies for 40pts. They cost us 50pts without any other wargear...

[Warp Angel]

And I'm pretty expert with mobility and bikes at negating or minimizing the mutual support thing, ensuring that I'm only engaged in CC with squad at a time. Or taking BOTH my bike squads into BOTH your "mutually supporting" units in the same turn.

 

Like I said, we'll never know whose scenario is more likely, and it really does come down to what the battlefield looks like. It's also possible that one of your Marine units is significantly reduced by shooting before I charge it. Say... by 15 lootas firing 45 S7 AP4 shots from 41" away. We can spend all day on this and not get anywhere.

 

I think we both agree that you need to meet the Orks with overwhelming CC and shooting in order to get them. We just differ as to whether or not your idea is effective at doing that.

 

I KNOW that TH/SS terminators, as a 7 strong, 280 point unit, out of a 260 point LRC will pulp a 10 strong Nob Bike Squad more often than not. This means that I don't need to rely on mutual support.

 

I KNOW that a S10 AP2 pie plate will likely kill a couple Nobz, making me much weaker than I would be normally.

 

I KNOW that a Thunderfire Cannon will inflict wounds on 1/12 of my Bikers every turn (Dangerous Ground + FNP), in addition to the wounds from the S4 Heavy 4 shooting.

 

If I were making decisions about what to use against Ork Nob Bikes, I KNOW I'd choose tactics and equipment that I KNOW will work as stand alone units, THEN I'll start worrying about mutually supporting tactics like multiple Blood Claw packs with characters.

 

You know Wolves better than I do, and you know your playstyle FAR better than I do. So it's very probable that your choice is just as effective as mine. I just choose to go with experience over theory.

[Warp Angel]

EDIT: and before you say attrition me to death.... in a game of KP's Im expecting death to kind of be floating around like fish pee in a river. Still the above simulation shows a loss of 1 kp on the SW side, and less than a third of a 1500pt force in return for 2 kp of orks and half their army.

 

It's the GRIMDARK. Everything dies. :D Its just a matter of WHEN and HOW.

[Wolf89]

Vortex Grenade!

 

Problem solved... stop bringing up mathhammer with countless "uber" squads that have masses of S8+, the horse is dead, leave it be.