[Daemon review] Armoury.

[Captain Malachi]

Right, well there's no convenient time to discuss the armoury, so we may as well do it now. We'll start with icons, since they require a real discussion, and then we'll run through the other gifts after.

 

Here's what was said in the other thread.

Good point on the Icons.

 

I think a discussion of them in-depth would probably work in the Troops section, or merit its own section.

 

My view on Icons:

I don't take them. The logistics of getting them into position and then using them is iffy, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather accept my randomness and get on with buying more units, but I can see some use for them. I just don't think they're essential.

 

Icon Cons

The enemy can counter them

Unless you're taking a large unit, shooty armies can force you to take saves on icon-bearers, and with our saves, most anything other than a Plaguebearer isn't going to survive it.

 

Additionally, the Icon has a 6" radius where you can safely plant the incoming troops. Part of this can be covered by your own unit. The other part is that the enemy can plant a sacrificial unit where you want your guys to arrive. For example, I'm perfectly happy rolling up a heavy flamer-toting landspeeder on your icon squad and cooking some of them. If it's anything other than plaguebearers, I've dropped some of your troops. I've also robbed you of the place to deep-strike your unit.

 

Random Deep-strike arrival

If you want to have Icons in, you're going to do Icons in one of a few ways. First, you're going to take multiple Icons, as a given. One isn't reliable.

 

Then, you're going to determine how you want to split your forces. Let's say I've taken three troops choices. Each of them has an icon. So, do I put all three in one wave and use my troops to establish a foothold and harass the enemy? Or, do I spilt them up and have some in each wave?

 

Then, there's placement. Assuming you start with an icon-bearer in wave one, they have to scatter on impact. 1/3 chance they're where you placed them, more often than not they're about 7-8 inches away from where you wanted them to be.

 

Finally, there's the fact that your reserves are random as well. Will they come in when your icons are where you want them to be? If not, then are you going to gamble on a deep strike closer to position, or one you know is not going to land where you want to be? In this case, there's still a 33% chance of getting a 'hit' on the scatter dice, which is better than the 0% chance of getting where you want to be with an out-of-position icon.

 

Cost

Icons are also 25 a pop. They come on troops and Heralds. Assuming ~3 troops choices, that's 75 points on the icons. If you take four, 100. This assumes a larger game. In a smaller game with fewer units, you might very well want to skip the icons for more bodies, as 50-75 points is 3-4 more bodies easily.

 

Consider what you could get for the points you're spending on icons. Our units are pricey, and 75-100 points can get us something like another Herald, or a chunk of a Daemon Prince, or something else large and nasty. Or some Flamers or Bloodcrushers, for example.

 

Icon Pros

The only real pro Icons give you is that you may deep-strike on-target.

 

However, some things can seriously benefit from an on-target deep strike. Among these...

 

Flamers

Flamers of Tzeentch, if you have an icon close enough to infantry, are a fine way to annihilate people with Breath of Chaos. If you get them in the right place/time, then it can really make them an awesome single-shot weapon.

 

Soul Grinders

They're big. They take dangerous terrain tests that result in immobility when failed. They have no benefit to dropping into cover because of their sheer size. If you're running a Soul Grinder in wave 2, then Icons can be handy.

 

This goes for the naked melee Soul Grinder, and the shooty model. Shooty just wants to be within 24", and naked can deal with a slightly sub-optimal Deep Strike because they are Fleet.

 

Generally Fast Units

Some units have the speed to use a sub-optimal deep-strike position, especially if they can get cover. Flamers, if you don't want to alpha-strike them, are worth it. Similarly, Slaaneshi units can usually fit the bill here, as they're fleet and their fast attack and elite options have a 12" charge as well as fleet.

 

Interesting, my mind is still up in the air over their use but I am leaning in this direction as well. I'm sure they're nice and if it was 10-15 points I'd probably throw down a few, but at 25 points thats usually 3 extra Troops for every 2 Icons you take and I'd prefer more bodies.

 

Having said that, I think Horrors are one of the best units to put them in, they're a shooty unit so they can actually do something in the first wave (where you can't assault anyway) and a 4+ Inv save is moderately tough to kill (basically they're better Firewarriors).

As it is now, I see them mostly as point filler unless you have a good plan with them.

 

Icons and really slow Demons:

 

when you play Nurgle demons mainly I think you have 2 pros with Icons:

 

1. They cant be taken out when sitting in a unit of 14 Plaguebearer

2. A GUO shocking 7 inches into the wrong direction will not be able to really take part for one turn and just soak fire!

 

I think that's everything, I'll post my views later on.

[==Me==]

Shouldn't it be Gifts instead? :)

 

I don't find much use for Icons, they cost a lot and I'd rather have more troops on the board.

 

Is this going to continue with the various undivided and god specific gifts?

[Redbaron997]

I think Icons do have a use, but only really ever buy 0-2 (1 for each wave) anymore than that gets to expensive.

[Raptor1313]

I'd missed the point on slow daemons. It's true, but that doesn't solve the problem that the daemon is indeed SLOW. Honestly, I think running helps slow daemons more reliably, and sometimes you'll have to accept that the bad deep strike is just BAD.

 

Your icons have to deep-strike in, and if they're out of place, the slow-daemon problem is just that. Risk coming in closer to the target, or deep-strike accurately away from the target?

 

If I were going to take Icons, I'd take them on either Horrors (for the high save they have) or Plaguebearers (for the sheer durability.) Then again, I'm going to want at least one unit of troops to sit on an objective, maybe more. Icon on them is a loss, since I want to fight the enemy away from my 'home' objective. I figure in larger games, though, I want 3 troops choices minimum. 75 in icons there, a significant number of bodies in an army where bodies aren't cheap. (5 plaguebeaers, 5+ Daemonettes, 4.76832489 Horrors, some Bloodletters...you get the idea). It's about half a unit or so of footsloggers.

 

You'll ALWAYS be able to use more bodies. You'll SOMETIMES be able to use an Icon.

 

Given how random our army is, I think I'd rather take more bodies.

[Raptor1313]

I'll go ahead and add the rest of the generic Daemon Armory, as I think we've mostly covered icon pros/cons.

 

Gifts of Chaos

The Gifts of Chaos are not god-specific; thus they're available on multiple units.

 

Boon of Mutation

Hey, you! Take a toughness test or become a spawn. On one hand, what's not to like about turning someone into a Chaos Spawn?

 

On the other hand, you need to be within 6" of the other guy, and make them take a toughness test, which they pass scoring at or below their toughness. Since most people we'd do this to are T4, they'll fail this 1/3 of the time. Additionally, should we opt to turn them into a spawn, we can give up a free kill point. You can also use this gift in lieu of swinging in assault.

 

In short? Don't take it unless you're doing it for fun. The units that can take this gift are usually either Tzeentch, which means they want to be furhter than 6" and shooting, or can do much better in melee than cast this.

 

Leave this one at home.

 

Breath of Chaos

Template weapon, wounds on 4+ and ignores both cover and armor saves. Glances a vehicle on 4+.

 

It's gruesomely effective against any kind of infantry if you can get it into range. It will kill terminators almost as easily as it will kill Orks. It works best on a mobile platform, such as Flamers or Daemon Princes with Wings.

 

The biggest risk a mobile target faces after using it is close combat afterwards. If you want to make it, you might kill off all the close targets. If you don't, you might find yourself locked in it to prevent another volley. Expect anything carrying this gift fast enough to use it to become a major target.

 

While effective, it's also not essential. This codex has a shortage of ways to kill vehicles, and plenty of ways to kill infantry.

 

Chaos Icon

Chaos Icon Discussion deep-strikes here.

 

Iron Hide

Power armor for daemons. A lot of Khorne units come with it already. Khorne Heralds and Daemon Princes can buy it. It's bloody expensive for Daemon Princes, though, which is kind of annoying as they need it.

 

Daemonic Flight

Jump pack movement. Comes standard on several units in the codex. Daemon Princes can purchase it, but at a high price.

 

Daemonic Gaze

Three S5, AP3 shots. Not bad anti-infantry shooting, and it might even wing a monstrous creature. The biggest problem is that most daemon units that get this just can't crank out enough shots to be a huge ranged threat.

 

It'll make units more shooty, but not super-shooty. Don't throw it on something that wants to be in the other guy's face.

 

Unholy Might

+1 strength. Sometimes a sergeant-type upgrade in a unit, sometimes available to single units like Heralds and Greater Daemons. Every greater daemon that wants to be in melee should take this. (which is all of them but the Lord of Change). It helps them kill vehicles. Other units? Higher strength means easier to wound the other guy.

 

Instrument of Chaos

It breaks a drawn fight in your favor. Daemons often win combat by a hefty margin, and most of them tend to break the non-fearless, run them down, and look for the next helping of canned spam with guns. Or, there aren't many daemons left, they lose, and they die.

 

Rarely will any of your units actually use an Instrument of Chaos. At five points, it makes decent filler. Occasionally, a unit can make use of it to muck with wound allocation, but there aren't many of those.

 

Leave the instrument at home unless you can't find a better points filler, and feel like building a model carrying one.

[Captain Malachi]

For icons, I think most armies should a minimum of two, it's an insurance policy, though they do need to be kept on the tougher units (i.e. plaguebearers).

 

Right, my thoughts on the undivided gifts:

Boon: While occasionally useful (taking down a carnifex never gets old), I wouldn't take it in a competetive game, too short a range and it doesn't work often enough.

 

Breath: Bottled awesomeness, it's short range is offset by its incredible destructive power, though it does require a great deal of thought on whether its worth the points, though this can only be done on a case by case basis.

 

Hide: Generally, if I can take it I will, only place I won't is on Tzeentch princes since a 4+ INV save is usually enough.

 

Flight: Since only princes can take it we may as well discuss it in their entry.

 

Gaze: Never take it, while it has power, it slows my army down (can't run/fleet) and doesn't cause enough damage, I'm very much a close combat fire player so I don't like this upgrade. Except on Tzeentch heralds where it comes free, and is a special case.

 

Might: Only place I won't take this is on units that don't really use their strength (screamers and units with noxious touch), one of the best gifts in the book imo.

 

Instrument: I'm not even going to consider taking one of these, except as pure points filler, and then only on a plaguebearer squad.

[minigun762]

Breath: Bottled awesomeness, it's short range is offset by its incredible destructive power, though it does require a great deal of thought on whether its worth the points, though this can only be done on a case by case basis.

 

I agree with everything else on the other Gifts, but I wanted to add my 2 cents to this one.

With Breath of Chaos, it should only be considered as an option for fast units that don't rely on Fleet. If you're Fleeting, you're not shooting and so you're wasting the power. If you're just walking, its doubtful that you'll get to fire it at all and its too expensive of a power to take "just in case".

The best things to take it on are Chariot Heralds, Daemon Princes, Lords of Change, Flamers (duh) since they have a naturally high movement speed.

[Raptor1313]

Good point on Breath.

 

Honestly, I think it's best on Flamers, and I can't see another place I'd really want to use it, other than MAYBE fateweaver. Nurgle DPs with Wings might use it, too, but that's a build-specific thing. Anyone else that can reliably use it is likely to be in assault next turn. Most things that can get it don't want to be in assault.

[eyescrossed]

Am I the only person in the world who likes instruments?

[minigun762]

Am I the only person in the world who likes instruments?

 

Maybe I just don't fully appreciate them, but the scenario that it works for seems like its really unlikely for Daemons.

You're either overkilling the unit and running them down or just killing them outright, or you're going to lose horribly and have to take wounds.

I'm not sure when you're going to tie with another unit.

[eyescrossed]

Not if you carge a 5 man unit of bloodletters into 10 dire avengers with defend you don't <_<

[==Me==]

I don't have a problem with instruments, I just wouldn't go out of ==My== way to include them. It's a nice bonus for a very specific circumstance and I would only include them if it didn't detract from the rest of the army (points filler).

[Captain Malachi]

Not if you carge a 5 man unit of bloodletters into 10 dire avengers with defend you don't :P

Using a 5 man unit of bloodletters in the first place is pointless though, they won't kill enough if they do make it in to combat. If you use a normal sized squad and it gets shot down to 5 men, well, bad luck, still not worth an instrument.

[Raptor1313]

As Mal said...highly situational. Drawing combat is perfectly acceptable if it happens on your turn; if you kill them on the charge then you court a massive counter-fire. And it doesn't keep you from losing combat, so it doesn't do that much, all in all.

 

If we've covered the basic Gifts, I'll launch into Khorne gifts next...as I think we've all had a say on the basics.

 

Gifts of Khorne

Khornate gifts are either standard-issue to Khorne units, or can be acquired by Khorne units. Pretty self-explanatory.

 

Blessing of the Blood God

2+ save against wounds caused by force weapons or psychic powers.

 

Simply put, it's the best 5 points you can spend for the buck. It pretty much nullifies psychic powers that might outright kill you, like Mind War or a Grey Knight Grand Master's S6 force weapon.

 

If you can get it and have the points/gift slots, take it.

 

Death Strike

12" S7 AP2 shot. Considering that we have only average BS, and only a single shot? It's buying a plasma pistol that doesn't get hot and doesn't give you a spare attack.

 

If you're playing mono-Khorne, you might use it for skimmer-hunting if they move 12".

 

If you're not, leave it at home.

 

Fury of Khorne

Give someone Rending. Considering that most khorne units have power weapons, its real use is to up the armor-piercing power of Khorne units.

 

Unless you're playing mono-Khorne, you should have a better answer to the enemy's high armor values than this.

 

Hellblade

It's a power weapon. It's not a gift, per se, but most of Khorne's units wake up in the morning and grab a Hellblade and some Folgers and go about their day.

[minigun762]

Blessing of the Blood God

2+ save against wounds caused by force weapons or psychic powers.

 

Simply put, it's the best 5 points you can spend for the buck. It pretty much nullifies psychic powers that might outright kill you, like Mind War or a Grey Knight Grand Master's S6 force weapon.

 

If you can get it and have the points/gift slots, take it.

Agreed, this is so cheap you really have to ask yourself why you wouldn't put it on, especially on Heralds, Bloodthirsters etc.

 

Death Strike

12" S7 AP2 shot. Considering that we have only average BS, and only a single shot? It's buying a plasma pistol that doesn't get hot and doesn't give you a spare attack.

 

If you're playing mono-Khorne, you might use it for skimmer-hunting if they move 12".

 

If you're not, leave it at home.

Its your typical point dump, is it useful? Yeah sure its not bad. Is it needed? No, not really. Take it if you have points to burn but don't rely on it.

 

Fury of Khorne

Give someone Rending. Considering that most khorne units have power weapons, its real use is to up the armor-piercing power of Khorne units.

 

Unless you're playing mono-Khorne, you should have a better answer to the enemy's high armor values than this.

Only role this has is to give you some tiny chance of killing Dreadnoughts with your Bloodletters and Bloodcrushers. Its a total "what if" buy.

Hellblade

It's a power weapon. It's not a gift, per se, but most of Khorne's units wake up in the morning and grab a Hellblade and some Folgers and go about their day.

 

Lets face it, this is why you're playing Khorne, that and the red color

[Captain Malachi]

Well, nothing for me to say on Khorne's gifts, you've both summed it up pretty much. I personally won't ever take death strike, too little bang for your buck. Fury I might take occasonally, but it's on a case by case basis, and can't be done in an armoury section.

[Captain Malachi]

Hang on, just noticed something. Going back right to the start, Raptor, where does it say you don't get to attack in close combat is you use the boon of mutation power? It seems pretty clear to me you get to use the power and attack in CC, not one or the other.

[Raptor1313]

@Mal

 

Good catch.

 

You may use it in CC, and since it's a 'ranged attack', I assume you'd use it during your shooting phase with the way it's written.

 

Though the rest of the critique stands; it's short-ranged and anythign that can take it is better off being shooty (Tzeentch Heralds, Lord of Change) and further away, or it's got better things to shoot with. (...even Gaze has a better chance of killing something outside of the 1/6 chance you kill a carnifex within 6").

[eyescrossed]

Not if you carge a 5 man unit of bloodletters into 10 dire avengers with defend you don't :angry:

Using a 5 man unit of bloodletters in the first place is pointless though, they won't kill enough if they do make it in to combat. If you use a normal sized squad and it gets shot down to 5 men, well, bad luck, still not worth an instrument.

You do realise daemon units never make it into combat full strength?

Of course using a 5 man squad of them is pointless - it was a 10 man squad that got shot half to death.

[Raptor1313]

Even on the charge, five bloodletters are plenty nasty. 15 attacks, 10 hits, at least five wounds if we're talking Plague Marines, something like seven if not.

 

I'll still maintain that Instruments are filler. You'll wish you had one every few games, then forget about them.

[Captain Malachi]

Eyescrossed, please read the second sentence of my post. I realise daemon units don't make it in to combat full strength, but the simple fact is instruments are only very occasionally useful.

[eyescrossed]

Eyescrossed, please read the second sentence of my post. I realise daemon units don't make it in to combat full strength, but the simple fact is instruments are only very occasionally useful.

It's 5 points for something that can easily swing a game in your way.

You keep talking about them as if they cost 50 points.

[Captain Malachi]

If you draw with your bloodletters in the first place you're already losing badly, winning a single combat by 1 isn't going to swing a game your way. Now, it's 5 points, so if you have the points left over, go for it, what we're saying is it's too situational and doesn't have enough of an effect to be actually recommended over other upgrades for the same price.

[eyescrossed]

I always have 5 instruments over an icon.

I only have 2 icons max in an army (1 in each wave).

Also, taking 5 gives you a far greater chance of one of them being extremely useful.

[Captain Malachi]

You could say that about anything, of course taking 5 makes one of them more likely to be useful, but you've also payed 5 times as much for it.