eyescrossed Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 :( I've spent 25 points on 5 of something that may or may not work! :P Meh, icons are even less useful than instruments in my opinion, but then again, I also like coke with tomato sauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Triple post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Icons are useful in moderation since it helps to make up for a weakness in our army. Instruments do not make up for anything, all they do is make it so you last an extra turn in CC if you draw. I would much rather take cloud of flies, or blessing of the blood god etc. rather than an instrument. And if we're going to take five, I'd rather have an extra bloodletter, one of the above upgrades and a few points left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Homer Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Just a note on the Khorn rending- It should be mandatory on Bloodcrushers for 2 reasons. The first is the previously mentioned dreadnought insurance, the second reason is to play wound allocation games, the instrument for the same reason as mentioned, and finally the Icon. Particularly in large bloodcrusher with huge footprints, the Icon seems a very useful upgrade. EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 That will be discussed in the bloodcrusher entry, this is just a gerenal overview of the upgrades, specific cases will be discussed in the appropriate places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Just a note on the Khorn rending- It should be mandatory on Bloodcrushers for 2 reasons. The first is the previously mentioned dreadnought insurance, the second reason is to play wound allocation games, the instrument for the same reason as mentioned, and finally the Icon. Particularly in large bloodcrusher with huge footprints, the Icon seems a very useful upgrade. EH Someone still has to tell me exactly how that works. I get the concept, but the new Wound allocation trick is still beyond me at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 @Minigun, you can spread the wounds out so it takes more wounds to kill the squad by taking 4 bloodcrushers and giving them all upgrades, makes every model in the unit unique for wound allocation. Right, if we're done with Khornes upgrades, let's move on to Tzeentch. Bolt of Tzeentch: decentish range, AP1 and decent strenght makes it a pretty good tank buster, it's only one shot but most units that can take it have a decent BS or can get it really cheap, I for one am a big fan of this upgrade on everything except flamers (and sometimes horrors). Master of sorcery: Shooting an extra weapon is almost always a bonus, works best with we are legion though. On it's own it's not brilliant, as there are only two ranged weapons that work well together, breath and gaze, and the units that can take this often don't want to be close enough to breath the enemy. Soul devourer: Tzeentch's most useless upgrade, the prince and LoC already ignore armour saves, and the herald really does not want to be in CC. The instant death is nice, but almost all units that have multiple wounds either ignore instant death, have a stupidly high leadership, or are fearless. Leave this one at home, always. Warpfire: Like Khornes hellblade, this isn't a gift per se. Only horrors make good use of this gift, and it does enable them to put out a decent number of shots, but with their low BS it doesn't do as much damage as it could. Flamers have it as well, but they should be using breath most of the time anyway. We are legion: Now this upgrade I like, and almost always take it. Works well on heralds with master of sorcery and bolt, since they can blast at infantry and pop a tank in one turn. Also works well on the LoC for the same reason, but he doesn't need to buy anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Bolt of Tzeentch: decentish range, AP1 and decent strenght makes it a pretty good tank buster, it's only one shot but most units that can take it have a decent BS or can get it really cheap, I for one am a big fan of this upgrade on everything except flamers (and sometimes horrors). I think this is extra important because of the general lack of ranged anti-tank. The only other choice is Soulgrinders. Put them on Horrors and Heralds, Horrors because its so cheap and Heralds because they can shoot 2 targets. I'd almost consider this mandatory, especially in Mono-Tzeentch who can't rely on big bruisers for tank busting (as much). Master of sorcery:Shooting an extra weapon is almost always a bonus, works best with we are legion though. On it's own it's not brilliant, as there are only two ranged weapons that work well together, breath and gaze, and the units that can take this often don't want to be close enough to breath the enemy. Not very useful by itself, but awesome when combined with We Are Legion. I wouldn't take one without the other normally. Soul devourer:Tzeentch's most useless upgrade, the prince and LoC already ignore armour saves, and the herald really does not want to be in CC. The instant death is nice, but almost all units that have multiple wounds either ignore instant death, have a stupidly high leadership, or are fearless. Leave this one at home, always. Agreed, I'm not sure when it would be appropriate to take it. I say unless you have a very specific plan in mind, leave it. Warpfire:Like Khornes hellblade, this isn't a gift per se. Only horrors make good use of this gift, and it does enable them to put out a decent number of shots, but with their low BS it doesn't do as much damage as it could. Flamers have it as well, but they should be using breath most of the time anyway. Its more a comment about Horrors but since the two are combined at the hip, I'll say it here. Don't underestimate the shooting this can put out. Marines rapid fires a Bolter = 2 shots @ BS4 = 1.33 hits Horror shoots Warpfire = 3 shots @ BS3 = 1.5 hits A Horror has a better weapon, better AP and puts out more wounds than a Bolter Marine. To me, thats not shabby at all. This is your protection against Horde armies, shoot and fall backwards. We are legion:Now this upgrade I like, and almost always take it. Works well on heralds with master of sorcery and bolt, since they can blast at infantry and pop a tank in one turn. Also works well on the LoC for the same reason, but he doesn't need to buy anything else. See Master of Sorcery. Its a core ability of one of Tzeentch's best units, Heralds, Chariot, Bolt, Master, Legion for all purpose fast shooting. @Minigun, you can spread the wounds out so it takes more wounds to kill the squad by taking 4 bloodcrushers and giving them all upgrades, makes every model in the unit unique for wound allocation. Thats the concept, but I don't see how it would take anymore than 8 wounds to take them out anyway. But this is a side point and I don't want to derail the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 I'll see if I can clear up the point on wounds to avoid going off topic too much. Normally, you have to remove whole models, so for every two wounds you suffer you lose a bloodcrusher, when every model is unique you get to spread the wounds out, so it takes 5 wounds to make you remove a bloodcrusher, so the unit stays at full effectiveness for a lot longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I'll see if I can clear up the point on wounds to avoid going off topic too much. Normally, you have to remove whole models, so for every two wounds you suffer you lose a bloodcrusher, when every model is unique you get to spread the wounds out, so it takes 5 wounds to make you remove a bloodcrusher, so the unit stays at full effectiveness for a lot longer. So if you suffer 3 wounds, instead of removing 1 BC, you put 3 wounds on 3 BCs because they're all unique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Yep. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Homer Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 welcome to the wondeful world of wound allocation games...its gets worse with Nob Bikerz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Icons are useful in moderation since it helps to make up for a weakness in our army. Instruments do not make up for anything, all they do is make it so you last an extra turn in CC if you draw. I would much rather take cloud of flies, or blessing of the blood god etc. rather than an instrument. And if we're going to take five, I'd rather have an extra bloodletter, one of the above upgrades and a few points left over. Every time except once have my CC opponents have run away in CC after forcing the loss by 1 with the Instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Eyescrossed, when I write up this section of the review, I will point out that they can be useful, but I'm not going to say take them over other, better upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I'm just sayin' ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Every time except once have my CC opponents have run away in CC after forcing the loss by 1 with the Instrument. That's not a good thing. If they're running, it means your unit is caught out in the open and your enemy will be all to happy to blow them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Anyone else got anything to say on Tzeentch's gifts or can we move on to Slaanesh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Anyone else got anything to say on Tzeentch's gifts or can we move on to Slaanesh? move on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well if you insist <_< Aura of aquiescence: Despite from being a pain in the ass to spell, I love this upgrade, offensive and defensive grenades on high intiative units? What's not to love? Pavane: Honestly, I'm not a fan. Only the Masque can actually do anything with this power as all others should be fleeting or shooting, and the Masque seems like a way too expensive kill point to me. (We'll discuss this in her entry, not here) Rending claws: Another upgrade in name only, comes as standard on most of Slaanesh's troops, and it's pretty good, rending makes them more effective against tanks than other units in CC, which is a plus. Soporific musk: Pretty good, hit and run is always nice to have as an option, and being able to flee from those thunder hammer armed termies is always a good thing. Transfixing gaze: Usually not worth it. Only worth taking on the keeper since it can help to limit the amount of fist attacks coming your way, but this is a special case. However, it's worth noting that since it doesn't say "to a minimum of one", if you can get several models with this upgrade in combat you can theoretically completely take away the fist threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well if you insist :) Aura of aquiescence: Despite from being a pain in the ass to spell, I love this upgrade, offensive and defensive grenades on high intiative units? What's not to love? Pavane: Honestly, I'm not a fan. Only the Masque can actually do anything with this power as all others should be fleeting or shooting, and the Masque seems like a way too expensive kill point to me. (We'll discuss this in her entry, not here) Rending claws: Another upgrade in name only, comes as standard on most of Slaanesh's troops, and it's pretty good, rending makes them more effective against tanks than other units in CC, which is a plus. Soporific musk: Pretty good, hit and run is always nice to have as an option, and being able to flee from those thunder hammer armed termies is always a good thing. Transfixing gaze: Usually not worth it. Only worth taking on the keeper since it can help to limit the amount of fist attacks coming your way, but this is a special case. However, it's worth noting that since it doesn't say "to a minimum of one", if you can get several models with this upgrade in combat you can theoretically completely take away the fist threat. I agree with most everything there. Musk is probably the ability that you need to decide whether or not its worth it. Its not a horribly expensive upgrade so I'd expect it to be fairly common, as it gives you another option. I consider Aura to be mandatory. Most units get it anyway but if you can buy it, you should. Same as Cloud of Flies, its both offensive and defensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 As a big fan of Pavane, I'll do ==My== part. Pavane of Slaanesh is one of the best gifts you can give a Slaaneshi unit. The ability to move your opponent's models is absolutely HUGE, as can be seen by the popularity of Lash. Pavane isn't nearly as awesome as Lash, but still extremely useful. D6" may not seem like much, but it can be the difference between hurting a unit and crippling it with templates and blasts, getting a charge off or getting blown to bits, and victory or defeat from objectives. It's biggest downside is rolling to hit, so you really can't rely on it unless you've got DPs, the Masque, or Blue Scribes, ie high BS and/or multiple uses per turn. I would consider it negociable on Keepers and Heralds due to their average BS, but if you have the points Pavane will deliver. It gives other units fleet by moving enemies closer, clumps them together for templates and blasts, and a boat load of other situational advantages. It's flexibility, pure and simple, the ability to do anything with anyone. I'd also consider Musk and Aura essential on any Slaanesh unit. Musk for the ping pong ball trick and Aura for keeping that high I useful at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I think the Tzeentch gifts were pretty much covered well enough. Slaanesh.... Musk is defintiely worth mentioning for its ability to increase your mobility. If you bring something that can lock down units in CC (Nurgle troops come to mind, as do Soul Grinders) then you can move, charge, fight, ride out another round of assault, then break away, move, then assault again. Do the math on it; it's a lot. 6" move, Fleet, at least 6" assault, then hit 'n' run, then move, fleet, assault again. For Pavane: Pavane also gets you a themed Template build. Even if it's one to six inches, it can still get a group hug going, which just helps Soul Grinders and Ku'Gath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 As a big fan of Pavane, I'll do ==My== part. Pavane of Slaanesh is one of the best gifts you can give a Slaaneshi unit. The ability to move your opponent's models is absolutely HUGE, as can be seen by the popularity of Lash. Pavane isn't nearly as awesome as Lash, but still extremely useful. D6" may not seem like much, but it can be the difference between hurting a unit and crippling it with templates and blasts, getting a charge off or getting blown to bits, and victory or defeat from objectives. It's biggest downside is rolling to hit, so you really can't rely on it unless you've got DPs, the Masque, or Blue Scribes, ie high BS and/or multiple uses per turn. I would consider it negociable on Keepers and Heralds due to their average BS, but if you have the points Pavane will deliver. It gives other units fleet by moving enemies closer, clumps them together for templates and blasts, and a boat load of other situational advantages. It's flexibility, pure and simple, the ability to do anything with anyone. I agree! Pavane has actually won me a few games. Ooooh! Could you please do Elites after this? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 We've still got special HQs to go through (Ku'Gath, Skarbrand, and Fateweaver). I'd suspect Elites would be next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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