Heresy Era Imperial Fists

[Ufthak]

Hi all.

 

I'm new on B&C, hope I got this new topic right and all...

I'm about to start a small Imperial Fists force. It would be a heresy era army set at the time of the siege of Terra. Now, I'm somewhat a perfectionist and want to give the Marines a really good, heresy-era look. I've got a general idea what I want to do, but I still have quite a few questions, and I'm hoping some of you couls help me along.

 

Firstly, my ideas:

What I want to do is 1-2 tactical squads, a termie squad, and possibly a veteran squad. I want them to look good and fit into the background of the Heresy, not neccessarily work on the tabletop. I chose the Fists because I like yellow (unlike the rest of the world) and love the background to the Legion. I also like Dorn, and I also like the fact the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars are descended from the Imperial Fists - two chapters I love :-)

I was thinking of equipping my marines with the armour patterns II-VI. I'll have a sergeant or two sporting the ancient MkII Crusader armour, the veterans and possibly another sarge with the MkIII Iron (my favourite), 6 of the marines in the first tactical squad with MkIV Maximus armour (the fists being near Terra they would have been extensively equipped with this new, good pattern) and 6 in the second squad with MkVI Corvus armour (What with the Corvus being issued in the final days before the siege, I doubt anyone save the fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars had large numbers of them). Any remaining marines would have the MkV Heresy (looking forward to playing about with that one). No marines'll have the boring random MkVII. The termies are all gonna have a Cataphracti (dunno if this is the official name for it...I mean the armour with the immense double shoulder pads and leather bands)-type armour, though I'm gonna use the beautiful Chaos Warrior heads on them.

 

Now, my questions:

 

1) The Bolter. Which Bolter patterns would the Legion be carrying at the siege of Terra? Would the Goodwyn pattern already be in use? Or should I use 2nd Edition Bolters instead? Or maybe both?

2) Organisation. Has anyone got any idea how the fists were organised during the heresy? Did they have their own formations, ranks? Did they have tactical/devastator/assault squads, or did they have a different organisation?

3) Equipment. Which weapons and armour would the fists favour? Them being experts at siege warfare I would expect them to be using heavy weapons (Autocannon, heavy Bolter...) and heavy armour (Tactical Dreadnought and MkIII Iron armour) as well as teleporters (for termies) and Jump Packs (though these were rare during the heresy). What do you think?

4) Now, this last question has been discussed here before, but I'm sorry I still have to ask it: Markings and Insignia. Can anyone give me an idea how to paint my fists' Company, Squad, rank and status markings?

- How would the fists mark their Companies? I've heard people using the standard schemes that the Codex Astartes offers, but since that wasn't in existence at the time, they wouldn't have it.

- Same goes for Squad markings...

- ...and Veterans. Concerning veterans and termies I've heard all sorts of things: That their armour is simply yellow like the rest of the Legion, just with a red skull on the forehead, that their helmets are red, that their helmts are white (more Codex Astartes which wouldn't work during the heresy, in my opinion), that their helemts are yellow with a red stripe down the middle, that their helmets (in particular, for sergeants) are red with a white stripe down the middle (Same as with Ultramarines...Codex Astartes...), and even that their helmets are blue or black. Can ANYONE help me here?

 

Alright...stop now...getting too long...

 

Hope anyone can help me...any ideas could be of help, folks :-)

 

--Ufthak--

[Pacific81]

Hi, let me be the first to say welcome to the forum! And WHAT a first post! I will do my best to answer all of these questions *clicks fingers*

 

Firstly, my ideas:

What I want to do is 1-2 tactical squads, a termie squad, and possibly a veteran squad. I want them to look good and fit into the background of the Heresy, not neccessarily work on the tabletop. I chose the Fists because I like yellow (unlike the rest of the world) and love the background to the Legion. I also like Dorn, and I also like the fact the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars are descended from the Imperial Fists - two chapters I love :-)

I was thinking of equipping my marines with the armour patterns II-VI. I'll have a sergeant or two sporting the ancient MkII Crusader armour, the veterans and possibly another sarge with the MkIII Iron (my favourite), 6 of the marines in the first tactical squad with MkIV Maximus armour (the fists being near Terra they would have been extensively equipped with this new, good pattern) and 6 in the second squad with MkVI Corvus armour (What with the Corvus being issued in the final days before the siege, I doubt anyone save the fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars had large numbers of them). Any remaining marines would have the MkV Heresy (looking forward to playing about with that one). No marines'll have the boring random MkVII. The termies are all gonna have a Cataphracti (dunno if this is the official name for it...I mean the armour with the immense double shoulder pads and leather bands)-type armour, though I'm gonna use the beautiful Chaos Warrior heads on them.

 

First of all, perhaps your best bet will be to get some decent source material for your work. This forum is a great place to start, as well as the galleries and 'Heresy-era showcase' thread at the top of this forum section. Its important to acknowledge though, that no two pre-heresy armies are the same, and there is a great deal more room for interpretation and initiative than many other armies (and for alot of people this is the great attraction!) The Horus heresy book range are a great source of info (although the Imp. Fists haven't had much of a showing yet, it will get you in the mood!), but perhaps the most influential are the Collected Visions artbooks. These are available as a compilation from GW's own website (Click here) and you might also be able to get them in the original, seperate version from ebay (expect to pay more for these though).

1) The Bolter. Which Bolter patterns would the Legion be carrying at the siege of Terra? Would the Goodwyn pattern already be in use? Or should I use 2nd Edition Bolters instead? Or maybe both?

 

There doesn't seem to be any hard or fast rule with this - the 2nd edition seems to be popular, but alot of the artwork in collected visions shows both the original RT style bolter, and also the current plastic variety. Personally, I would go with whichever you prefer the look of.

2) Organisation. Has anyone got any idea how the fists were organised during the heresy? Did they have their own formations, ranks? Did they have tactical/devastator/assault squads, or did they have a different organisation?

 

Perhaps the biggest difference between the Legions of the Great Crusade and the current Chapters of 40k involves both their size and the manner in which battles were fought. The legions were more like self-contained armies in their own right, rather than the surgical strike we know them as today. So, as well as utilising a 'spearhead' attack (similar in its manner to 40k marine operations), you had all the usual tactical, devestator and assault 'squads' (with the word 'cohort' sometimes used instead, as well as different words for different squad roles). As well as these you had 'recon' squads, artillery and garrison marines, with a greater variety of wargear. Squads were sometimes 20 men, and there were no hard and fast rules for the sizes of companies. I don't believe any specific names have been mentioned yet for the Imperial Fists, other than perhaps 'phalanx' for some of their assault formations.

 

3) Equipment. Which weapons and armour would the fists favour? Them being experts at siege warfare I would expect them to be using heavy weapons (Autocannon, heavy Bolter...) and heavy armour (Tactical Dreadnought and MkIII Iron armour) as well as teleporters (for termies) and Jump Packs (though these were rare during the heresy). What do you think?

 

I think you are correct with this - perhaps some form of artillery, and the super-heavy 'Felblade' (the pre-heresy variant of the Baneblade). Jump packs were indeed rare during the heresy, and looked somewhat different to their 40k counterparts.

 

4) Now, this last question has been discussed here before, but I'm sorry I still have to ask it: Markings and Insignia. Can anyone give me an idea how to paint my fists' Company, Squad, rank and status markings?

- How would the fists mark their Companies? I've heard people using the standard schemes that the Codex Astartes offers, but since that wasn't in existence at the time, they wouldn't have it.

- Same goes for Squad markings...

- ...and Veterans. Concerning veterans and termies I've heard all sorts of things: That their armour is simply yellow like the rest of the Legion, just with a red skull on the forehead, that their helmets are red, that their helmts are white (more Codex Astartes which wouldn't work during the heresy, in my opinion), that their helemts are yellow with a red stripe down the middle, that their helmets (in particular, for sergeants) are red with a white stripe down the middle (Same as with Ultramarines...Codex Astartes...), and even that their helmets are blue or black. Can ANYONE help me here?

 

You know I mentioned about the lack of reference material giving you more free reign with modelling/painting ideas? Well, this is the flip side of the coin ;) There is no Codex Astartes with specific colour schemes and markings for every squad within every company. What we have is quite limited. These are the pictures from the index astartes book:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Pacific81/w40kiaifm1gt3.jpg

 

There is a great example of a sergeant in the 'pre-heresy showcase' section of the forum, which shows him with a red helmet. However, like you say, there is no 'codex astartes' - certainly if some of the other legions are anything to go by, there is a certain amount of variety between companies even within the same legions, carrying different squad markings etc. At present, with no information to the contrary (although there is certain to be a Horus Heresy book which deals with the Imperial Fists, when we eventually get to the defence of the palace) I would go with what you have posted - or come up with your own scheme and planning, and try it out on a few test minis.

 

Well, I hope this helps! I have to say its a great idea to go for the Imperial Fists - the loyalists are quite under-represented when compared to the traitor legions, and in any case you have the opportunity here to create a truly unique army! I would just recommend reading as much as you can, and have a real trawl of the net for inspiration. There are some other websites here you might find helpful:

 

thegreatcrusade.co.uk

tempusfugitives.co.uk (who are organising a pre-heresy event in Nottingham in a few months, and have created a very interesting rules set)

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com (who have also have a pre-heresy rules set, with details of special rules and formations etc.)

 

Looking forward to see what you can come up with! :)

[Vodunius]

It should be noted that the Codex Astartes didn't appear out of thin air and the end of the Heresy, almost everything in it had been tried and tested beforehand - theres no reason the "standard" markings post-heresy markings might not have been in use by multiple Legions during the Heresy or even before. (in fact IA articles showed "codex" tactical arrows on pre-heresy marines from 8 Legions)

[Sons of Horus]

they should be in Mk. V armour i think. give them a lot of studs all over their armour.

[Ufthak]

Hi all!

 

Thank you very much for your swift responses, in particular Pacific81! Unfortunately, I have done my homework...I've searched the net far and wide (in particular this site and the bell of lost souls, but also many others) as well as any books I could find, save the Horus Heresy series which I have yet to read once I'm done with gaunts Ghosts :-) Unluckily the Fists don't feature much anywhere, and I couldn't really find anything specific which helps me along a lot. I can guess a lot...as concerning their equipment, their tactics and so on, but so much is still shrouded.

 

Hm...well, what I guess I'll do is give them the power armour as mentioned in my first post (predominantly MkIV and MkVI, plus some MkV, and here and there some MkII and MkIII), some of the old 2nd Edition Bolters as well as Goodwyn Bolters, and group them in 2 10-man tactical Squads, a 5-man veteran squad, and a 5-man termie squad. Possibly a couple of tactical marines'll have autocannons or rocket launchers, maybe flamers (as the fists are experts at urban warfare). The termies'll have the twinlinked bolters and maybe two Reaper Autocannons (or a heavy flamer).

Concerning colour schemes I'm not entirely sure what to do. What colour should I do the trim? Red or Black goes well with the fists, but if they're members of the 1st (Veteran?) Company, as the termies and vets would probably be, then what colour would they have? Plus, what colour would their helmets be? Since white is Codex Astartes standard, they (probably) wouldn't have it. I like the idea of red or black helmets...maybe I'll go down that road.

 

What do you think?

 

In any case, at the moment I'm still working on getting the power armour patterns right and in large numbers without going bankrupt; so work'll be a little slow. Hope I can post first pictures by March, though. Well, we'll see...

 

Oh, and @Pacific81:

I've already got the Heresy Rules from Bell of Lost Souls :-) Great Stuff!!! But thanks for the tip anyway

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

Termies and vets didn't just belong to the first company, all companies had them. And Mk II/III were phased out by the end of the crusade, most, if not all, legions were in mkIV at that point. If you're going for seige-time fists, I'd suggest Mk V, with some Mk VI and MkIV, if you want to be accurate. For bolters, a lot of people move the mag and foregrip on the current ones.

[Vodunius]

And Mk II/III were phased out by the end of the crusade, most, if not all, legions were in mkIV at that point.

 

That is correct, however the reason that MkV+ exists is because once the heresy erupted the loyalist quickly ran out of spare parts for their MkIV and were forced to start re-equipping marines with MkII & III - so some MkII & III wouldn't be out of the question.

[Pacific81]

Hmm.. about the latest forms of armour, thats not strictly true. The mk4 armour was very hard to maintain, and used a number of exotic materials which were very hard to source away from a forge world - this was the reason for the mkV (which was a modofied extension of the mk3 armour) and mk6 (which was designed specifically so that other pieces from older armour could be retro-fitted).

 

The positions of the legions in relation to the great crusade also effected what armour they could lay claim to (how often they could get resupplied etc) - but also the ethos of the legion. The fearsome look of the Mk3 as well as its very thick frontal plate made it favoured in assaults, so it was quite popular with the Death Guard, World Eaters and some others even when other armour was available (Not sure about the Imp Fists though! Although the few photos that do exist look like mk3). I don't believe the mk5 or mk6 were in significant use until fairly close to the end of the Great Crusade (the Ultramarine captain in Battle for the Abyss being the first example we have read about)

 

Unfortunately, there is no really cheap way of doing the older marks. You could try the 'Red scorpion veteran upgrade pack' from Forgeworld for the MK4, and beserker helms with the bunny ears shaved off for the mk3 (which in itself is expensive - you will need to buy the beserker box set, or good luck getting the helms from a bits website!)

 

As for colours, Ufthak, I would paint up a couple of test minis with different schemes and see how they look. If you like, go one step further and organise individual company/squad markings and symbols. If this is something you can carry throughout your army it should look pretty effective!

[Ufthak]

Hm...

As for the armour variants, I've given it a lot of thought. I like all of them save the MkI and MkVII, but most of all the MkIII and the MkVI. Now, the Fists were always near Terra in the later half of the Crusade, plus they were favoured by the Emperor (being his bodyguard and all), which means they would have had easier (!) access to newer armour variants; this means they would have been extenseively been supplied with first MkIVs and later MkVIs, with fewer MkVs. On the other hand, them being a somewhat aloof and perhaps conservative Legion means they could have taken pride in their old equipment and thus saved as much as possible of it. Plus, they were siege and urban warfare experts - which means close quarter fighting and frontal assaults - so the MkIII, with its enhanced frontal protection, would have come in handy and been used a lot (or at least more than in other Legions).

Additionally, one must never forget that older armour variants were sometimes updated and adapted to changing circumstances - indeed, the MKIII and MkIV armour are still in use in the 40th Millenium, though usually modified and adapted.

 

In summa, for myself I conclude that the fists would be using MKIVs and MkVIs a lot, with veterans and assault units having the MKIII, some veteran sergeants perhaps the MkII, and some standard marines the MKV (or some variant of it).

 

 

 

A further question just came to my mind concerning painting:

Me not being a particular fan of endless highlighting tend to use the new washes a lot. Now, I'd like my fists to look a bit worn and dirty (having been fighting on Mars before the siege of Terra). Should I use Badab Black as a wash for the yellow or rather some form of brown (such as Ogryn Flesh)? With Black they'd look like they had a film of dirt all over them and make them look greyer. Brown, on the other hand, works well with yellow.

What do you recommend?

 

P.S.: @Pacific81: I have found a potential way of cheaply getting my hands on good, pre-heresy armour, but its not exactly legal and a hell of a lot of work. I'm trying around a bit at the moment, see what comes out :-)

[Vodunius]

MkIII never made much sense to me for assault units outside of boarding actions, as they are by far the most likely to wind up taking shots from behind (either during a swirling melee, or having the whole unit surrounded) where the reduced rear armour could cost them their lives, I've always thought it made most sense for devastators and support weapon crews.

[Ufthak]

Hm...well, since it is probably the armour with the heaviest burden (weightwise), I simply can't imagine Devastators using it, considerung the fact they already have to manhandle massive heavy bolters and the like. The reduced rear armour doesn't really seem like a big problem to me, since most of the back is covered by the power pack; and if the power pack gets damaged, any armour is prone to failure, not just the MkIII. Plus, I think that the chances of being shot at from behind are slimmer during a frontal assault than during a covert operation, a deep strike or a defence.

 

Sorry if I sound like know-it-all...just speaking my mind...

[Pacific81]

MkIII never made much sense to me for assault units outside of boarding actions, as they are by far the most likely to wind up taking shots from behind (either during a swirling melee, or having the whole unit surrounded) where the reduced rear armour could cost them their lives, I've always thought it made most sense for devastators and support weapon crews.

 

Well yes, but you have to think that not just boarding actions, but any kind of assault into an enclosed environment will make full use of massive frontal armour - it could be down the corridors of a ship or through the wall of a building etc. Its similar to the methodology that goes into the design of modern day tanks and armour - the heaviest is always at the front - the odds of you being shot in the back are small enough that they don't offset the massive disadvantage from having to lug around all the extra weight, and the loss of manouverability.

 

Ufthak - well really the weight of a devestators equipment shouldn't matter as they have suspensors, a great plot device to explain how (even someone like a marine) is able to carry half a ton of weaponry, be manouverable to aim and fire it, and not be blown off into the distance by the recoil. Although its a good few editions now since I have read about this technology, it hasn't been specifically retconned so *shrug* :tu:

 

re. your choice of armour - to be honest mate, in the abscence of any other information, I would go with whatever you're comfortable with and enjoy modelling/painting! As an example regarding the death guard, I've seen them done in many ways. The BoLS website has 1 which is supposed to be latter Great Crusade/Horus Heresy and has them virtually all in mk4 armour, another on the Great Crusade website which has nearly all scratch-built mk2 and mk3 armour, with the older style bolters and backpacks. There is even 1 which is a 'Dusk Raiders' legion (the name of the Death guard during the unification wars, prior to their joining with Mortarion) and they are almost entirely mk2 and 'articifer' model armours, with every armour a bespoke piece! What I'm trying to say is that there is a great deal of scope for creating the type of army you envisage - not only in terms of time frame (the unification war carrying on 300 years to the heresy), but also the location of your legion. Although some of the Imperial Fists did indeed take part in the fortification of earth, there were other parts of the legion scattered throughout the galaxy as parts of various expiditions and with various tasks. There is no way that GW will ever describe the events of the crusade in their entirety, so you have a massive space for artists perogative :P

[Ufthak]

@Pacific81:

Thanks :tu: yep, I guess that's what I'll do. I bought myself the Collected Visions of the Heresy from my local shop today (though I know the book almost by heart already :P ) and checked it for pics of the fists - the're precious few, but in virtually all of them they appear to be wearing a MkIII or a MkIII/V hybrid. But let's be frank, if one looks at the hundreds of pictures in the collected visions, you'll notice that the marines on the pics are wearing hybrids of various armour patterns (in particular mixtures between MkII, MkIII, MkIV and MkV), plus every legion seems to like to individualise their armour - especially legions like the thousand sons (strange arcane gold masks on the front of their helmets), the World Eaters (helmets with wide breather pieces shaped like gaping mouths), the Iron hands (modified armour to fit their augmentations) etc. So really, there probably aren't any fixed rules anyway...just "guidelines" :) That doesn't necessarily make the job easier for me...I tend to work better with fixed rules which i can follow to perfection. Oh well...let's see what comes out in the end.

 

But thanks a lot for your help, guys! I'll be posting pics as soon as I have something!

 

Oh, and if anyone has any ideas or tips, just post them here...I'd be happy to hear :-)

[Ufthak]

Oh, two more things...

 

1) I found the following on a Warseer forum:

 

Company Insignia, Battle-Companies of the Imperial Fists-

 

1st- White cross, yellow feild

2nd- Halved vertically, white and yellow

3rd- Diagonal stripe, red, yellow field

4th- Halved horizontally, yellow and green

5th- Quartered, white and black

 

Can anyone tell me where this is from?

 

2)Another question: By the time of the siege of Terra, what would Tactical Dreadnought armour look like? I guess most termies would still be using Cataphractii armour, but the Collected Visions contain a picture of a Fist termie in 40K termie armour (Mk4). Any ideas?

[Pacific81]

Hehe yes that old chestnut.

 

That picture of the imp. fist terminator in 40k-era terminator armour has caused more than its fair share of discussion I can tell you.

 

The general consensus is that of the 'purple ultramarine' i.e. there are a couple of obvious mistakes in Collected visions , where one of the artists has perhaps not understood his brief correctly. I'm not one of those who say out-and-out that its wrong (I would never say that about anything concerning the heresy, the whole period is shrouded in the loss of time), but consider that one of the main ways you can give character to your army, and confirm that its pre-heresy is with creation of terminators - very few things say pre-heresy more than those great wide Cataphracti shoulder pads and a top-knot :)

 

There are numerous ways of modelling these, ranging from dreadnought shin guards as the shoulder pads (v. expensive unless you have a bunch of dreadnoughts you dont mind canibalizing!), using card cutout, Tamiya 1/32 scale oil drums, and some specialist sellers (I used the 'sci-fi shoulder pads' from wookiehole.com, although he doesnt seem to have them on the website at the moment).

 

Re. your first question, I'm pretty sure that most of the detailed rank and insignia for the Imp. Fists has been fan created - I certainly haven't read anything with that level of detail in it (although I stand to be corrected on this, I'm reasonably certain - even concerning the 'best covered' of legions the Luna Wolves, there is heated discussion over the size of a company :( ). But, that seems as good an idea as any for insignia, and if like you say you think you'll benefit from having clear objectives with your painting and organisation then I would say go for it!

 

Glad you are enjoying Collected Visions though, its an awesome book :tu:

[Vodunius]

Company Insignia, Battle-Companies of the Imperial Fists-

 

Can anyone tell me where this is from?

 

Those are the standard Codex company heraldries with a few colour changes (2nd company having a white stripe instead of yellow for obvious reasons, no idea why 5th has white instead of yellow tho)

 

I agree Cataphract suits are the bees knees for pre-heresy, but since the modern terminator suits are in standard use by traitors in M41 I would assume they did replace the cataphracts during the heresy (for that matter we know that Terminator development was under way when the Heresy broke out, because the Mk5 helmet was based on a design intended for Terminator armour)

[Ufthak]

Hm...concerning the colour scheme and the markings I think I'll have to search the net a bit more...maybe I'll find some more hints...

 

Concerning the termies:

Since I really like the Cataphractii armour anyway, I think that's what I'll do. On the other hand, what with termies being so rare and no armour suit looking the same, it would somehow be cool to have the sergeant wear a more modern pattern of suit.

 

@Vodunius:

Just because the Chaos termies are wearing Mk4 doesn't necessarily mean it existed during the heresy...there are Chaos foundries and forge worlds, after all; plus, the heretical marines would probably scavenge any tactical dreadnought armour they could find. This makes it hardly surprising if they have equipment equal to Imperial Marines in the 40th Millenium. After all, Chaos Space Marines also use the Goodwyn Pattern bolter...

[Pacific81]

Yes, and also Horus had control of the forges of Mars and some others just as the Heresy started, meaning that the legions loyal to him had the latest armour and equipment at the expense of the loyalists..

[Ufthak]

But talking of terminators, would the VERY strange Mk2 type tactical dreadnought armour even have been used? (I mean the one with those MASSIVE round shoulderpads, of which only one model exists)? And what about the Mk3 (looks a bit like the old dreadnoughts, pretty ugly...)? Would these even have been in use?

 

Another question:

Are those pretty marine helmets in the Black Templars upgrade pack actually Pre-Heresy (disounting the MkIV armour in the set)? I see people using them a lot for their Pre-Heresy armies, but somehow I'm not sure...aren't they just variants of the MkVII helmet? They're identical save for the face-piece...

[Vodunius]

Cant speak for old terminators, except that the Mk1 did appear in a single heresy or scouring era pic:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/Mk1.jpg

 

As for the knightly helmets from the BT sprue - they certainly arent MkII or III, but some versions of MkIV are identical to MkVII save for the faceplate, so you could argue its a variant of MkIV rather than MkVII.

[Pacific81]

Yes I think they are meant to be one variation of the mk4 helmet design. Certainly, they look very similar to the original metal mk4 (the one in the 'armour through the ages' set), and the Forge World varient. Bare in mind that there were always variations on a theme in any case (depending on the world which they were produced, and even within as armour was constantly being updated/changed). I know what you mean about it looking similar in shape though, no doubt the mold was made using the same helmet as a base! :D )

 

We think mk4 was in pretty heavy use - not only from the artwork in collected visions but also the original (RT era) formative armour article as found in the 40k compilation book which writes about it being "designed to tbe the ultimate and final type of space marine armour, able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions.." and "many of the marines armies were entirely or partially re-equipped". So, alot of this depends on when you want your pre-heresy army set, as it was only towards the end of the great crusade that the use of mk4 became wholesale.

 

Re. the old 'turtle' style terminator armour (you can find a load of them on this webpage), essentially termainator armour was first adapted from suits used for highly dangerous mining or industrial tasks. By the time we reach the great crusade I believe the vast amount of this had been heavily adapted for use in combat situations, and it had gone through a number of steps before reaching this. I guess there could be a few examples still around, hidden in the bottom of the Imperial Fists bitsbox, but I shouldn't think these would be used when there were so many superior examples available. Maybe an expidition during the early part of the crusade, and was far flung from any supply or armour updates my use them?

[Ufthak]

Just wondering which Termie armour was in use...alright then, only cataphractii.

 

Yes, the collected visions feature a lot of MkIV armour, especially with the Emperor's children, the Thousand Sons and the Sons of Horus. I guess I'll have a fair few in my force...

[Cornelias]

in the recently release mechanicum sigismund "liberated" a whole load of newly manufactured armour and weapons before the titan legions tore the place apart, so i'd say mark 4 and mark 5 mostly :D

[Pacific81]

But, like I said, a lot of it depends on what era you are modelling your pre-heresy force. Pre-heresy/great crusade is not like the year 40,000 where very little or nothing has changed over 5000 years. If you think about it, the 200 years+ between the unification wars and the great crusade saw the development of 6 different types of armour (with all the variations inbetween) as well as other more specialist armours (such as terminator/dreadnought). So mk4/5/6 is great for the end of the crusade, but an earlier crusade force would have mk2 or mk3. I have even seen a great example of a mk1 thunder-armour equipped luna wolves squad!

 

So, I would go with the look of armour you prefer - there is always a way to justify it (apart perhaps from mk7 :D ), rather than thinking you have to make mk4 because there is a lot of it in Collected Visions.

[Ufthak]

The Collected visions state that Rogal Dorn's 4 Veteran Companies sent to Mars to quell the rebellion took as much of the new armour with them as they could - MkV and MkVI armour, "tens of thousands of suits". Given that the Fists were a small legion (probably under 100,000 warriors) they could have equipped half the legion with the new suits or upgraded old suits with new MkV pieces...