Enough with the power gaming!

[Godfrey]

I just love playing with dudes in rhinos.

 

Something about playing a ton of rhinos and troops makes me happy.

[Artangel]

I just played a 1000 point game against the new IG and I used a *gasp* Defiler!

 

Many people think that Defilers are to weak to be any real threat in games, but not only did he live to the end of the game, he was one of the reasons I WON! I love the model and I'm planning on taking 3 for tourny in a few weeks.

I too love Defilers. I normally run mine with 4 CCWs and the Battle Cannon. Great in combat, and can lob shells at the enemy.

 

That's the only way to run them :) . I really think that they are under-rated. Battle cannon + assault monster? Sounds like fun.

 

LOL aye same here I took 3 last week to fight Nids all with 4 CC weapons. The look on the Carnifex face as I pulled it's arms and legs off and beat it to death with the wet end's was priceless:).

 

Defilers Rule and I just cant help havinf a soft spot for them:).

[Fintan]

I personally believe that people who claim that X build is a "noob" army and that Space Marines can only use two builds and be successful are talking a load of rubbish. Yes, some armies are obviously very weak but then, not everyone goes to tournaments where everyone seems to have forgotten that they're playing with toy guns, not real ones.

 

Also Godfrey, I hear that, watching tons of tactical squads pouring out of their Rhinos and setting up an advanced firing line before advancing mercilessly is just.... *Wide grin*.

 

I heartily approve of lists that don't conform to the norm, my local GW is full of guys who have no intention of rules lawyering, power-gaming or min/maxing and it's probably the reason I absolutely love spending my weekends there! Each battle is different, each army completely unpredictable ( Minus SM armies with a Landraider, honestly, EVERYONE has one of these apart from me), just like 40k should be.

 

I think you should could to England, Jeske, so we can give you a lesson in how 40k is meant to be played. :)

[the jeske]

I think you should could to England, Jeske, so we can give you a lesson in how 40k is meant to be played

years , ago when I was still a student and we were starting to work with GW [translation of books] my friend got disqualified in a GT for having 2ed ork armed with bolters and not shoots like they should be in 3ed . yeah I more or less know how friendlly is the UK setting to people not from UK.

 

I was one of the not so few people who started the hobby in eastern europe . The only way w40k should be played is true to the legal rules . And thats all . I didnt say I like the way codexs or armies look right now [in fact if you remembered right me and refuse where two of the most people who disliked the new chaos dex the most]. But being someone who plays for more then 20 years , I tell you that from my xp , I have seen more people quit or switch to other games , because they army didnt work , then because they had to play against good builds . Sure by UK standards even 12 year olds here are power gamers [because we dont play with sub par lists ] , but we have very good gamers , no whiners , a strickt code of game play and yes we do have fun when playing . I dont know what you mean by unpredictable , because all chaos armies to me look the same . even the weaker builds [like nm water warrior] have the same game play as a BL clone army . Sad , but true .

 

 

 

I personally believe that people who claim that X build is a "noob" army and that Space Marines can only use two builds and be successful are talking a load of rubbish.

rhino rush and LR rush whats the third working working csm build , that are wide played? chaoszylla or NM water warrior?

[Lynnean]

they (and me) just want to see the fun of playing. the lists aren't very important, as long as you like to play, and you like your army. even with the most-wrong list there is, you can have loads of fun. and that's what an Hobby is all about.

[daemon*hunter]

As you may guess from my sig, i love defilers :lol:

Haven't got one yet though, £8 a week doesn't get much warhammer :D...

I should sell my woodies + brets...

[SquirrelKing]

As you may guess from my sig, i love defilers ;)

Haven't got one yet though, £8 a week doesn't get much warhammer :(...

I should sell my woodies + brets...

 

Well, when you do get one, you'll see they are a blast to put together and paint. I think they're the models I most enjoyed painting (nice big details!). They also look great on the battlefield and are huge!

[Moress]

As you may guess from my sig, i love defilers :wallbash:

Haven't got one yet though, £8 a week doesn't get much warhammer B)...

I should sell my woodies + brets...

 

Well, when you do get one, you'll see they are a blast to put together and paint. I think they're the models I most enjoyed painting (nice big details!). They also look great on the battlefield and are huge!

 

To each of us his own I suppose :) , I personally hated painting my Defiler, and the legs kept bothering me so much i eventually just glued the entire damn thing together, but I absolutely love the model and it performs well for me. I bought two Vindies the other day and am in the process of painting them, but if I didn't play Iron Warriors and have this impulse to by anything with huge guns (I also like having more options available for when I want to build different lists), I would have bought another Defiler instead because I love the damn thing so much (Even though it's a pain in the arse to get it battlefield ready :P ).

 

For Chaos Marines, I think the Defiler is superior to the Vindi, since most people take DP with the Vindi, and then it cost about as much as the Defiler, but if you get one weapon destroyed result on a vindi, it's dead, where as the Defiler just keeps going. I like to think of it like a Dreadnought, but BETTER! :lol:

[Corpse.]

Chaos Lords...

 

I admit, I have never really relied on them and I sank enough points in them that have lost me games sometimes. But having a random aspect, aside from also being an ork player that uses plenty of the random stuff they come with.

 

Being able to wipe entire units off the table with a few really good rolls have made it worth it at times, especially when I saw five 6's get handed down on the to-wound roll of my khornate lord slicing up a small squad of wraithguard. Which in the end, force them the last few saves being fearless and then lose everything. (Recently happened)

 

Another game, I used Abbadon. I played him so poorly I literally handed him 275 points worth of a model. Though he focussed so much on the damn model he literally re-deployed his entire army to get the final shots to take out his last wound he handed me two objectives we contested into a draw. So, he was mildly effective with my poor choices. A prince would have been treated similarly, and I didnt want to put him inside a troop unit to remove my few scoring units off the table.

 

Then there was the time I played with a ton of possessed, they made a certain list playable, because of eldar drawbacks. 80 models on the table is one thing, 80 MEQ all with 4+ cover/5+ inv saves was an entirely different story for many armies that fell before the weaknesses were learned and people got wise with their transports and sacrificial units pulling draw after draw on it. (Then came a ruling over a tactic that was used with that army, to stop part of the concept).

 

I am working on the nurgle now, no lashes. Adding bubbleblooded Khorne (meaning infectious rage) since a type of insanity can be a psychic infection from nurgle, I felt it was fine to go with it. The army rocks, even though it loses mor often. Going back to the older ways with less (but tougher) models gives me a middle ground to find yet more ways to take the army and discover what else I can do.

 

Horde; Mecha; Smash; Lash; Spear; Reserved(water style); Bomb(daemonbomb+teleportables); spawnswarm(was fun); and various other types I have tried, with some I forgot to try or didnt persue after trying due to lack of interest. I think I may revisit spawnswarm, making them follow a bunch of nurgle raptors to obtain a 4+ cover save on the way there. I know its inefficient, but having fun with chaos lords and spawning more spawns through sorcerers makes me feel quite accomplished when a win is the result. Even if the army plays itself.

[Night Stalker]

Chaos Lords and Raptors. They all sucks, but it's fun to play with them. Nothing is as funny as Chaos Lord who screw is screwed by his own weapon when he is in close combat with greater daemon!

 

Saying that, they suck hard. It's like playing with 1400 points list on 1500 tournament - yeah, you can win - but you're still handicapped.

[harvarn]

Chaos Lords and Raptors. They all sucks, but it's fun to play with them. Nothing is as funny as Chaos Lord who screw is screwed by his own weapon when he is in close combat with greater daemon!

 

Saying that, they suck hard. It's like playing with 1400 points list on 1500 tournament - yeah, you can win - but you're still handicapped.

 

I kinda disagree i use x2 raptors(5men) + 2meltas that deepstrike in to create havoc before my lines arrive, Usually they DS in pop a tank then get shot to bits but before they die they normally take out 2 LR or wreck particular threats to my csm ae wave serpents (from the rear) or particular annoying IG tanks. Ive even denied the opponent the ability to flank my lines via wrecking their apc trying to out maneuver me leaving them to be ignored till i crush their main lines.

 

About the lord And the daemon weapon i kinda like it lol, i have died to my own weapon when it matters most but most of the time he does contribute to the carnage... and if you think of it a, 40pts/25pts weapon that does D6 attacks +4 or 5A with no set back will make it too op... having it bite you in the ass is very chaos. Its our trade mark as long i can remember from dex 2.0 till the current we always had an element of randomness.

 

A good funny example is that my lord wipe a Death Co unit only to die to a 5 men scout unit when he rolled a 1 on the daemon weapon... lol.... classic...

[Night Stalker]

For 40 points you can have 5/6 S4 attacks with re-roll to wound, wchich is more reliable than 5,83/6,6 average attack with S5 (worse than S4 with re-rolls), so it's not best weapon for chaos lord. It does +d6 attack (well, less since you dont attack if you roll 1), but it also cannot gain +1 attack from two close combat weapons. So disagree if you want - mathammer prove my point.

 

Raptors are worse than basic assault marines, and are worse than say termicide, so in comparition with other choices thay sucks. Less than chaos lord, but still sucks.

[Fintan]

I think you should could to England, Jeske, so we can give you a lesson in how 40k is meant to be played

years , ago when I was still a student and we were starting to work with GW [translation of books] my friend got disqualified in a GT for having 2ed ork armed with bolters and not shoots like they should be in 3ed . yeah I more or less know how friendlly is the UK setting to people not from UK.

 

I was one of the not so few people who started the hobby in eastern europe . The only way w40k should be played is true to the legal rules . And thats all . I didnt say I like the way codexs or armies look right now [in fact if you remembered right me and refuse where two of the most people who disliked the new chaos dex the most]. But being someone who plays for more then 20 years , I tell you that from my xp , I have seen more people quit or switch to other games , because they army didnt work , then because they had to play against good builds . Sure by UK standards even 12 year olds here are power gamers [because we dont play with sub par lists ] , but we have very good gamers , no whiners , a strickt code of game play and yes we do have fun when playing . I dont know what you mean by unpredictable , because all chaos armies to me look the same . even the weaker builds [like nm water warrior] have the same game play as a BL clone army . Sad , but true .

 

 

 

I personally believe that people who claim that X build is a "noob" army and that Space Marines can only use two builds and be successful are talking a load of rubbish.

rhino rush and LR rush whats the third working working csm build , that are wide played? chaoszylla or NM water warrior?

 

 

If people are leaving the game because they're not winning games, then they've not entered into the spirit of the game in the first place. People who play the game to a "competitive" level have got it all wrong in my opinion. It's not an overly complicated game, like you said yourself, 12 year olds have a strong enough grasp of the rules to create cheesy, effective lists. I think the key word in all of this is *game*. It's meant to be a hobby, not a job. Assuming your friend sees the game in the same manner that you do, I'm not suprised he was denied entry, I wouldn't want either of you playing in something I'd organised either with your bland, analytical take on the game. I'd deny you entry then re-admit you on the condition that you brought your personalities with you on your return. Honestly, if you want to excel at something at least pick something that by your own admission, 12 year olds can't master.

 

I apologise if I come across as incendiary but the truth is that your negativity about everything that isn't min/maxed irritates the hell out out of me. If I had more time to play the hobby I'd love to take my themed army down to the GT and make some power gamers weep.

[SquirrelKing]

Well, I want to keep this thread on topic and I would hate to see it locked... so here is another unit I like very much.

 

If they weren't overused in cheesy lists, I might use my Oblits a lot more. I remember opening the last Chaos 'dex and looking at the Oblit entry and being blown away by the artwork depicting them. They looked so awesome. (btw the old 'dex had some much nicer illustrations imo)

 

I haven't tried them out yet, but the idea of move and shoot plasma cannons is very interesting :P (One of my friends plays DA and he loves his Plasma cannons, so I know how devastating they can be in 5th)

[harvarn]

For 40 points you can have 5/6 S4 attacks with re-roll to wound, wchich is more reliable than 5,83/6,6 average attack with S5 (worse than S4 with re-rolls), so it's not best weapon for chaos lord. It does +d6 attack (well, less since you dont attack if you roll 1), but it also cannot gain +1 attack from two close combat weapons. So disagree if you want - mathammer prove my point.

 

Raptors are worse than basic assault marines, and are worse than say termicide, so in comparition with other choices thay sucks. Less than chaos lord, but still sucks.

 

Like the 1st post said its what we like to field... anyway why are assault marines better? I am assuming you think i use them in cc which is the last place they ever are in. Thing about termicide is that once they shoot their AT range job is over. moving 12" really helps... Anyway there isnt any point arguing cause there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[cathar the great]

*gulping down OT comments*

 

*taking a deep breath*

 

Okay, here goes ^^

 

I have recently painted up my 10-men squad of Fallen, count-as Chosen, with two meltas, two plasmaguns, a champ with fist and Icon of Slaanesh. A rather expensive squad, and I might change the plasmas to meltas, too, but they are a lot of fun. In the first game against another CSM, I infiltrated them behind a big wall and jumped out on a Landraider. The raider exploded, only three of the termies inside plus a lord came out. Next turn they attack me, my champ kills both termies and the rest of the squad kills the lord, with no casualties. Next turn they were wiped out by the rest of the enemy, but still fun.

 

Second game against space marines was similar, they took down a dread and a vindicator before being shot to pieces.

 

So not a long-lasting unit, but a lot of fun!

 

In my opinion, any list and any game can be fun. If you take a bit of time to come up with some background story to it, it will always be enjoyable.

 

A friend of mine had a sm list he was very disappointed in and no money to change it, so we played a few custom scenarios that favoured his Heavy Support heavy army. Lots of fun, kept him on the game until he could afford some new stuff.

[Corpse.]

Last time I checked 60 raptors with icons of khorne, Pfists + two lashers ends up in quick games as far as I remember. Where the first rolls to kill something were rolling armor saves for entire units three times over rather then peck shots and random scatter dice to depend on. Lash works best with raptors IMO, first turn charges are gnarly with basic marines that cost 5 pts more with their icons, no need for transports and a first turn charge to put them where most chaos marines prefer to be with the enemy and 57 ablative wounds for their three power fists that get an extra attack each due to the icon which in itself is almost worth its points cost adding another 60 attacks a turn for 90 pts alone.

 

Raptors with MoN = Bikes in melee. (Better bikes, cost less, no turbo boost/TLB but you get them for 22.5 pts a guy at 20 per squad).

Raptors with MoS = lots of dead marines before they strike back, and a higher initiative to chase down anything else that is not fearless or ATSKNF, to make sure they die.

Raptors with MoK = More raptors attacking that exist, every 3 extra raptors you get one free aside from the icon cost, keep the squad big and benefit from it.

Raptors with MoT = You get a unit that is built to handle (almost) anything, and in a game of adversity where you can and literally will face everything and the kitchen sink, thats saying a lot. (Deep strike and run to spread them apart)

 

But, basic, perhaps they cost too much. Though when we run 60 and a few troops, mirror us against blood angels armies and they arent any better off in the end and you still see their red banners at most major tourniments. So its a shame we dont see more raptor armies.

 

But aside from the demonstrations, they are a nice rapticide if you already include termicide and obliticide, for a truely mobile fire based army. (more on the scale of tzeentch daemon armies IMO) But using rapts instead of termicide, someone would have to have an excuse for that if they want to call it power gaming. (Like they already have 30 termies that arent deep striking, or otherwise, etc)...

 

 

As for the topic, I think this relates to the topic in hand. As long as people keep it civil its ok. Since its talking about units that seem sub par, people can defend and enforce their views why they can/cant be a part of the upper tier gaming circles.

[harvarn]

On another note ive seen a fallen ravenwing army before 30 bikes and a few troops in rhinos and 2 preds was pretty amazing to watch. His victories are average but the amount "of that is cool!" and the amount of people lining up to have a game with him is priceless...

[nurglez]

I love my plague marines, tried out a DG army in the previous codex and enjoyed it, current codex i tried mixing it up and didnt enjoy it, went back to pure DG and love them.

 

They have the same effect as necrons did against small arms fire, they are lovely and resilient.

 

I enjoy running close combat dreads too, though i prefered them in the previous codex.

 

once, carnifex with 1 wound left stood in front of one of my close combat dreads, i wanted to charge him of course, but instead rolled fire frenzy, 8 bolter shots later and the carnifex was dead from a single shot between the eyes :lol:

[SquirrelKing]

once, carnifex with 1 wound left stood in front of one of my close combat dreads, i wanted to charge him of course, but instead rolled fire frenzy, 8 bolter shots later and the carnifex was dead from a single shot between the eyes :P

 

This is the reason I don't like the dreads: rolling for effects. I roll horribly. Very horribly. I'm already fighting against an opponent, so fighting against myself makes it even harder!

 

A part fom the heavy support to elite change, what's different about the dreads in 5th?

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Chaos Space Marines. The vanilla kind, with 2 special weapons and Chaos Glory, in a Rhino.

 

One, because I can field loyalist models as vanilla CSMs. No mutations or spikey bits, Chaos Glory is represented by a squad banner.

 

Two, because after new SM codex turned SM tactical squads into objective sitters, I just love having a troops choice that goes somewhere, shoots something and then assaults something too, and does it reasonably well. That to me says "Space Marines".

 

And Oblits. What a Swiss Army Knife. It's cheap, it's tough, it walks around and shoots an lovely assortment of weapons, and it can deep strike too.

[Night Stalker]

Raptors with MoN = Bikes in melee. (Better bikes, cost less, no turbo boost/TLB but you get them for 22.5 pts a guy at 20 per squad).

Raptors with MoS = lots of dead marines before they strike back, and a higher initiative to chase down anything else that is not fearless or ATSKNF, to make sure they die.

Raptors with MoK = More raptors attacking that exist, every 3 extra raptors you get one free aside from the icon cost, keep the squad big and benefit from it.

Raptors with MoT = You get a unit that is built to handle (almost) anything, and in a game of adversity where you can and literally will face everything and the kitchen sink, thats saying a lot. (Deep strike and run to spread them apart)

 

But, basic, perhaps they cost too much. Though when we run 60 and a few troops, mirror us against blood angels armies and they arent any better off in the end and you still see their red banners at most major tourniments. So its a shame we dont see more raptor armies.

 

If they would be scoring, they would be used more often. Right now they lose in comparition with Khorne Berzerkes (scoring), Plague Marines (scoring), Terminators (beter and cheaper [unit!] than rapticide) and Obliterators (more versatile). And Raptors are lash victim. Granted each aforementioned unit is above the power curve, and Raptors are only slightly below.

 

So still, i think they are subpar units, although fun to use (i have only 50 of them, so 60 is out of question right now).

 

Btw, Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad (fair comparition - both are non scoring) are about the khorne raptors points level (and cost 2 points more per trooper if there is 10 raptors - only 1,25 more if there is 8 raptors), but cant lose attacks if icon drops, may take greater variety of weapons, and can be boosted by chaplains (re-roll hits).

[chillin]

I guess I have most fun with reg. old squads of csm's probably, fun to see what they can pull off sometimes.

Also fun seeing how much I can effect game with an empty rino (quite alot sometime)

Taking daemons is also fun, they pop up outta nowhere andd opponent gets annoyed b/c they mess up whatever plan he thought was going well. Besides, what's more chaosy then summoning daemons ?

defilers can be fun if they live long enough to do anything.

[Muller]

I haven't played my CSM since the new dex, simply because it don't allow me the fun I used to have with them. Hell I'm even trying to sell my beloved Black Legion now.

 

I used to have an armylist like this:

Deamon Prince with wings and icon of khorne

8 possessed

9 bloodletters

10 chosen in power armour with icon of khorne and rhino

5 chosen in terminator armour

20 CSM marines

5 raptors

defiler

 

What I did was move the deamon prince into melee as soon as possible into key enemy units to lock them up, have my chosen 1 arrive with rhino no later than 1 turn after to join the DP in CC. Possessed and terminators would advance onto other key units to lock them up in CC ans well as gun a few down on the way. the bloodletters would join the fray from either my DP or chosen icons (had 2 so that if one unit was killed they wouldnt be so unreliable, the bloodletters that is). and the defiler would blast enemy vehicles or hordes off the table with indirect or direct fire or advance when needed. My 2 squads of marines would take ground and provide fire support, ready to claim objectives or table quarters, etc.

 

This army did not use any of the previous deamon/obliterator bomb cheese that you could do with the old dex. and nowadays I cant do it anymore because of the total redesigning of the whole dex and the units possobilites.... It makes me very sad

[SquirrelKing]

and nowadays I cant do it anymore because of the total redesigning of the whole dex and the units possobilites.... It makes me very sad

 

 

Don't I know it... My main army was/is AL: Footslogging, infiltrating, infantry heavy (always had max troop slots, plus havocs without heavy weapons, plus chosen in PA, and raptors). Had a lot of fun with that list. Now I'm not sure what to do with it anymore. I mean, the guys are still there, just no more personality. I loved the veteran skills and the deamonic gifts: you could really personalize your army. I'm sure I'll find something to recreate that feeling with the new dex, just haven't found it just yet! ^_^