the jeske Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 That's good, because I had always viewed you as an arrogant and stubborn pro-gamer with no soul for the hobby, which you are not. But often, you seem that way because of your posts. the hobby died when they kicked out H-man out of the DT or maybe when they didnt let Chamber totally change the game for 4th ed [he had a complettly new game ready more dynamic with interaction for both players on both turns , but GW said no] , it sure is dead as hell now . I mean painting ? why bother . converting ? with counts as you can use anything as long as you have 1 model to check LoS , you can use stones on bases and its legal. Fluff ? with the happy chaos family or every loyalist sm wanting to be an ultramarine , I dont think so . But what w40k still has is players people who spent cash and time to master their armies . players is the last thing that keeps the game and probablly the hobby too [i mean there are better models out there to buy, then those of GW if you just want to paint/convert]. But had a great time imagining the cinematics of the battles, laughing with my opponent, learning the game. playing against all possible builds in all possible set ups , thats is learning the game . as I said before am failing to notice the cinematic part of the game , unless someone house rules stuff or plays 2ed . I mean lets make it as simple as it gets . yes you can play poker for fun . and yes you can probablly have fun playing it that way . But in no way those that make you a poker player . I was just saying that these are complementary to playing the game: as in you can still play the game without detailed knowledge of the game system and its faillings. yes and not knowing the rules makes you a noob and not a player . I will fail to see why a year old veteran should be named the same as someone who doesnt even know the basic rules of all armies. While I see a player as someone who joins someone else at moving little plastic men on a table and rolling dice. ... but that would mean we play with toys , like children . dumped down as it is I still think that at least to in some part all GW games are more then just games for kids . I know it's hard to say what you really mean if English is not your mother tongue, I often fail at that, too, but you should really take a little more time rephrasing what you want to say so it doesn't create harsh comments and discussions yes , I offten notice that being sure of your point of view is seen as arrogance on western forums . also you wouldnt believe how many times my wife tells me to edit stuff before posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 You know what, you obviously take this game and all its possible associations way more seriously than I do. Your perspective on the hobby is very conservative and your way of approching it is very mechanical. I respect your opinions, and you can bet I'll come and see you if I need advice for a tourny, but you need to accept that not everyone plays the same way, and that anyway of playing is acceptable if it is agreed upon by the players playing the game. You might not like it, but someone else does. Maybe I should start a new thread on the definition of key words like "game", "player", and "fun". :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 If the hobby died, then how can I be enjoying it still? By being a moron, maybe? Sorry, jeske, but there is a difference between being firm in your opinion and being condescending. Maybe it is a language mentality matter. If you say "the hobby died" in english, you are stating a fact, not an opinion. Stating something as a fact which not everyone in the discussion accepts as fact, i.e. which is still being discussed, is generally not a good thing. I can certainly be firm in my opinion without doing that, by stating that I believe the hobby to be dead, for example. To me, the hobby is not dead, though. The fluff never died, in fact, it is growing all the time. The modelling and painting possibilities are growing, too, as GW do increase the plastics quality every year. If you only painted to play, and not because you liked painting, then obviously with counts as you do not have any more reason to. However, I doubt that anyone here on this forum will make you see how narrow your point of view is, and how much you are limiting your perspective by being too sure of your opinions. Allowing oneself to be wrong from time to time makes life a lot more enjoyable overall, not only as far as little plastic men, i.e. toy soldiers, which is exactly what GW produces, are concerned. Now that is one thing I am entirely sure being right about: GW miniatures are toy soldiers, no matter how many tourneys you have won with them. Having won tourneys is not worth anything, except maybe some kind of price you got, unless it means something to you. But it never makes you superior to who you call 'noobs'. Maybe you are better at winning the game, I am quite sure that I am better at playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 My favorite piece to use is my Death Guard Terminator Lord with his Terminators, hands down. Nothing surprises an opponent more then when I drop down 2 squads of 7 Terminators and a Terminator Lord with a huge Scythe off of an Icon and in their face. I love going Terminator heavy, it has a chance of working or it could blunder big time, and I love taking risks in this game. Probably why I love playing Chaos Daemons... Don't mind jeske, he's a veteran player and he's bitter about the changes GW made. Truthfully, I can agree with him on some things, but I still love the game and I like the challenge of working around a gimped codex and still making it competitive while still being able to use my old models in the new rules (can be difficult at times). I find myself more of a fluff and fun oriented player, while he's a competitive and "in it to win it" kind of guy. Don't take what he says as harsh or whatnot. Things typed out can often times come out completely different then we want anyhow, as I've been known to do at times. He still loves the game, don't let him fool ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbiter Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 @Dusk Raider: Well said, sir. I also must list my Death Guard Commander and his bodyguard Terminator squad as one of my favorite units. My main difference with Dusk Raider is I use a Sorceror in Terminator Armor with Warp Time. They have been a very fun and hard-hitting unit in my games. Oddly enough, one of my favorite things about them is the 'psychological' effectiveness of the unit. Now, I am not a top-tier player...I win some games, I lose some games, it's all good. And my Terminators are not invincible...they've been driven back or reduced in number a few times. But I don't think they've ever been successfully wiped out completely, in games I've played with them, and my friends in my gaming group tend to go "Crud! It's those Nurgle termies!" and look panicked whenever they deep-strike in. :sick: Even if they don't necessarily kill units singlehandedly, the amount of fire they draw away from my troops is often very helpful...and when they do shrug off massive incoming bolter/lasgun/shuriken cannon fire, it's very cool and feels much like the description of the Death Guard from the various novels and sourcebooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The fluff never died, in fact, it is growing all the time. prove that . there is less fluff in the in the csm codex , then the one made by h-man . Or by growing you mean the happy chaos family ? The modelling and painting possibilities are growing, too, as GW do increase the plastics quality every year. well am nto going to comment on painting as I dont know anything about it . But the modeling part . how is it growing or makes people skill up . In the old days it took skills with green stuff and sculpting to do new stuff . I would actually say there is fewer people with real modeling skills then it was 10 or 20 years ago . I remember seeing my first converted army years ago . half of the models resculpted . face sculpts [something that is very very hard to do well] . it was awesome . Righ now people do weapons swamps and reposition plastic arms/legs and say they are doing conversions ? Making a model from scratch with wire and green stuff thats modeling . But it never makes you superior to who you call 'noobs' I will not agree here . having more skills is always means your better , even if its about something as casual as w40k . more skills means you get respect . Maybe you are better at winning the game, I am quite sure that I am better at playing it. ok , how can one play the game and not win and still be better at playing ? But I think I said enough of my point of view on the game and my wife says am just making people more angry , so I stop here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 The fluff never died, in fact, it is growing all the time. prove that . there is less fluff in the in the csm codex , then the one made by h-man . Or by growing you mean the happy chaos family ? The modelling and painting possibilities are growing, too, as GW do increase the plastics quality every year. well am nto going to comment on painting as I dont know anything about it . But the modeling part . how is it growing or makes people skill up . In the old days it took skills with green stuff and sculpting to do new stuff . I would actually say there is fewer people with real modeling skills then it was 10 or 20 years ago . I remember seeing my first converted army years ago . half of the models resculpted . face sculpts [something that is very very hard to do well] . it was awesome . Righ now people do weapons swamps and reposition plastic arms/legs and say they are doing conversions ? Making a model from scratch with wire and green stuff thats modeling . But it never makes you superior to who you call 'noobs' I will not agree here . having more skills is always means your better , even if its about something as casual as w40k . more skills means you get respect . Maybe you are better at winning the game, I am quite sure that I am better at playing it. ok , how can one play the game and not win and still be better at playing ? But I think I said enough of my point of view on the game and my wife says am just making people more angry , so I stop here. It is probably regional. How can you look at Wolf Lord Mjolnir, Apologist, Revmat, Digits, Spikyjames, Synapse, and so on's armies and think the hobby is dead? Everything you say is you opinion, and not decided fact. You can't set the bar on conversions, because that is setting a bar on creativity. Conversions arn't like fluff. You models are the best way to express how you see the universe, and if by positioning the legs a little, I think that my little guardsmen is running from trench to trench praying for his life, or my Space Marine has just kicked down a door and is blasting away at heretics, all the more fun for me right? Edit using the Chaos Codex in an argument is insane. It was obviously a mistake. Comparing it to anything else is wanting other to have to suffer because something bad happened to you. Misery may love company, but company hates the miserable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 ok , how can one play the game and not win and still be better at playing ? Learn from your mistakes, move on, and know better for next time. Or better yet, learn from other people's mistakes. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelestialSon Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I always thought the Chaos section of this forum was polluted by cynicism. This thread confirms it. Too bad there isn't a chaos forum where we can discuss wha the codex is without compairing it to what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthandallStars Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I've been playing Warhammer since 2002, mostly on the Fantasy side until recently. the jeske is right about what he says in relation to actually playing the game on the table itself. To be competitive outside of "house rules" games or easy opponents there really are only a few viable lists for Chaos. Essentially the army is built around 3 units: DP, CSM, and Oblits. The "friendly" games in my area consist of rock hard lists outside the kids sometimes you play at the store. Now let me be very clear in stating that there is more to the hobby than just the actual tabletop game itself, and I derive, like most people, pleasure from some of the other aspects. I particularity like making terrain, but the point to painting, stories, and terrain is to actually play. Otherwise there wouldn't be a game, just stories and models. So if one wants to be competitive in all of their games, then one is forced to take optimized lists. If one cares less about winning, but more about theme then take what one will. It was disheartening for me to see, after playing a few games, that so many models I have bought and painted will be shelved unless I want to take them "just for fun." It isn't just about me though. If I take multiple units of Possessed and a small horde of Spawn "for the fun of it", and my opponent wants a highly competitive game, then his victory is hollow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Which is why powergamers and fluff gamers do not mix well. Edited for political correctness. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintan Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I will not agree here . having more skills is always means your better , even if its about something as casual as w40k . more skills means you get respect . I hear 40k related respect is invaluable in the rough ghettos of Novosybirsk, without it, all the 12 year old powergamers would have no-one to look up to, no-one to teach them how to further decrease their enjoyment of the game and no-one to teach them how to be overly cynical of anything that they disagree with. I personally believe that you need some time away from the hobby so that you can re-assess why you're playing it in the first place. Your rantings don't sound healthy at all and if you're not careful, you could destroy whatever enjoyment you have left in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvarn Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 you could destroy whatever enjoyment you have left in the game. he enjoys the game? taught he enjoys the replies and company... I dunno about you guys, but if i hate something so dire i usually quit it rather than rant it out.... 24/7 Problem is we, may never see it his way, and he wants us to see it his way, and no one wants to see that either way so lets get back to the topic.... anyway... I saw something pretty cool a naga Slaanesh lord, basically a csm lord with daemon weapon, and daemonic steed. Looks pretty neat, dunno if fleet of hoof still exist but that would make his charge range between 18-24" Pretty cool addition to a reactive water list i must say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 But I think I said enough of my point of view on the game and my wife says am just making people more angry , so I stop here. I don’t think it’s a question of making people angry Jeske. It’s just when you say that their perception of the hobby is wrong, that’s when people tend to react strongly. You are not pointing out a mistake, like 2+2=5, you are saying that the way they think is wrong, and that your vision is right. I think that is why people react so much to how you respond. I will be playing a 12 000pts (4 players at 3000 pts) apoc game on the weekend, and I will try out some stuff I have read on the forum (like Lash, oblits, termicide, PMs) but I will also be playing with some of my favorite units (bikes, some VDR and Sorceror on Bike for example). I'll post some pics and (maybe) a small battle report next week if anyone is interested :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 A lot of hypocrite people in here. Almost all of you also say your opinions clearly, difference here is Jeske is in the minority with his opinions. Thats allways the case with people... Pitty my english isnt good enough either to perfectly say what I want... Well I agree with most of the things Jeske says. Respect is relative, like almost all things in live. Some people get respect for walking a marathon, some for wh40k. Doesnt matter, it only matters what you personally value the most. Ah well little time will comment later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Important Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Holy crap I've read the whole thread now and it just feels like it's everyone vs the jeske. Kinda too bad since we all think different. I actualy agree with most people here. Yeah sure I power game sometimes and just max out an list. But sometimes I pick and choose some units that have proven to be useless for me for example maxed out noise marines they never do anything for me, or possessed. Love them but waste of points. When it comes to the fluff thingie that came up. You can make up some own fluff and such that doesn't hurt the 'main plot' or what you want to call GW's plan for the game. Example I have is in my gaming group we have a planet we fight for and sometimes write battle reports and take pictures to put our gaming club website. And in that way we progress fluff on the battle for that planet. Might not be enough for some people but for where I play it's perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 A lot of hypocrite people in here. Almost all of you also say your opinions clearly, difference here is Jeske is in the minority with his opinions. Thats allways the case with people... Pitty my english isnt good enough either to perfectly say what I want... The problem is not that he states his opinions clearly, it's that he implies that any other opinion is wrong. Of course, this could be due to language barriers, but that is still the impression he gives away. I am happy he defends his point of view so vehemently, I would just like to see if he can accept that the way he perceives the hobby is not the right (or wrong)way, it's just different. Because my view is not right (or wrong), it just is. I can accept that my perception is not shared by everyone, I'm sure he can too. Even if we differ in thoses opinions. Actually, I can agree on some points he makes, but not the overall theme behind his thinking. Group hug everyone! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonMerrick Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 There's no need for this (or any) thread to get harsh and get disrespectful. I too think Jeske has some wonderful tactical insights into the game and I agree with many of his views on actual game playing. If you ever want to know how "effective" a units is, he has the experience to offer a very strong and well backed arguement. Where we differ is in our overall interest in the universe/hobby of 40k and the signifigance of fluff vs effectiveness. While I enjoy playing (wish I could do more at the moment), I also place an equal value on terrain building, painting, and writing short stores as background for battles. Jeske enjoys the battling aspect of the gaming portion of the hobby. While this is different from my perspective, neither one is "right" and neither one is "wrong". The views of power gamers and fluff lovers (that sounds weird...) can be different and thats ok. Either way we all enjoy the game/hobby of 40k. I personally love learning about other's people's views and perspectives. If this thread teaches anything it's shown: a.) people are into this hobby for many different reasons, all of which are equally important to an individual. Its an issue of personal preference. b.) I need to play more... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Very well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I saw something pretty cool a naga Slaanesh lord, basically a csm lord with daemon weapon, and daemonic steed. Looks pretty neat, dunno if fleet of hoof still exist but that would make his charge range between 18-24" Pretty cool addition to a reactive water list i must say... I will be trying this setup for my apoc game on the weekend: no deamon weapon but he will have lash. And yes, you do get the fleet rule with the steed of slanesh so it gives a lot of range to charge/move. I actually like the concept of it alot (the steed here will be a heavily modified "bike", so more mechanical than deamonic in my case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 b.) I need to play more... :lol: Seconded :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 b.) I need to play more... :tu: Seconded ;) Thirded :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Wow I just read nearly all of this and I find myself agreeing with with the jeske and I am into the hobby aspect of 40K rather then the gaming aspect. I don't mean to say the hobby is dieing but his opinions are valid and strong. He isn't some kid trying to pick a fight but rather a veteran of 40K that has seen the impact of change on his favourite part of 40K. Way to go the jeske for sticking it out and holding to your valid views even if you seem 'rude'. As for the topic question I personally think Huron is the best unit ever, especially since he has alot of flavour. Of course I play Black Templar but of all units Huron is the best followed by Cypher and then Grey Knight Terminators. Maybe for an Apocalypse game I'll field Huron as a count as Marshal for my Templars or as a Grey Knight. And maybe use Cypher as an Inquisitor. Lots of fun ideas running through my head now. Cheers, Messanger N.B. rather ironic when one thinks about it that the jeske is being considered rude when there are those being directly and in my opinion intentionally rude at him. Edit - Group hug everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 N.B. rather ironic when one thinks about it that the jeske is being considered rude when there are those being directly and in my opinion intentionally rude at him. Yep that is what I ment too. All in all some interesting things are written here in this topic even if a lot is off-topic. (but the off-topic stuff is the intesting part so gladly its allowed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 All in all some interesting things are written here in this topic even if a lot is off-topic. (but the off-topic stuff is the intesting part so gladly its allowed.) I agree, thanks to the mods for giving us some leeway! :sick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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