Messanger of Death Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I agree, thanks to the mods for giving us some leeway! I was thinking the same thing when I posted. But the side topic of this thread is very enlightening to the views of other gaming groups. But I've spent enough time in the Chaos forum for now. If I'm not careful the guys with the big I will come looking. Messanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvarn Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 the naga slaanesh lord did work :) a friend used it with twin lightning claws + daemonic steed the model was a snake like thing with 4 limbs with long claws.. It ripped thru the loyalist marines which fail to realize its 18"+6" With 6 attacks on a charge... and small enough to run behind a rhino/LR. Pretty cool i must say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I'm not usually one to doomsay, but in this case Jeske's right, and I place the blame for it solely on GW and the new IG Codex. I've fought it ever since the new Ork Codex introduced being broken as GW's new standard under 5th Edition, trying to convince myself that it was just a fluke, but the new IG Codex has convinced me that they have murdered this as a hobby. When a "normal human" can withstand a Fire Frenzied plascannon/ML Dreadnought's entire barrage, then charge it and kill it with his bare hands, there is no hobby in this game anymore. Now there is only Win or Not Win. Thanks, GW. What models do I have fun with? Any and all of them that can break the IG now, any way I can. When I figure out what that is, then that's what I'll have fun with from now on. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 When a "normal human" can withstand a Fire Frenzied plascannon/ML Dreadnought's entire barrage, then charge it and kill it with his bare hands, there is no hobby in this game anymore. Maybe I misunderstand you, since I have not read the new IG codex nor played against it, but a normal human surviving the fire from a large, tough, evil machine-thing and then destroying it with its bare hands is what I think makes for a great heroic story. Not knowing what exactly you are referring to, I am assuming that this is possible only by rolling a lot of sixes - if most guardsmen were able to single-handedly kill chaos dreadnoughts while rolling averagely, that would indeed be a little dissatisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 When a "normal human" can withstand a Fire Frenzied plascannon/ML Dreadnought's entire barrage, then charge it and kill it with his bare hands, there is no hobby in this game anymore. Not knowing what exactly you are referring to, I am assuming that this is possible only by rolling a lot of sixes - if most guardsmen were able to single-handedly kill chaos dreadnoughts while rolling averagely, that would indeed be a little dissatisfying. No, just 5s are necessary, like a Daemon Prince, a Chaos Lord, a Chaos Sorcerer, or any other millennia-old being we can field in our inventory. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclear.anxiety Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 So I was wondering if we can all just give an example of a unit that we just love playing with, be it because of conversion, fluff, battle experience, etc. I like my single regular troop squad of 'The Pyre' (SM chapter that turned during the 13th Black Crusade) i've added to my Black Legion- it's a beacon of bright orange in a sea of black armour. Opponents often expect something from them, so sometimes i can use them as bait, but they're nothing special other than i field them with either 2 meltaguns or meltagun + flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvarn Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I'm not usually one to doomsay, but in this case Jeske's right, and I place the blame for it solely on GW and the new IG Codex. I've fought it ever since the new Ork Codex introduced being broken as GW's new standard under 5th Edition, trying to convince myself that it was just a fluke, but the new IG Codex has convinced me that they have murdered this as a hobby. When a "normal human" can withstand a Fire Frenzied plascannon/ML Dreadnought's entire barrage, then charge it and kill it with his bare hands, there is no hobby in this game anymore. Now there is only Win or Not Win. Thanks, GW. What models do I have fun with? Any and all of them that can break the IG now, any way I can. When I figure out what that is, then that's what I'll have fun with from now on. :) I think the IG should have a medal for that ^^ Ive fought the new IG i dont really consider them broken and a fire frenzied dread isnt that great esp with the amount of cover saves ppl get... VS ig normally picking a flank and concentrating on it will render their huge size and bulk redundant. Terrain is a small armies friend ;) No one in my area goes head on vs IG or orks... horde or mech base... even an IG mech suffers from the huge amount of chimeras around... blowing a few on the flanks of that mass of steal will require the rest of them on the other flank to swing around... reducing their los, range, or even ability to reinforce in time. Infact VS mech IG you would really want to immobilize a few of them on the flanks of their column in one game a friend manage to immobilize two chimeras which in turn made things hard for the ig player cause now he had to make a 30" turn to get around his two chimeras an impassible cliff and 4 more chimeras blocking each other in a steel traffic jam... IF he were to go head on any marine loyalist or csm will die to the hail of fire and a buffed up CC abilities ig has... I love dreadnaughts tho esp our csm ones ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Well to be honest I'm quite happy with the new codices released: Marines, Orks and IG are all very interesting codices with quite some different competative builds possible. If they keep doing this the game should become a bit better, although some things as others (Jeske) has pointed out will probably still stay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Yes Z , but in 4th ed you could have different builds from one codex this means when 3 or 4 codexs were out you could be looking at 10+ different lists . Right now you get different game play , but its always one per army book or something like sm/csm have you play mecha or LR rush mecha . so if someone likes to play gunline he had to wait for codex IG , if someone wants to play an sm hth hvy force , he has to play BT or BA and there is no going around it . am not even going in to the whole "and then he may find out that that dex is unplayable/weak" thing or the "but I want to play a hth army without being forced to play BAs" . Terrain is a small armies friend and true LoS is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Yes Z , but in 4th ed you could have different builds from one codex this means when 3 or 4 codexs were out you could be looking at 10+ different lists . Right now you get different game play , but its always one per army book or something like sm/csm have you play mecha or LR rush mecha . so if someone likes to play gunline he had to wait for codex IG , if someone wants to play an sm hth hvy force , he has to play BT or BA and there is no going around it . am not even going in to the whole "and then he may find out that that dex is unplayable/weak" thing or the "but I want to play a hth army without being forced to play BAs" . But is that a wrong thing? I dont want to play against an assaulty IG, or an assaulty Marine player. Does not really fit those armies methinks. And should a player not choose an army because he likes the playstyle (and looks)? I mean why would someone choose to play ultras when he wants to play hth? As long as there are different mecha builds for the example as marines I think its allright. A lot would help indeed if they would release the new codices quicker, but of course that will never happen. GW knows how to make money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 But is that a wrong thing? well instead of waiting a year or two to get different armie with different game play you have to either use stuff that wasnt ment for this edition [unbalanced in both ways ] or wait 2-3 years . now a lot of people play 2-3 years this may well mean that for the whole w40k career they never play an army they would be actually happy with . Imagine you were a EC fan and wanted a working EC army [that doesnt spam lash]. Welcome to the world waiting 2 years , maybe more and even then you dont know if GW doesnt decided to retcon the army and kill its game play . Of course meq dont have it that bad . Imagine wanting to play with a fast moving hth army . wow if you dont like eldar the last army like that was , hmm 3ed speed freaks and deep 3ed DE ? I dont want to play against an assaulty IG, or an assaulty Marine player. Does not really fit those armies methinks. yes , because GW would probablly try to make those armies just like chaos . They dont understand that people want to play IG with warrior armies[even if they sucked hard] and there are tons of assault hvy loyalist chapters , both more and less codex . And should a player not choose an army because he likes the playstyle (and looks)? yes . that is true when you have codex like DA/SW/BA/BT , if someone picks those its understandable[or rather it was right now GW has the policy that there are no chapter or legion rules , want to play with chaos BA or AL led by marneus calgar do it] that he wants to play those for fluff and game play . But general codex that cover a lot of different armies [like IG/sm/chaos] should give a wide range of armies or at least more then one . There is no way to describe the suckness of the fact that legions or renegade chaos chapters aer no longer an army , but a way to paint . But again am not impartial here , I dont care about paiting , I care about the game . when someone tells me I can do what ever I want and then I find that there is one game play for everything [and everything a bit different sucks hard] , but hey I can paint oblits pink and use 6/9 unlike in 4th ed , I just get ... hmm .. well not angry . Sad and disapointed I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 But is that a wrong thing? I dont want to play against an assaulty IG, or an assaulty Marine player. Does not really fit those armies methinks. :wacko: ! Assaulty IG or Loyalists should be perfectly possible out of the codex (there are many hth regiments/chapters). Please, dont use argument - use BA/SW/BT codices - there are non-BA, non-SW, non-BT (and successors) chapters that are hth oriented, and codex should allow that playstyle (hth heavy loyalist marines). Why should they use counts as, when their own book could sport that playstyle as well. Do not make codices one dimensional - it's :lol: boring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Whats the difference between using the SM codex for a hth succesor chapter or using the BA/SW/BT codex for that? Its about the rules right? I see no problem there. IG hth... ah well there are some possibilites for that with Furious charge etc. I get your frustration about the chaos dex Jeske. Cant argue against that. I ment Ultras in stead of marines btw. Chapters who stick to the adeptus astartes book thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Whats the difference between using the SM codex for a hth succesor chapter or using the BA/SW/BT codex for that? Its about the rules right? I see no problem there. IG hth... ah well there are some possibilites for that with Furious charge etc. I ment Ultras in stead of marines btw. Chapters who stick to the adeptus astartes book thing. Why they have to use counts as when they have their own book ? Maybe you advocate chaos players to use 'counts as space marines' when thay want to employ drop pods ? It's the same. They have their own codex, and that codex should allow variety of playstyles - 'you can play BA' is not an argument - it's proof that current codex is failure. No, there are no option for close combat weapon&laspistol basic guardsman. It's failure. Codex Astartes perhaps ? Also, codex: space marines already use non-codex organisation. there is no forced 5 or 10 squads, veteran squad could employ non-codex equipment (thunderhammers for power armoured brethren) - so it's already not 'codex' codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Yeah well you are right, there are always things left to be wished for, and that will always be the case. I still stand with my point, that I am very happy with those last 3 codices I mentioned. There will always be a small group of people who arent satisfied, and maybe the IG codex should be able to field LP + CCW's yes thats true. But again, I think those codices are fine. If other people think they are not, thats fine too. This is just personal taste. Codex Marines also focuses mainly on Ultras and other followers of the Adeptus Astartes, that is written even in that codex. And its not like you cant charge with marines, they are just less effective in it haha. Chaos codex is sad, but I also said nothing about that. And no chaos players using marine codex for count as is NOT the same as marine successor chapters using SW/BA/BT rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthandallStars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 when someone tells me I can do what ever I want and then I find that there is one game play for everything [and everything a bit different sucks hard] , but hey I can paint oblits pink and use 6/9 unlike in 4th ed , I just get ... hmm .. well not angry . Sad and disapointed I think. Agreed. I love the Possessed models but the rules make them just a "fun" unit to take and not a legitimate one for competitive gaming. There are so many problems with the Chaos Codex, and now they are worse because... Orks, and now the IG as well. 5th edition is the era of cheap troop hordes, but the scales tilt in favor of the Orks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 And no chaos players using marine codex for count as is NOT the same as marine successor chapters using SW/BA/BT rules. I think it is the same . I mean in the end it looks like this no matter what "counts as" you will do people will still call this army BA , even if its the raven guard assault company . I liked the time when armies had character [in the 4th ed] when there was a lot of different lists [there was more to sm then gunlime AC/las spam lists] , when people didnt get the use BA rules for your pistol/ccw sm army crap . when you werent told "and you are going to play special character X or Y" , because all other options are sub par or underpowered .What even worse am a realist and I know that in a year or two , GW is going to change their view on codex building . And people with those fun "friendlly" codexs will ask themself that what DA players ask themselfs when they look at their dex. why the hell did I waste money/time/etc on this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthandallStars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 What even worse am a realist and I know that in a year or two , GW is going to change their view on codex building . And people with those fun "friendlly" codexs will ask themself that what DA players ask themselfs when they look at their dex. why the hell did I waste money/time/etc on this ? Are they changing it because they realize the current way is bad, or because of a philosophical change of gameplay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 While I do agree with you on some points, specifically the dislike of the counts as rule if taken to extremes, jeske, I have to say: What even worse am a realist and I know that in a year or two , GW is going to change their view on codex building . And people with those fun "friendlly" codexs will ask themself that what DA players ask themselfs when they look at their dex. why the hell did I waste money/time/etc on this ? And those who have found inner peace will answer their own question with "because it was great fun, and because of that, I do not regret it at all.". The counts as rules were probably not even meant to allow players to field a raven guard army using blood angels rules, but it is nonetheless a nuisance. I do like when people come up with armies that have no current rules and do counts-as-armies, like someone who made a genestealer cult army using ork rules, but if they play an existing army using the rules of another existing army because those are better, something went wrong somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 What even worse am a realist and I know that in a year or two , GW is going to change their view on codex building . And people with those fun "friendlly" codexs will ask themself that what DA players ask themselfs when they look at their dex. why the hell did I waste money/time/etc on this ? Are they changing it because they realize the current way is bad, or because of a philosophical change of gameplay? nope because every 4/5 codex they do change the DT team or desing philosophy , like since 2ed . they always did that its how they do stuff. And those who have found inner peace will answer their own question with "because it was great fun, and because of that, I do not regret it at all.". I dont think there was one moment in 4th ed when DA players though , thats a good codex we have here . specially as If I remember right we were the next dex. I do like when people come up with armies that have no current rules and do counts-as-armies, like someone who made a genestealer cult army using ork rules, but if they play an existing army using the rules of another existing army because those are better, something went wrong somewhere. problem is raven guard just like chaos legions have fluff and at least have a non retconed gameplay , they even have a codex [codex sm] . more they have a special character[something IH lack for example , just like all non cult chaos legions] yet its impossible to build a working ravanguard army . closest thing you can do is either use BA dex or use counts as[spits] with other specials . In fact shriek for me is a really sad character . very nice buff , would have been a very nice buff for a sm army ... in 4th ed . Righ now all he can do is a scout buffing list and that has auto lose match ups with hth armies [but they own IG /Tau like no other list ]. But it goes even deeper . In the 4th there was top tier. IW , khorn BL , sm gunline las/AC spam . all top lists . but there were different lists , you didnt have to play in this or that way . Now you just cant say my chapter is battered they dont use transports . No 99% of armies will run transports for all units . Before I could play a BA slogger list , a BT slogger list or a chaos sloger list [many different ones AL/DG/WB/WE] . Righ now there are BT and thats it . 6+ different lists dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Believe me, I would like to see a lot more options for even more legions/chapters/fill in your own choice, but thats not reachable. I find it far more important that they update Dark Eldar, Necrons, Deamonhunters/Inquisition, hell even Tau and SoB. All those armies are really in desperate need of an upgrade. Thats far more important then the Ravenguard player who cannot perfectly field the army he wants. This game will never become perfect, maybe not even near. But 'perfect' is different in everybodies eyes anyway. Again: I'm happy with the 3 newest codices, if they do that for every new army then you wont hear me complaining! I would be fine if they do a similiar thing with the chaos codex as they did with marines, only (look even I'm not happy!) they should make it not so obvious to take specials over regular hq choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 The Jeske speaks truth. Sad truth. Back in the time there were top tier lists, sure - just like nowdays. Now there are less top tier lists, and less second tier list. Many builds took a serious hit, or were totally nerfed ... Raven Guard is glaring example about Codex: SM failure. Entire Codex: CSM is glaring example of failure. Codex: IG is not that bad, but also internal balance is somehow screwed (power fist vs power weapons issue is most glaring one)(and ccw&lp issue). Sure - Codex: IG and Codex: Orks are better than respoctive last one (both have issues). But Codex: SM is not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I find it far more important that they update Dark Eldar, Necrons, Deamonhunters/Inquisition, hell even Tau and SoB. of course you know that the next few dexs are meq :) it is true specially for necron .they were always short on armies only back when they came out they were the only dex that worked like that. Again: I'm happy with the 3 newest codices, if they do that for every new army then you wont hear me complaining! for sm it depends on the point of view. only looking at the number of lists possible the codex is much much better [i dont mean the game power , I mean the variaty] , vulkan , pedro , khan , biker build , shriek is middle tier etc . only those are armies build around special characters and when one looks at the number of list people could make in the old dex its become plain sad. ork dex is probablly one of the best dex they ever made . there are almost no bad units [but they did really go wacko on nob bikers , again with the "we didnt knew people would take 2"etc] . But IG is codex specials characters + cadian regiments support . I understand they want to sell models first am ok with that , but why isnt it possible to make a rough raiders regiment [that lets face it would be very situational]? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellbound Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 My favorite model is my lash of submission flying daemon prince. I played Emperor's Children from the very beginning, and while I usually had a chaos lord on a bike running around tearing everything up, I always loved it when I could play a large game of 3,000 or more points where my daemon prince felt justified in being there, and towered above the rest of my army. Now, that same guy is vital. Since lords and sorcerors suck, and spending time converting them is pretty much a waste because their abilities will in no way reflect how cool they look, the daemon prince is the only option. Luckily I have a nice model for it, and the ability to pull enemies out of cover or into close combat, or forcing synapse creatures away from their charges, is amazing! I especially love pushing enemy models off of objectives towards the end of the game. Classic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilgar Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Well if it would have to be one model, it would definetely be my Callidus assasin, just love the...'look!' *Stabb you in the back* ;) If could pick a unit then it definetely would be a pure GK squad of eight guys, I simply love to play em. They look fabilous, depending on the situation u can play em a million ways, they are hard as a rock, they do exactly as I want em to, and by god do they always slay things magnificiently! PURGEEEE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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