Freakiq Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The problem is that the whole Icon Bearer thing is naff and doesn't well represent the situation either. It does not represent Cult units very well. It is quite sufficient for Chaos Space Marines with a deities blessing. They don't have a blessing, their stick does. Once they drop the stick they lose the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Once they drop the stick they lose the advantage. well as I understand this is a fluff thing . then A there is no way they wouldnt pick it up and on top of that it doesnt work like that for the WB. fluffwise each one of them is a walking icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Yea, the drop the stick, lose the blessing, thing seems pretty retarded to me, Esp. the 30, 40 and 50 pt icons, that's alot to pay for something that might go away upon 1st contact w/ the enemy. But it's on par with the rest of this dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 It does not represent Cult units very well. It is quite sufficient for Chaos Space Marines with a deities blessing. I don't think so. Rules-wise, as pointed out, if it's dropped no-one else can pick it up; so you've paid potentially a lot of points for something that Telion, for example, can easily remove. This is a bad, and rubbish, thing. Fluff-wise, it's just doesn't make sense - every single CSM in that unit is dedicated to their God and no matter what they do on the field of battle if Brother Butterfingers drops his stick then their God disowns them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 As far as rules go: The icons are not permanent or reliable, but neither are Ork Custom Force Fields (compare to Icon of Tzeentch) or Standards (compare to Icon of Chaos Glory). There is nothing wrong with that game mechanic, and it is used in a lot of different varieties. You lose your Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist, you lose the squads HtH potential. Tough luck. I gladly spend 10 points for the ability to re-roll morale tests or 30 points for +1 Attack for everyone, even if that bonus can be lost. I usually prefer more reliable and safe upgrades, but not all squad upgrades are (see powerfists, heavy weapons). As far as fluff go: You see a stick that cannot be picked up when it is dropped, I see a game mechanic representation of a squad that is favoured by a dark god in one instance, but might by underperforming lose his favour at a moment's notice. That's chaos for you. It can grant you powers. And it can doom you. That's perfectly fluffy, even if you don't like the unreliability. Chaos should grant powers, but it should be risky. Khorne Berserkers have earned his favour fair and square, generic Chaos Marine squads with a Khorne icon are not so higly favoured. If they fail they do not deserve his blessing any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Way to not take a joke Corpse. 0_o Some people tend to jump on the bandwagon of name calling so I wanted to shoot it down before it got any worse. Name calling is a form of "joke". Nothing against it personally, I just went into depth of its background so those who felt like jumping in - knew what they are actually doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 As far as rules go: The icons are not permanent or reliable, but neither are Ork Custom Force Fields (compare to Icon of Tzeentch) or Standards (compare to Icon of Chaos Glory). There is nothing wrong with that game mechanic, and it is used in a lot of different varieties. You lose your Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist, you lose the squads HtH potential. Tough luck. I gladly spend 10 points for the ability to re-roll morale tests or 30 points for +1 Attack for everyone, even if that bonus can be lost. I usually prefer more reliable and safe upgrades, but not all squad upgrades are (see powerfists, heavy weapons). As far as fluff go: You see a stick that cannot be picked up when it is dropped, I see a game mechanic representation of a squad that is favoured by a dark god in one instance, but might by underperforming lose his favour at a moment's notice. That's chaos for you. It can grant you powers. And it can doom you. That's perfectly fluffy, even if you don't like the unreliability. Chaos should grant powers, but it should be risky. Khorne Berserkers have earned his favour fair and square, generic Chaos Marine squads with a Khorne icon are not so higly favoured. If they fail they do not deserve his blessing any longer. Yes, but Chaos is also about power to the individual, it has never been about power for a group, except perhaps indirectly. A person pledges their soul to Chaos, promising their own deeds to power Chaos in return for power. So then, why is it that it's now working as a group thing, where a Marine is forsaken for something they didn't even do? Also, why would Khorne care if one of his followers die, when he's been repeatedly shown in the fluff to not give a damn? "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows! Except I hate you now, no power for you." Why would Slaanesh care if one of her followers dies? They still felt the sublime experience that is death, Slaanesh should be happy. Arguments can be made of the other Gods too. Dropping a stick doesn't match fluff. Sure, the Chaos Gods are fickle, but they aren't "some guy who isn't you did something I didn't like, so I don't like you either" fickle. Actually, perhaps thats the answer! The Chaos God gets offended because none of the other Marines can be bothered picking up the Icon! It finally (vaguely) makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 After all the pwr gamers make up some BS about how their dual lash princes in their "NL's" army are actually NL's DP's that are SOOOO terrifying that they scare the enemy troops into going where they want them to. I knew there was a reason I was keeping that in my sig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Yes, but Chaos is also about power to the individual, it has never been about power for a group, except perhaps indirectly. A person pledges their soul to Chaos, promising their own deeds to power Chaos in return for power. So then, why is it that it's now working as a group thing, where a Marine is forsaken for something they didn't even do? Abstract. Game Mechanic. Representation. Like, how is it that every time a Chaos Lord hits something with his Plasma Pistol it works just fine, but avery time he misses the thing over heats. How come the Plasma Pistol reacts differently when he hits something or when he misses his intended target? Does it have a mind of it's own? No, that's just how the game mechanic for over heating works. Also, why would Khorne care if one of his followers die, when he's been repeatedly shown in the fluff to not give a damn? "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows! Except I hate you now, no power for you." Why would Slaanesh care if one of her followers dies? They still felt the sublime experience that is death, Slaanesh should be happy. Arguments can be made of the other Gods too. Dropping a stick doesn't match fluff. One of the Chaos Marine squads looks particularly promising to one of the gods, and as they are a cohesive unit, they are all somewhat inclined towards the same practices of torturing, mauling civilians, gathering artefact trophies, so the god decides to favour them and grants them his blessing. For now. But when they are participating in a certain battle they fail to deliver and do not live up to the promising potential, represented in the game by the one member that had been elected to proudly display their allegiance being removed. They "dropped the ball" so to speak, and disappoint the god who had temporarily favoured them. That could also have been represented by the unit rolling several 1's during a single turn, but the Icon representation is usefull for WYSIWYG purposes. If they have the icon, they have the bonus. If the icon is gone, the bonus is gone. If it would have been dependant on certain dice rolls or failing to reach some pre-determined objective (e.g. like killing 8 models during the first three turns) then players would have to note down or keep track of which squad still has their bonuses and which has lost them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 Honestly i don't have a huge problem with Icons. There are plenty of good explanations for them. It would make sense for there to be a potently charged chaos holy symbol that spreads the influence of its god to those nearby, and would become nothing if destroyed. What bothers me is that they are the only option to mark troops. I think icons would be a great mechanic in something like a traitor guard list, or for recent renegades. But when you are stuck trying to represent proper chaos marines with them, especially cult marines, they just don't cut it. And thats both in fluff and game terms. A lot of the icons are grossly inefficient point wise (tzntch, nurgle) and they leave you with a squad that has no way to deal with morale problems, when marines of any type should have either atsknf, a re-roll, or fearless. If all chaos marines came with fearless base (as they should) i wouldn't be bothered by icons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Tough luck. I gladly spend 10 points for the ability to re-roll morale tests or 30 points for +1 Attack for everyone, even if that bonus can be lost. I usually prefer more reliable and safe upgrades, but not all squad upgrades are (see powerfists, heavy weapons). yes but in an edition where people force 8/9 saves per turn on a unit and having 4 targets [2 specials , the vet sgt and icon] its no longer a luck thing , if something dies. while at the same time a unit of cult guys does more or less the same [and sometimes a lot better like pms vs csm with icon of nurgle] for more or less the same points , but they dont lose their buff [+are fearless] . this makes playing csm a sub par choice , unless someone plays against eldar all the time. Now fluffwise there is no such thing[or rather we never seen it in the fluff ] as blessed for one battle for one god and then switching. a csm dedicted to khorn is dedicted to khorn , the icon may be a focus point [for demons ] , but it has nothing to do with his faith or how strong it is. Again from a fluff point of view if a csm would try to pull khorn icon in one battle tzeench in another , the gods would not like it [and when he would move in for a third god icon he would die]. But thats just the AL/NL legions and maybe BL , who are mostlly undivided. There is no way in truelly showing how icons and dediction to the chaos god works in the WB legion. One of the Chaos Marine squads looks particularly promising to one of the gods, and as they are a cohesive unit, they are all somewhat inclined towards the same practices of torturing, mauling civilians, gathering artefact trophies, so the god decides to favour them and grants them his blessing. For now the for now thing works only when your undivided and you can break/change the pact only if you have a really strong will , not all csm would be able to do that. as the big 4 goes , once you dedicted yourself to them [and without that carring their icon will give you nothing] there is not turning back . even in the time of happy chaos family dex , gods dislike switchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 and they leave you with a squad that has no way to deal with morale problems, when marines of any type should have either atsknf, a re-roll, or fearless. If all chaos marines came with fearless base (as they should) i wouldn't be bothered by icons. I completely disagree. Chaos Marines do not deserve any special morale rule. They have a very high morale value, and that's that. It has allways been the major distinguishing factor between loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines that loyalists automatically came with a morale special rule to represent their dedication to the cause. Chaos Marines are not dedicated to a cause, they are selfish and fight for their own good. If they are badly beaten, tehy will retreat to save their skin. Cult units are fearless because they are loonatics (they were not fearless in 2nd Edition though). There is no reason why a basic Chaos Marine should have a morale special rule over a Dark Eldar or Kroot or Imperial Guardsman. Now fluffwise there is no such thing[or rather we never seen it in the fluff ] as blessed for one battle for one god and then switching. No, obviously the iconed squad has been inclined towards that deity for some time, and is now somewhat favoured and tested. If you use a similarly equipped squad next battle but with a different icon, then fluff-wise they are a different squad. the for now thing works only when your undivided and you can break/change the pact only if you have a really strong will , not all csm would be able to do that. as the big 4 goes , once you dedicted yourself to them [and without that carring their icon will give you nothing] there is not turning back . even in the time of happy chaos family dex , gods dislike switchers. The Marines do not switch anything. The god decides that they are not worth of his blessing. That is absolutely fluffy. Individuals following a chaos god are dependant on their whim. And sometimes they can be cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 They do switch, Black Legion switched because of power struggles to maintain it's survival among it's Rival Legions. They discovered all you needed was a magical ritual to remove the Demon's possessing when you switched gods and you wouldn't end up a dried husk. I don't like Icons, I always thought of them as morale support and not because the God favored one guy out of a squad. If the icon falls, someone should be able to pick the thing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Chaos Marines are not dedicated to a cause, they are selfish and fight for their own good. WB non dedicted to a cause 0_0. No, obviously the iconed squad has been inclined towards that deity for some time, and is now somewhat favoured and tested. only there is no such thing in w40k fluff. you cant partlly follow khorn , just like you cant partlly worship the emperor . either you worship someone totally and then [not always and it depends if your worthy , but lets say its easier to be worthy for space marines] get boons from your god of choice or you get nothing at all. They discovered all you needed was a magical ritual to remove the Demon's possessing when you switched gods and you wouldn't end up a dried husk. this is sarcams or some new fluff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 they fail to deliver and do not live up to the promising potential, represented in the game by the one member that had been elected to proudly display their allegiance being removed. They "dropped the ball" so to speak, and disappoint the god Sure you can make up a story or an excuse for it, but that doesn't change the fact that all but 1 or 2 (or maybe all) of the icons are overpriced b/c of the way wound allocation wks in 5th ed., and they can dissappear at anytime. How many times in army list review section have you seen a new player told not to take IoTz or IoN b/c they are just to expensive for what they actually do. And IoS to a lesser extend. The only 2 that seem to be worth it are IoK and IoCG. MoK is iffy, on csm's you are better off with brzrkrs for @ the same price. On termi's it MAY be worth it on a LR riding hth termi squad, but then your talking about a very expensive unit that is rarly used and the icon costs as much as the another termi. It might be worth it on raptors, but it depends on the size of the squad b/c it cost as much as 1.5 more raptors. IoCG is usually worth it b/c it cost only 10 pts, less then the cost of another csm. But in C:csm 3 & 3.5 MoCU cost the same (assuming 10 man squad) and could not be taken away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Chaos Marines are not dedicated to a cause, they are selfish and fight for their own good. WB non dedicted to a cause 0_0. No, obviously the iconed squad has been inclined towards that deity for some time, and is now somewhat favoured and tested. only there is no such thing in w40k fluff. you cant partlly follow khorn , just like you cant partlly worship the emperor . either you worship someone totally and then [not always and it depends if your worthy , but lets say its easier to be worthy for space marines] get boons from your god of choice or you get nothing at all. They discovered all you needed was a magical ritual to remove the Demon's possessing when you switched gods and you wouldn't end up a dried husk. this is sarcams or some new fluff? My bad, this was for possession only, but otherwise you could shift favor if you were Undivided moving to Patrons for assistance. The Sons of Horus were initially the most aggressive Legion against the Imperium, as if to atone for their previous cowardice on Terra. The Sons dedicated themselves not to one single Chaos Power, but constantly shifted their allegiance to whatever god suited them at the time. Marines willingly became possessed by the Chaos gods' daemons; with every change in loyalty, the daemons of the rejected god abandoned the hosts, leaving them lifeless husks. The once great Legion constantly dwindled in number, until they neared extinction. Eventually the desperate experimentation and research by the Legion's Sorcerer-Librarians uncovered a method of possession that did not destroy the mortal host, saving the Legion. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Legion, Right above Organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 only there is no such thing in w40k fluff. you cant partlly follow khorn , just like you cant partlly worship the emperor . either you worship someone totally and then [not always and it depends if your worthy , but lets say its easier to be worthy for space marines] get boons from your god of choice or you get nothing at all. Chaos Marines do not simply decide to follow Khorne and, snap, they get his blessing. Forever. They have to prove themselves worthy. They may gain his blessing. And, if they are not yet proven beyond all doubt, they may lose it. Even if they were among the gods favourites they could lose his favour if they horribly failed him. There are no rules for such an event though. The reward for those that please their gods is ultimate power; for those that fail it is endless oblivion. - C:CSM, p.9 Sure you can make up a story or an excuse for it, but that doesn't change the fact that all but 1 or 2 (or maybe all) of the icons are overpriced b/c of the way wound allocation wks in 5th ed. Icons were a lot safer in 4th Edition, when the rules were written, true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I don't mind icons; I just want to see the option to take marks as well as a reduction in price of the Nurgle and Tzeentch icons to 25 or 30 points. Better yet, they could keep current prices and improve the Tzeentch save to 4+ and change Nurgle icon to FnP instead of + 1 toughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
refuse Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Chaos Marines are not dedicated to a cause, they are selfish and fight for their own good. WB non dedicted to a cause 0_0. No, obviously the iconed squad has been inclined towards that deity for some time, and is now somewhat favoured and tested. only there is no such thing in w40k fluff. you cant partlly follow khorn , just like you cant partlly worship the emperor . either you worship someone totally and then [not always and it depends if your worthy , but lets say its easier to be worthy for space marines] get boons from your god of choice or you get nothing at all. They discovered all you needed was a magical ritual to remove the Demon's possessing when you switched gods and you wouldn't end up a dried husk. this is sarcams or some new fluff? My bad, this was for possession only, but otherwise you could shift favor if you were Undivided moving to Patrons for assistance. The Sons of Horus were initially the most aggressive Legion against the Imperium, as if to atone for their previous cowardice on Terra. The Sons dedicated themselves not to one single Chaos Power, but constantly shifted their allegiance to whatever god suited them at the time. Marines willingly became possessed by the Chaos gods' daemons; with every change in loyalty, the daemons of the rejected god abandoned the hosts, leaving them lifeless husks. The once great Legion constantly dwindled in number, until they neared extinction. Eventually the desperate experimentation and research by the Legion's Sorcerer-Librarians uncovered a method of possession that did not destroy the mortal host, saving the Legion. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Black_Legion, Right above Organization. only issue with that would be that is Slaves to Darkness that is quoted. The same one that says Grey Knights are not psychic, that Iron Warriors and Night Lords were tied to gods, that Beastmen, and Daemonettes could serve in an Emperor's Children army, and about a million other things that contradict the current codex. Such as there being different daemon types, chaplains in chaos, fallen imperial guard, beastmen and ooh so much more. http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...ison:ChaosCodex I didn't even compare RT era books as the fluff and supporting structures were very different compared to now. Sensei, Star Child were in there. The armies that assaulted Horus' ship were different (Custodes not Blood Angels went with the Emperor back then). Legions were legions, and the war was the first "inter legionary war". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I know refuse, but it's stands now, the glory days of RT are behind and not everyone is willing to jump the gun to say that they should bring it back. Hell, I'm putting my Plague marine warband into storage and I havn't even finished assembling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
refuse Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I know refuse, but it's stands now, the glory days of RT are behind and not everyone is willing to jump the gun to say that they should bring it back. Hell, I'm putting my Plague marine warband into storage and I havn't even finished assembling them. Not disagreeing, the 29th Great Company of the Emperor's Children, have been shelved since the new codex hit the streets. And they are fully built, just not fieldable without alot of "count as". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbreaker Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Way to not take a joke Corpse. 0_o Some people tend to jump on the bandwagon of name calling so I wanted to shoot it down before it got any worse. Name calling is a form of "joke". Nothing against it personally, I just went into depth of its background so those who felt like jumping in - knew what they are actually doing. I knew exactly what I was doing, and I intended it as a joke only. I actually think that Space wolfs are the only spess mehrens worthy of their original name. On the loyalist side that is. I hope no one was offended. :P Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argon Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I have 3 notes to share. 1. No devoted squads('Zerkers, TS, etc) 2. No Defiler~ <3 3. Space wolfs are for furries. Cheers! 1. Wolves are space Vikings. I fail to see how the lack of Bezerkers would be a problem. 2. They should have bigger and better guns than that. Hopefully, anyways. 3. I would love to see what would happen if you put that on the Space Wolves forum. I may have to sig that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Way to not take a joke Corpse. 0_o Some people tend to jump on the bandwagon of name calling so I wanted to shoot it down before it got any worse. Name calling is a form of "joke". Nothing against it personally, I just went into depth of its background so those who felt like jumping in - knew what they are actually doing. I knew exactly what I was doing, and I intended it as a joke only. I actually think that Space wolfs are the only spess mehrens worthy of their original name. On the loyalist side that is. I hope no one was offended. :( Cheers! None taken. Should visit some of the chan /tg/ sections, and various other locations that are a bit lax on voicing personal opinions. It gets pretty gruesome there. A meager mention of anything animal+human related (or even just animal) it gets the furry(insert greater insult next to the word here) tags. Many of whom say they scroll across B&C/Warseer(etc) frequently. I also believe that none of the mods here never visit those sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 A little more on topic, I just had an idea. True, the SW codex might feel a little weird to use to field a Chaos army, since they've already got a codex, but I think it might finally be a good codex to use to represent The Fallen. (Yeah, unfortunately, SW troops are dirt cheap, but maybe a Ragnar-Wolf Guard army will represent the Fallen better) Yes? No? Am I completely out of my mind? Don't answer that last question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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