Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[bigaldo]

unless the big E had the Heresy planned.....struck down, worshipped, ready to become a full fledged warp god......but nooo...stupid Lords of Terra had to hook him up to the Golden throne so he wouldnt be able to be reborn.

 

Which would mean the Chaos Gods were telling the truth all along and Horus was totally justified in everything he did... awesome :( I love it when the bad guys are vindicated.

[Legatus]

and then instead of rushing straight back to help out dad and the fellow brothers in arms as ordered. they decide to sit back go slow and take the scenic route back, and then arrive to late to do bugger all and come up with the saddest excuse ever.

(...)

can all ultra-smurfs just admit it once and for all, you took your time cos you were scared that your shiny blue armour would get dented.

Isn't it kind of ironic that a Dark Angels players would raise such an accusation? What, wasn't it Jonson who was waiting which side would win before intervening? Who specifically gave Perturabo the Siege weapons just so he could later swoop in and save the day?*

 

*I don't give anything on Black Library made up stuff, but Dark Angels players should be the last to stick their nose out about the issue of arriving late at Terra. Half the Dark Angels betraying the Emperor is not enough of shame to keep a low profile?

 

That the accusations are made up or based on fan-fic or something is a different matter altogether, but Gree has already adressed that.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

and then instead of rushing straight back to help out dad and the fellow brothers in arms as ordered. they decide to sit back go slow and take the scenic route back, and then arrive to late to do bugger all and come up with the saddest excuse ever.

(...)

can all ultra-smurfs just admit it once and for all, you took your time cos you were scared that your shiny blue armour would get dented.

Isn't it kind of ironic that a Dark Angels players would raise such an accusation? What, wasn't it Jonson who was waiting which side would win before intervening? Who specifically gave Perturabo the Siege weapons just so he could later swoop in and save the day?*

 

*I don't give anything on Black Library made up stuff, but Dark Angels players should be the last to stick their nose out about the issue of arriving late at Terra. Half the Dark Angels betraying the Emperor is not enough of shame to keep a low profile?

 

That the accusations are made up or based on fan-fic or something is a different matter altogether, but Gree has already adressed that.

 

Except that the reason we go delayed was Leman Russ and his insistance that we kick every rebel rear we found on the way. And there were many. The Smurf haven't got that excuse.

 

Yes, we could have left him behind, but then we'd be hearing about how we "abandoned a brother in the time of need" for all time. And the Pups know how to nag about such things. Just look at how they treat their Primarch striking ours in a hissy-fit! :)

[Legatus]

K, so baby-sitting the Wolves is a legitimate excuse, but destroying a traitor fleet that is on its way to reinforce Horus is not. Talk about double standards...

[shamen]

Look if i want to accuse ultra-smurfs of being part of some big blue armoured conspiracy then i will, and would you believe it ive read most of the fluff and used to think they were okay (i even used to play smurfs :) ). but it was the whole gulliman wrote the codex and all marines there after had to follow it or be called heretic that made me do a rethink, i mean how the hell did one primarch get so much power after the heresy that he was able to take control of every aspect of the imperial military, he was more or less supreme commander of the imperium for awhile.

 

so okay most of my evidence is speculation on my part, but ill try and sum up my evidence as ive seen it.

 

1) ive read the fluff for the battle with the wordbearers and it never actually states that it was just the 4th company, it states that the legion was amassing at calth for there next warzone, with the 4th company actually on calth when the wordbearers arrived pretending to be loyal marines then without warning attacked the ultramarines ships which crippled most of the fleet. so while i will agree that only the 4th company engaged the word bearer in battle, the whole ultramarines legion was there when the attack happened why else would gulliman be there?

 

2) as for the time it took to get back to terra, it states that the dark angels and spacewolves were only a day away from terra when the final battle between big E and Horus happened, and also that the ultramarine werent far behind them. but one of the last legions to arrive back at terra were the ultramarines close to full strength, and according the fluff were then able to more or less protect the imperium single handedly until the other legions were able to reinenforce the ultramarines. now i maybe reading to much into this, but why didnt anyone question why the ultramarines took so long to get back and also ask questions about the traitor reinforcements that just happened to delay the ultramarines when they were need most on terra? looks to me a case of the victors writing history in there own unique way.

 

So this is just my opinion, i dont ask anyone to agree or disagree. its just the facts as i see them dont add up, and until there is a definitive unbiased history published which sheds light on it then ill carry on questioning the motives of the ultramarines. cos as far as i am concerned its funny how in the 40k imperium most marine foundings use ultramarine geneseed when other legions geneseed which are just as pure get used less and less with each founding, and also that the all the rules and regulations that all chapters must follow by law is the codex astartes which was writen by...

 

...Roboute Gulliman primarch of said blue armoured pets of the Imperium.

 

Members of the Inquistion i rest my case!

[Gree]

Look if i want to accuse ultra-smurfs of being part of some big blue armoured conspiracy then i will, and would you believe it ive read most of the fluff and used to think they were okay (i even used to play smurfs :) ). but it was the whole gulliman wrote the codex and all marines there after had to follow it or be called heretic that made me do a rethink, i mean how the hell did one primarch get so much power after the heresy that he was able to take control of every aspect of the imperial military, he was more or less supreme commander of the imperium for awhile.

 

Because he was the best at organization and structure. He was essentially the only primarch who could od the job, the rest had broken legions or were going off on vengance quests.

 

1) ive read the fluff for the battle with the wordbearers and it never actually states that it was just the 4th company,

 

Where did I claim that they were the only ones? I don't recall posting that at all. I simply posted the relevant article from bith the 4th Company article and the Word Bearers article which both flat out stated that the Ultramarines where outnumbered and outgunned at Calth, yet they still won.

 

with the 4th company actually on calth when the wordbearers arrived pretending to be loyal marines then attacked without warning attacked the ultramarines fleet in a hit and run attack the crippled the fleet. so while i will agree that only the 4th company engaged the word bearer in battle, the whole ultramarines legion was there when the attack happened why else would gulliman be there?

 

Because the Word Bearers where effectivly fighting the Ultramarines when they were peicemental. It flat out says in both the 4th Company and Word Bearers articles that the Word Bearers outnumbered the Ultramarines.

 

2) as for the time it took to get back to terra, it states that the dark angels and spacewolves were only a day away from terra when the final battle between big E and Horus happened, and also that the ultramarine werent far behind them.

 

How do you know? The Ultramarines where on the Eastern Fringe, the Angels and Wolves where not, I can find no peice of fluff stating that the Ultramarines where near to the Angels or Wolves at the time.

 

but one of the last legions to arrive back at terra were the ultramarines close to full strength, and according the fluff were then able to more or less protect the imperium single handedly until the other legions were able to reinenforce the ultramarines. now i maybe reading to much into this, but why didnt anyone question why the ultramarines took so long to get back and also why no one asked about the traitor reinforcements that just happened to delay the ultramarines when they were need most on terra? looks to me a case of the victors writing history in the own unique way.

 

Because obviously they where father away. Unless you can find and quote the peice where it says the Ultramarines where not far off from the Dark Angels and Space Wolves then you don't really have a point.

 

So this is just my opinion, i dont ask anyone to agree or disagree. its just the facts as i see them dont add up, and until there is a definitive unbiased history published which sheds light on it then ill carry on questioning the motives of the ultramarines.

 

Not really, you are making pretty baseless assumptions and not quoting anything.

 

cos as far as i am concerned its funny how in the 40k imperium most marine foundings use ultramarine geneseed when other legions geneseed which are just as pure get used less and less which each founding, and also that the all the rules and regulations that all chapters must follow is the codex astartes which was writen by...

 

...Roboute Gulliman primarch of said blue armoured pets of the emperor.

 

Because 1. He had the purest geneseed. and 2. he was the only one who actually bothered to try and reorganize everything,

[Legatus]

but it was the whole gulliman wrote the codex and all marines there after had to follow it or be called heretic that made me do a rethink

The Legions did not have to organise their companies and squads according to the Codex doctrines, which was Guillimans main body of work. What they did have to do was split their Legions into smaller independent forces, which was a decree based on the terrible events of the horus heresy, and no Primarch was allowed to keep a full Legion. And as the Ultramarines had been the largest Legion they were giving up the most power of them all with that decision.

 

 

i mean how the hell did one primarch get so much power after the heresy that he was able to take control of every aspect of the imperial military

Because one of them had to.

 

"What happened next is a tribute to the skills and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A coucil was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor.

(...) The High Lords established the divisions of the Imperium that remain familiar to this day. (...) One of the most important of their accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armies. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the fleet, and the Space Marines."

2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 8.

 

I mean I can understand that some people are not that interrested in the Ultramarines or even don't like tham that much. But to take what is pretty much their Primarch's greatest achievement and then spin it into something selfish and underhanded seems a bit petty.

 

 

1) ive read the fluff for the battle with the wordbearers and it never actually states that it was just the 4th company, it states that the legion was amassing at calth for there next warzone, with the 4th company actually on calth when the wordbearers arrived pretending to be loyal marines then without warning attacked the ultramarines ships which crippled most of the fleet. so while i will agree that only the 4th company engaged the word bearer in battle, the whole ultramarines legion was there when the attack happened why else would gulliman be there?

I don't know which different sources described that battle, but the Index Astartes Word Bearers and Collected Visions descriptions put the Ultramarines at a numerical disadvantage both on Calth's surface and in terms of fleet size.

 

"Upon its surface, the Word Bearers fought the Ultramarines to a standstill. The traitors held superiority in numbers, weaponry and brutality, but the Ultramarines would never give in."

IA WB

 

"Guilliman began to organise a series of hit and run counterattacks with the few ships able to operate. (...) Even so, the loyalists faced a foe that outnumbered and outgunned them. Any losses weighed heavily against the Ultramarines whilst the traitors appeared to have an endless supply of fresh vessels."

Horus Heresy, Collected Visions, page 164

 

Evidently Kor Phareon had planned and prepared the attack on the Ultramarines quite well.

 

 

2) as for the time it took to get back to terra, it states that the dark angels and spacewolves were only a day away from terra when the final battle between big E and Horus happened, and also that the ultramarine werent far behind them. but one of the last legions to arrive back at terra were the ultramarines close to full strength, and according the fluff were then able to more or less protect the imperium single handedly until the other legions were able to reinenforce the ultramarines. now i maybe reading to much into this, but why didnt anyone question why the ultramarines took so long to get back and also ask questions about the traitor reinforcements that just happened to delay the ultramarines when they were need most on terra? looks to me a case of the victors writing history in there own unique way.

Not only did the Ultramarines had to travvel a greater distance, it also took longer for them to even learn of the events.

 

"Whilst the Horus Heresy plunged the Imperium into savagery and civil war, the Ultramarines were engaged on the southern edge of the Galaxy. Their very success had carried them far from Earth and isolated them from the conquering armies of Horus in the north-east. News of Horus' treachery did not even reach the Ultramarines until the attack on Earth was underway. Thanks to the speed of Horus's attack there was little that Roboute Guilliman could do."

2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, page 13

 

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines has that same text almost unaltered on it's page 13 as well, in case you are not fond of 2nd Edition sources.

 

 

So this is just my opinion, i dont ask anyone to agree or disagree. its just the facts as i see them dont add up

Then I willdo my best to point you towards the facts so that you might perhaps reexamine them for yourself. (I.E. I usually like to give citations and references.)

 

 

cos as far as i am concerned its funny how in the 40k imperium most marine foundings use ultramarine geneseed when other legions geneseed which are just as pure get used less and less with each founding

Well, the Ultramarine do have the purest geneseed by far (IA UM), so the other legions do not in fact have "just as pure" geneseed. Still:

 

Dark Angels: For some misterious reason the High Lords of Terra are reluctant to use their geneseed despite it having no known abberations.

 

White Scars: Stable and no abberations, but their successors display violent tendencies, which may or may not be because of an inherent genetic flaw.

 

Space Wolves: Highly unstable, and not used at all after the unsuccessful founding of the Wolf Brothers Chapter.

 

Imperial Fists: Stable, but two missing organs.

 

Blood Angels: Official records show no instability, but it is suspected. *wink*

 

Iron Hands: Because of the Chapter's reclusivenes and a fanatic treatment of "biological weaknes" a genetic flaw or aberation is suspected.

 

Salamanders: Appearently stable, expect for their slower reaction, which may or may not be genetic, but no 2nd founding successors due to the limited number of members after the heresy. Today it is not officially known whether there have been any successors at all, though some Chapters display similar traits. The mutations of the Black Dragons Chapter have raised suspicion that the Salamanders gene-seed may be flawed after all.

 

Raven Guard: "Far from stable" (IA RG). Chapter even needs gene-seed influx from terra on order to maintain full strength.

 

 

and also that the all the rules and regulations that all chapters must follow by law is the codex astartes which was writen by...

 

...Roboute Gulliman primarch of said blue armoured pets of the Imperium.

And the rule that all other Chapters must follow is: Forces have to stay limited to about 1000 fighting warriors (can be more intimes of prolonged war). There is also the part about controlled creation of gene-seed and training of recruits, so as not to be as susceptible to Chaos influence as the accelerated methods during the great crusade had made them. The rest is optional.

 

See for example the Black Templar or Imperial Fists Index Astartes. The dispute was all about the division of the Legions, which Dorn and Russ did not want to do. It was never about how to organise a company or a Chapter.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

2) as for the time it took to get back to terra, it states that the dark angels and spacewolves were only a day away from terra when the final battle between big E and Horus happened, and also that the ultramarine werent far behind them.

How do you know? The Ultramarines where on the Eastern Fringe, the Angels and Wolves where not, I can find no peice of fluff stating that the Ultramarines where near to the Angels or Wolves at the time.

 

I have seen fluff (though for the life of me I cannot remember where, it might be Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace) that stated that Horus lowered his flagship's shields and allowed the Emperor on board because time was running out - the other Loyalists were fast approaching (the DA and SW in the lead) and he didn't have enough time to break into the palace and 'damage' the Emperor before finishing him off.

 

It doesn't say that the Ultramarines were near to the DAs and SWs, but all three were bearing down on Terra.

 

And the rule that all other Chapters must follow is: Forces have to stay limited to about 1000 fighting warriors (can be more intimes of prolonged war). There is also the part about controlled creation of gene-seed and training of recruits, so as not to be as susceptible to Chaos influence as the accelerated methods during the great crusade had made them. The rest is optional.

 

One more that is not optional: Astartes fleets must not include ships tailored for pure space combat above escort size, they must specialise in planetary bombardment/assault. The Astartes cannot be allowed to challenge the primacy of the Imperial Navy.

[shamen]

ive never once said i actually hated ultramarines or there player, and i have definitly not tried to go out of my way to insult or offend anyone. i was just putting my own point of view of how the fluff looks to me, as best as i can remember what ive read in the past.

 

and to all the beardy people out there who constantly ask for page by page quotes of stuff ive read ill happily point out that unless you think i own every rule book, back copy of white dwarf and every codex ever written, and must reread every hh book and give you a page by page list of everything ive read ill tell you now i dont, and if i could i wouldnt for the simple fact that id be here til the end of the world reading and typing.

 

if i knew i would get this much stick over a theory, id of gone to the inquistion and had my mind wiped. now i can see why the dark angels keep secret lol

 

The Holy Inquistion: Questioning everything, but proving nothing!

[Gree]

ive never once said i actually hated ultramarines or there player, and i have definitly not tried to go out of my way to insult or offend anyone. i was just putting my own point of view of how the fluff looks to me, as best as i can remember what ive read in the past.

 

That's nice, however your own view of the fluff is not the same of what is actually written down. In addition your memory may not be perfect and would certainly mess up some details. My advice next time is to actually research your topic before you post.

 

and to all the beardy people out there who constantly ask for page by page quotes of stuff ive read ill happily point out that unless you think i own every rule book, back copy of white dwarf and every codex ever written, and must reread every hh book and give you a page by page list of everything ive read ill tell you now i dont, and if i could i wouldnt for the simple fact that id be here til the end of the world reading and typing.

 

You do not need to own everything, simply the relevant fluff in question. In any case information on the Battle of Calth is readily avalible. In any case your points have been proven to be wrong by multiple different fluff sources. You do not need every peice of fluff ever, just the ones that are actually relevant.

 

The Holy Inquistion: Questioning everything, but proving nothing!

 

Accusing others will not cover up the fact that you made an assumption and are wrong.

[Legatus]

ive never once said i actually hated ultramarines or there player, and i have definitly not tried to go out of my way to insult or offend anyone. i was just putting my own point of view of how the fluff looks to me, as best as i can remember what ive read in the past.

And I am making an effort point out the sources where those details are discussed to argue that your memories might be colored by what looks a bit like predetermined disapproval for the Ultramarines.

 

Edit: My posts can get quite lengthy, and I assume posting after someone arguing the same thing, but in a more "confrontational tone", I hope my posts do not come across more agressive then I intend or they would otherwise be perceived.

[Caducus morbidus]

Actually IIRC the purest geneseed was that of the Night Lords and Blood Angels though neither of them are used due to certain conditions.

[Legatus]

Blood Angels Index Astartes:

"It is theorised by some that errors in replication have resulted in the Blood Angels' developement of a genetic flaw. (...) it is for their unstoppable thirst for battle that the Blood Angels are considered unstable."

 

Night Lords Index Astartes:

"The gene-seed of the Night Lords seems to be surprisingly pure. In fact, of all the Chaos Space Marine Legions, the Night Lords seem to bear the least evidence of mutation."

 

Ultramarines Index Astartes:

"The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations. (...) it can truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman himself."

 

So, no, YDNRC.

[Tutteman]

Except that the reason we go delayed was Leman Russ and his insistance that we kick every rebel rear we found on the way. And there were many. The Smurf haven't got that excuse.

But they do have the excuse "we were sent all the way across the Galaxy deliberately to make sure we couldn't do anything."

 

About Guilliman, surely he had the most to lose by splitting all legions up? He had the biggest legion and while you may argue the Ultra's sucessors are loyal to him, surely they would be even more loyal when he was their Official CO? If he was doing some coup/takeover type thing surely he would have simply demanded it there and then rather than going for some complicated plot? No one else really could exert the required control.

 

Corax - Busy trying to re build his legion/playing mad professor

Ferrus (Yay, my one) - Busy being dead (boooo)

Sanguinius - Busy being dead

Vulcan - Busy being dead

Dorn - Busy feeling guilty over "failure" to protect the Emperor. Goes on mini hate crusade

The Lion - Busy heading beack to his home world to find it's being naughty, destroying it...

Russ - ...do you really think this guy would be trusted? his public persona was of a barbarian/madman

Khan - No idea what he was up to...But eventually plays chase some Dark Eldar.

 

Which leaves the organisational genius...Only three Primarchs were really in the position to re build the Imperium. Khan, Russ and Guiliman. Be honest, Russ may be smarter then people give him credit but if he'd turned out a manual on how to stop the Heresy happening would anyone really read it? Or woulld they think Russ was having a laugh/just explaining how to hit things.

Khan, no idea, don't know much of him other than the basic master of hit and run. He contributed to the Codex.

 

I'm disappointed in no one, but those Chaos gods...man did they screw up ;)

 

EDIT: Actually Leman contributed to the Codex/Imperial Military Manuals too! (I knew he was smarter than he pretends to be)

[shamen]

well i see everyones point and i will agree that my memory maybe playing tricks on me, but it was just a fun theory that ive been playing around with since reading the collected visions and hh novels. and lets be honest there has been a few people who say something they believe is true, and hardly anyone corrects them.

 

im 25+ years of age and been into 40k for about 20 years, so it aint like im some newbie who is just randomly making comments, so i think my knowledge of 40k is desent enough to be able to comment in general. now can we finally drop the subject and get back to enjoying a discussion i think is the best one so far (even if there are a few traitors and inquistorial spys hiding around here, lol.)

[Elias Tigris]

*I don't give anything on Black Library made up stuff, but Dark Angels players should be the last to stick their nose out about the issue of arriving late at Terra. Half the Dark Angels betraying the Emperor is not enough of shame to keep a low profile?

 

Technically you don't know that ;)

 

And, though I would generally defend a fellow son of the lion, I think that these UM players who have been tearing apart my brother arise excellent points. I have earlier established that I was most disappointed with the Dark Angels during the heresy, though I don't believe the Black Library's little, "Johnson was waiting to see what would happen" thing, I do think that half of their legion turning due to Johnson's foolish pride and subroutines was about as disappointing as it gets. We are the first, proud sons of the Lion. Before that we were proud sons of the Order, which was led by Johnson and Luther. Johnson betrays Luther, many angry marines will follow him. Though Luther was not as big as the lion he was a tremendous leader and very charismatic (which Johnson apparently wasn't so charismatic.)

 

Ultramarines had to take out the Word Bearers on the way back, not to mention they were the furthest from Terra when they found out what happened. The Wolves and DA were on the way and probably would have made it quicker had it not been for a certain Primarch wanting to liberate everyone on the way =p In the end though Horus was the one sending these legions away. All three met with traitor legions on the way back (though my memory is a little foggy for this) If I recall correctly, Ultras met the Word Bearers, DA ran into Konrad, and the Wolves got to deal with Alpha Legion.

 

So in conclusion, the biggest disappointment was the Emperor himself. He was the greatest psycher of the age, he should have seen this coming. He gave all of this power to Horus, made a few of his other sons bitter (haha Johnson =P) some even hated him (Angron for example). He banned using magic, further straining a relationship with the Thousand Sons, and when Big Red tried to warn him about what was happening, he unleashed the Wolves, and when Horus heard that, he warped it a bit to meet his own needs. Congrats Emperor, your blindness was the cause of your own demise.

 

~Elias~

 

*edit*

 

"Which leaves the organisational genius...Only three Primarchs were really in the position to re build the Imperium. Khan, Russ and Guiliman. Be honest, Russ may be smarter then people give him credit but if he'd turned out a manual on how to stop the Heresy happening would anyone really read it? Or woulld they think Russ was having a laugh/just explaining how to hit things."

 

I laughed so hard xP I think that if Russ organized the legions it would make it more interesting, though he would probably take the entire imperium into the warp after the traitors (kinda like what he did with his 13th company =P)

[shamen]

Except that the reason we go delayed was Leman Russ and his insistance that we kick every rebel rear we found on the way. And there were many. The Smurf haven't got that excuse.

 

Vulcan - Busy being dead

 

 

Vulcan aint dead, and i know this is fact as its stated that he disagreed with splitting the legions after the heresy then wasnt heard from again.

 

though if anyone wants to correct me i wont mind, my memory aint what it used to be ;) pmsl

[Tutteman]

"Which leaves the organisational genius...Only three Primarchs were really in the position to re build the Imperium. Khan, Russ and Guiliman. Be honest, Russ may be smarter then people give him credit but if he'd turned out a manual on how to stop the Heresy happening would anyone really read it? Or woulld they think Russ was having a laugh/just explaining how to hit things."

 

I laughed so hard xP I think that if Russ organized the legions it would make it more interesting, though he would probably take the entire imperium into the warp after the traitors (kinda like what he did with his 13th company =P)

 

This idea made me laugh ;)

 

And on Vulkan it is entirely possible I'm wrong, it's just I seem to remember Vulkan disappearing in some massive fireball in the middle of the Dropsite massacre but I'll check... (goes onto google search) HE SURVIVE ISTVAAN!

 

Good catch there, yes so Vulkan survived also, I'll revise my thing to four primarches. However it should be noted Vulkan was busy hiding large spaceships, cloaks and other technological marvels about the galaxy.

[Legatus]

I just wanted to point out that I do like the Dark Angels quite a lot. Not that anyone gets the impression I am bashing them or anything. They were actually the second of the "big four" I started collecting.

 

I don't think I contributed who I am disappointed in yet. Well, the loyalista ll pretty much did everything they could, and some had just more luck than others. No incompetence there as far as I am concerned. The traitors, well if we are talking "virtues" then they all disappoint for betraying the Emperor and mankind. But I cannot really say that I am disappointed, because it meant we now get evil power armoured monster warriors from hell. They actually live in a "event horizon/hellraiser" dimension of terror, war and suffering, and occasionally come out to bring hell on an imperial world. So, no, I am not disappointed. Though to be honest, I allways found that the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion had pretty weak reasons to betray the Emperor.

[shamen]

actually im 90% certain all the surviving loyal primarchs, a few traitors and even the odd dead primarch all contributed to the codex astates and other imperial military tactical guides and books written after the heresy, though im guessing rowboat just erased a lot of the traitors contributions.

 

even though most of my other anti-smurf propaganda mite of been 90% not sure and 10% correct, ive had time to re-evaluate things. so yes gulliman was very good at what he did and was very able to use the ultramarines strength in numbers and ability to recruit new marines quickly at a time when corax, vulkan and the iron hands were barely able to carry on fighting at legion strength.

now here is where i feel gulliman disappoints me he may of possibly lost the respect from his brothers by taking the burden of protecting and reorganising the imperium on himself instead of delegating it to the likes of dorn, russ, khan or vulkan. which in turn could of been the possible reason why dorn, russ and vulkan all hated the idea of breaking the legions whilst the imperium was still under threat. i have omitted the lion and the dark angels from this list due to the fact as has been stated in others post we did have a slight problem with 25% of our legion going awol on wine and cheese. but for that im sure the lion would have wholeheartedly offer to help gulliman in the defence of the post heresy imperium, and that is my humble opinion based on my re-evaluated thinking and evidence.

 

ill shall now go back to insulting big gay kor pheron and his bum chums erebus and lorgar ;) lol

[Gree]

now here is where i feel gulliman disappoints me he may of possibly lost the respect from his brothers by taking the burden of protecting and reorganising the imperium on himself instead of delegating it to the likes of dorn, russ, khan or vulkan.

 

They did, nobody said that the Ultramarines single-handedly protected the Imperium, they provided more than half the amount of Marines in the field (IA Ultramarines), but they did not do it single handedly. Dorn led the Fists in hunting down traitors, Russ and Khan too, The Salamanders took massive losses at Istaavan and were probably rebuilding for most of the time. Plus, depending on what version you read, Vulkan disappeared at Istavaan. The problems over the codex resulted from independance problems between the brothers.

[Legatus]

The siege tactics of Perturabo were kept, on the other Primarch contributions there is no information that I know of.

 

I never got the impression that the other surviving Primarchs have resented Guillimans actions after the heresy. It allways seems to be repesented unequivocal as a great achievement. When it came to dividing the Legions there was protest, but that is a different issue from the legislative position Guilliman had in the council and from his command over the defense of the Imperium. Do you think Russ would have wanted to be a council member? Or Dorn at that particular time? I don't think he was in the mood for politics. Jonson might have wanted to have a say, but he was not around anymore.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Most disappointing? Let me list off the most prominent.

 

Word Bearers: Apparantly the only Primarch not to get the memo that the Emperor was creating a secular empire. And one chastisement, ONE, and the punk sulks for a month before deciding to burn down the entire Imperium. Honestly, how can one justify that?

 

Iron Warriors: Oh. boo hoo. You got the lame jobs. Well, how bout putting int a simple "R&R" request? Not hard. Stand up for your Legion. As a previous poster mentioned, the Ultras did garrison work as well, but they tended to help rebuild the planets they arrived at and worked with the populace, so they had a great standardized recruitment method going on. The IW really could have used some PR relations training. All in all I get a very large sense of "unjust resentment" coming from ol' Paranoid Perturabo. I don't blame him for hating Rogal Dorn, the guys a douche after all, but c'mon! That means you get your bigger brothers to power wedge him or something, prank him, something. But not "Burn down the whole Imperium!"

 

World Eaters: Ok. Slighted honor, poor dead battle bros (aka frothing psychotic scum), blah blah blah. That excuse doesn't work after killing for the Emperor and turning your own Legion into bloodthirsty suicide troops. Had Angron's later actions not completely invalidated his objections to the Emperor's actions on his homeworld, I could understand turning. Besides, he had been fighting for the Imperium for some time when the Heresy broke out. Get over it.

 

 

Most Impressed with:

Ultramarines: The only Primarch who had a PLAN after it all went to hell. The power of the the Legions could not be placed in one persons hands anymore. I can forgive them not being at the Siege of Terra simply because they were a) so far away and B ) so did ALOT of the loyalist legions.

 

Raven Guard: I like the story. Corax tried a desperate gamble to get his Legion back up to snuff and when it went Frankenstein-level of wrong, he removed the errors himself. The whole dissapearing thing, meh. Seemed to be a trend with the Primarchs. (Russ, Vulkan, Corax)

 

Salamander: Ok, I got no justification for this. I' m just putting them in here as a shameless plug because I like the character of the Legion/Chapter/Primarch.

 

 

Side Note: I loved the old Alpha Legion justification for turning traitor: Because they could. Alpharius met the Big E all of handful of times, closer to Horus, and had no problem backing Horus' power play for the throne.

I still do not consider this moronic "double Primarch (NO ONE NOTICED! TEE HEE! GRAND JOKE), Really Good but Turning to Chaos" junk the HH series is putting out there to be official/or a good idea.

 

Only mentioning it because they would fall under both "Impressed with" and "Dissapointed with" category, depending on which fluff one goes with.

[Elias Tigris]

"Raven Guard: I like the story. Corax tried a desperate gamble to get his Legion back up to snuff and when it went Frankenstein-level of wrong, he removed the errors himself. The whole dissapearing thing, meh. Seemed to be a trend with the Primarchs. (Russ, Vulkan, Corax)"

 

I like them too but I have to point out that Russ didn't just disappear, he took his 13th legion into the warp with him after the traitors to destroy them. Not really the same as disappearing, more along the lines of Russ being Russ, that impulsive guy who takes it to the baddies, no matter what he has to do.

[Octavulg]

Tutteman:

About Guilliman, surely he had the most to lose by splitting all legions up? He had the biggest legion and while you may argue the Ultra's sucessors are loyal to him, surely they would be even more loyal when he was their Official CO? If he was doing some coup/takeover type thing surely he would have simply demanded it there and then rather than going for some complicated plot? No one else really could exert the required control.

 

Guilliman gets every single chapter at least paying lip service to his ideas and his precepts. He trades command of a legion for the knowledge that everyone is doing things his way. And for some people, that's a powerful motivator.

 

Elias Tigris:

Though Luther was not as big as the lion he was a tremendous leader and very charismatic (which Johnson apparently wasn't so charismatic.)

 

You do not go far enough. Luther was a leader. The Lion was not. He was a commander. There's a very pronounced difference. Remember who it is that talks the Order into doing things, who sells Jonson's ideas. Jonson's successes are all directly attributable to Luther - arguably more to him than to Jonson. Especially considering which one of them's a Primarch.

 

Legatus:

 

The siege tactics of Perturabo were kept, on the other Primarch contributions there is no information that I know of.

 

Careful. While there is no other information, assuming that Guilliman created the rest himself would seem to err, especially in light of the fact that IA: Codex Astartes (IIRC) explains how thousands of warriors have contributed to the Codex. I mean, maybe that's Guilliman and Perturabo, and everyone else is afterwards, but...

 

The other interesting thing is that Perturabo's contribution is mentioned in the form of a large part of the codex which looks like something he wrote. Which implies the contents is unattributed. Which...is interesting.

 

Ubermensch Commander:

World Eaters: Ok. Slighted honor, poor dead battle bros (aka frothing psychotic scum), blah blah blah. That excuse doesn't work after killing for the Emperor and turning your own Legion into bloodthirsty suicide troops. Had Angron's later actions not completely invalidated his objections to the Emperor's actions on his homeworld, I could understand turning. Besides, he had been fighting for the Imperium for some time when the Heresy broke out. Get over it.

 

You're assuming that he comes under the influence of Khorne after working for the Emperor. Personally, I subscribe to the view that he fell to/was first influenced by Chaos in the wake of the Emperor's betrayal of him (look, it's kidnapping. That's a betrayal). In that light, it looks a little different (and makes the character rather more consistent).