Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[c-wrex]

I think part of the deal is that the primarchs were so obsessed with detail and precision in their actions, that they often over thought and over reacted to any criticisms of their methods and motivations. Very few of the primarchs were able to just let their brothers/father do their thing their own way. Vulkan, Alpharius/Omegon, Magnus, Horus, and Sanguinius are the only primarchs who come to mind who never fought with their brothers over how they chose to make war. Most of the rest held some very strong opinions on how things ought to be done (Dorn, Corax, Mortarion, and Russ refusing to fight alongside psykers, for example), and became upset (often violently) when their brothers would continue to go on their own way.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think part of the deal is that the primarchs were so obsessed with detail and precision in their actions, that they often over thought and over reacted to any criticisms of their methods and motivations. Very few of the primarchs were able to just let their brothers/father do their thing their own way. Vulkan, Alpharius/Omegon, Magnus, Horus, and Sanguinius are the only primarchs who come to mind who never fought with their brothers over how they chose to make war. Most of the rest held some very strong opinions on how things ought to be done (Dorn, Corax, Mortarion, and Russ refusing to fight alongside psykers, for example), and became upset (often violently) when their brothers would continue to go on their own way.

 

a quick run through of your list:

alpharius/omegron: fueded with guilliman on their different views of military tactics.

magnus: fueded with russ, and all who opposed the use of psychers

horus: created a fued with corax over victory stealing

 

on vulkan and sanguinius, not enough has been written on vulkan to know much about his attitudes during the HH, and sanguinies is pretty much perfect by the views of most primarchs. if horus hadnt curb stomped him i would think he was a mary sue to be honest.

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

a quick run through of your list:

alpharius/omegron: fueded with guilliman on their different views of military tactics.

magnus: fueded with russ, and all who opposed the use of psychers

horus: created a fued with corax over victory stealing

 

on vulkan and sanguinius, not enough has been written on vulkan to know much about his attitudes during the HH, and sanguinies is pretty much perfect by the views of most primarchs. if horus hadnt curb stomped him i would think he was a mary sue to be honest.

 

WLK

 

I think the Russ/Magnus feud was honestly principally on Russ. Now, I don't have any source material, so feel free to point it out, but I don't know of any instance where Magnus was yelling at Russ and telling him he was a nutty barbarian for not studying more. Additionally, The Alp/Om feud with RG was more through Guilliman unnecessarily criticizing the efforts of the Alpha Legion, but the AL operated independently most of the time so never really argued/fought back since they didn't really care what anybody thought of them, nor cared how anyone else did their business. And true, Horus and Corax did have some beef, I forgot that one.

 

Thoughts?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

a quick run through of your list:

alpharius/omegron: fueded with guilliman on their different views of military tactics.

magnus: fueded with russ, and all who opposed the use of psychers

horus: created a fued with corax over victory stealing

 

on vulkan and sanguinius, not enough has been written on vulkan to know much about his attitudes during the HH, and sanguinies is pretty much perfect by the views of most primarchs. if horus hadnt curb stomped him i would think he was a mary sue to be honest.

 

WLK

 

I think the Russ/Magnus feud was honestly principally on Russ. Now, I don't have any source material, so feel free to point it out, but I don't know of any instance where Magnus was yelling at Russ and telling him he was a nutty barbarian for not studying more. Additionally, The Alp/Om feud with RG was more through Guilliman unnecessarily criticizing the efforts of the Alpha Legion, but the AL operated independently most of the time so never really argued/fought back since they didn't really care what anybody thought of them, nor cared how anyone else did their business. And true, Horus and Corax did have some beef, I forgot that one.

 

Thoughts?

 

While at this point and time, i dont know of any 1k on Russ violence, but i think that is going to be fixed once more balanced (or less balanced?) pieces come out on this. But, while not violent, the grudge felt by Magnus towards ALL of the anti-psycher Primarchs is too great to be ignored.

and i dont think the AL had actual time to turn their grudge into a fight against the UM, they were barely getting established prestige-wise to take on the more "glorious" UM.

however, you ask for violence on the one that makes Magnus look bad, but accept that Horus and Corax had beef? the Horus/Corax beef never turned violent either, but is theirs more acceptable than the previous two grudges? If anything, Magnus's grudge should rankle deeper as the wound to his pride after Nikea was far more devastating.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

but the AL operated independently most of the time so never really argued/fought back since they didn't really care what anybody thought of them

*cough* What? :lol: Oh, that's just the reason for why they turned...

 

Though the youngest, or perhaps because of it, the Alpha Legion sought to outshine its brethren in all things, as if to prove their worthiness amidst the older legions. Their pride led to a number of incidents where members of the Alpha Legion clashed with and even fought against members of the other legions in existence at that time. In particular there seems to have been a strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists as they clashed on more than one occasion prior to the Heresy.

3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 32.

[Tyyr]

"Oh noes, my god is not a god!" And he falls to Chaos... To me this smacks of being a little light in the brain case. He had plenty of options. And one of those was to simply keep worshipping and not making a public thing of it. And the band example is rather poor. Especially since I've been there. And I didn't change. I simply kept my mouth shut about it, and kept going.

 

And if you're right about Lorgar not being able to cope, he falls even lower in my esteem...

 

FYI, I'm an atheist. Apostate, in fact. If a normal human can do it, a Primarch who can't is rather poor.

Not even remotely similar. Lorgar didn't just believe in god, the man was the greatest champion of his religion. He converted his entire world to his religion then fought a holy war against half of it when he declared their god was coming and they'd better get ready. Then a year after this massive war is finished the clouds part, a golden ship descends and just like he prophesied his golden god stepped out looking for HIM. And then his god declares, "Nice religion, burn it. There is no god, you're wrong, fall in line and start turning everyone else into good little atheists. Bye." The man had everything he was, everything he'd lived for crushed in a single moment by the man he thought was his god. That's not something you just shrug your shoulders and get on with life after.

 

its easy to say they should have spent more time together, played catch, and so on, but the Emperor was leading an empire. i dont think running a empire gives you time to stop, smell the roses and engage religious fanatics (which lograr was) in theology debates just because he cant cope with the way things are.

 

now lets picture this same empire on a galaxy wide crusade... the emperor's free time is saved for sleeping and recovering from crusading. holding the hands of people who refuse to face facts isnt one of them.

 

the only thing i would say against the EMperor is the mistake of allowing lograr command of any armed force. that is the only real red flag i see.

A mistake that could have been fixed by... spending some time with Lorgar. No one's suggesting that the Emperor sit down with Lorgar and share a hamburger, toss the football around, and try to make up for lost time. What we're suggesting is that he take a day or two, just a freaking day or two, to find out a little about the man he's going to entrust 1/20th of the most powerful military force in the history of the galaxy to. Just a day or two to find out where his head is. That's all it would have taken to spot issues with Lorgar, Angron, Cruze, and not give them legions. Yeah he was in the middle of a crusade but this was just ever so slightly important, ya know?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Primarchs have trouble dealing with the mudane. What may be a small deal to you is a much bigger deal to someone who is capable of understanding things far more comprehensively than you.

 

Then this Primarch in particular is the weakest of the Primarchs. And still low in my esteem.

 

Not even remotely similar. Lorgar didn't just believe in god, the man was the greatest champion of his religion. He converted his entire world to his religion then fought a holy war against half of it when he declared their god was coming and they'd better get ready. Then a year after this massive war is finished the clouds part, a golden ship descends and just like he prophesied his golden god stepped out looking for HIM. And then his god declares, "Nice religion, burn it. There is no god, you're wrong, fall in line and start turning everyone else into good little atheists. Bye." The man had everything he was, everything he'd lived for crushed in a single moment by the man he thought was his god. That's not something you just shrug your shoulders and get on with life after.

 

All he got was an order to stop being a missionary and start being a warrior first and foremost. And that is after many, many decades of the Emperor himself and many others, including his brother Primarchs, telling him that the Imperial Truth is secular. Lorgar decided to be a missionary first and foremost, and was told to start being a warrior first and foremost instead. He was told to stop converting people to a religion, and stop building temples, and instead conquer planets and let the follow-up elements take care of the rest. And he was devastated. "Father doesn't like that I worship him, and wants me to stop making worshippers and temples wherever I go, so I'll go find a true god!"

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. None of the other Primarchs have, thus far, shown themselves this weak. The nearest we got is Fulgrim and his arrogant prancing.

[Mr. Sandbot]

wait, what official source states Corax was against psykers? I know Mortarion and Russ were, but it just seems out of place for him to dislike psykers.

 

Back on topic, Legion wise:

Dark Angels- its cute that half your legion went traitor. I honestly don't care.

Space Wolves - Needs more character than "I am pissed. I want drunk. More meat. Kill." I still love their amazing shenanigans.

Night Lords - when your entire legion only wants to fight women and children, it normally says something about you. I would think scaring a space marine would be more fun.

Iron Hands - Hate the primarch. But the legion is okay by me.

World Eaters - So much depth gone to waste once they joined Khorne. Its like watching a shakespearean tragedy get directed by Uwe Boll.

Thousand Sons - dislike magnus for the lack of metaphorical testicular fortitude to do anything. The Legion and back story are interesting though.

[Pacific81]

World Eaters - So much depth gone to waste once they joined Khorne. Its like watching a shakespearean tragedy get directed by Uwe Boll.

 

Haha that really made me laugh :lol:

 

Apparently the new Space Wolf HH novel by Dan Abnett is going to flesh out the Wolves into a new direction beyond 'drunkard vikings in space', will be interesting to see what he comes up with!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

wait, what official source states Corax was against psykers? I know Mortarion and Russ were, but it just seems out of place for him to dislike psykers.

 

Back on topic, Legion wise:

Dark Angels- its cute that half your legion went traitor. I honestly don't care.

Space Wolves - Needs more character than "I am pissed. I want drunk. More meat. Kill." I still love their amazing shenanigans.

Night Lords - when your entire legion only wants to fight women and children, it normally says something about you. I would think scaring a space marine would be more fun.

Iron Hands - Hate the primarch. But the legion is okay by me.

World Eaters - So much depth gone to waste once they joined Khorne. Its like watching a shakespearean tragedy get directed by Uwe Boll.

Thousand Sons - dislike magnus for the lack of metaphorical testicular fortitude to do anything. The Legion and back story are interesting though.

 

I had to look up Uwe Boll; turns out I was missing out on nothing.

 

Don't like Ferrus Manus, why?

 

Don't like Magnus, why?

 

I agree on WE.

 

I think I'd prefer it if it was all still 30K. No Heresy. Everyone is happy. The Imperium murders the baddies, cause that is what we said they are, the Brothers are all still following the Emperor, the sun is shining, birds are singing. Lovely. :lol:

[Mr. Sandbot]

wait, what official source states Corax was against psykers? I know Mortarion and Russ were, but it just seems out of place for him to dislike psykers.

 

Back on topic, Legion wise:

Dark Angels- its cute that half your legion went traitor. I honestly don't care.

Space Wolves - Needs more character than "I am pissed. I want drunk. More meat. Kill." I still love their amazing shenanigans.

Night Lords - when your entire legion only wants to fight women and children, it normally says something about you. I would think scaring a space marine would be more fun.

Iron Hands - Hate the primarch. But the legion is okay by me.

World Eaters - So much depth gone to waste once they joined Khorne. Its like watching a shakespearean tragedy get directed by Uwe Boll.

Thousand Sons - dislike magnus for the lack of metaphorical testicular fortitude to do anything. The Legion and back story are interesting though.

 

I had to look up Uwe Boll; turns out I was missing out on nothing.

 

Don't like Ferrus Manus, why?

 

Don't like Magnus, why?

 

I agree on WE.

 

I think I'd prefer it if it was all still 30K. No Heresy. Everyone is happy. The Imperium murders the baddies, cause that is what we said they are, the Brothers are all still following the Emperor, the sun is shining, birds are singing. Lovely. :(

 

:) hahaha I have to agree with that. But to me, it would still need more dark and grit to keep my attention. Otherwise everything seems a little too flat and without character.

 

Ferrus threw temper tantrums in the same way a prepubecent 12 year old girl would. Hardly the behavior a primarch of an entire legion focused on purging weakness should act. As a result of his temper, he also abandoned two of his brothers (and their respective legions) in order to pursue his own personal vendetta against Fulgrim while bringing more of his men to a pointless death. There was a moment during that book that I really had to think "what if Ferrus didn't PMS like a pregnant woman, would things be different?" and my first thought was "No. But I still hate how he makes me feel like I'm reading the novellization of MTV."

 

I have a very complicated like/dislike for Magnus. I mean, I love how the stories paint him out to be a tragic hero, betrayed by his father (which is why I love playing them since it seems like the legion under magnus is still out for the imperium/galaxy to burn), but I dislike how his unwillingness to challenge the emperor's belief on sorcery led to an inflation of his ambition, and as a result, he tried to both save the imperium and prove his philosophies correct. For a situation that dire, an intelligent being such as Magnus should be able to realize his Empire comes before his personal beliefs for that particular moment.

:( see now I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I have a very complicated like/dislike for Magnus. I mean, I love how the stories paint him out to be a tragic hero, betrayed by his father (which is why I love playing them since it seems like the legion under magnus is still out for the imperium/galaxy to burn), but I dislike how his unwillingness to challenge the emperor's belief on sorcery led to an inflation of his ambition, and as a result, he tried to both save the imperium and prove his philosophies correct. For a situation that dire, an intelligent being such as Magnus should be able to realize his Empire comes before his personal beliefs for that particular moment.

:D see now I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore.

 

I think I understand what you are saying.

 

Publicly he is agreeing with the Emperor but actually goes off trying to prove how naive the "Againsts" were.

Instead of being strong and holding to his beliefs, "look Emperor you've got it wrong and you are being swayed by people who have no expertise in this and they are being subjective (ooh, I don't like mutants) instead of being objective (all mutation has an inherent risk but if we manage it what benefit will we get from it?)", instead he acts two-faced and then breaks his promise, performs "illegal" actions and destabilises whatever project the Emperor was doing in his throne room at the time.

All as an irresponsible display of I told you so - see Sorcery showed me the treachery of Horus and now I give you an instantaneous message that is powered by Magic and didn't have to wait weeks of warp voyage to get to you.

 

For example, if Magnus had have mobilised the Thousand Sons to intercept Horus whilst sending a conventional message to the Emperor and other Loyal Legions to meet at this point to catch Horus before reaching Earth, we'll have a chit-chat with Horus and if he isn't a Traitor then oopsy, my mistake, but if it turns out he is rotten then I'll be proved right and we can even retreat to Earth and fight Horus from there.

 

That way Magnus would be proved right AND not have broken his promise so dramatically/ instigated censure from the Emperor, the Thousand Sons & Space Wolves would be present to aid the loyalists fduring the Siege of Terra.

 

Magnus was fueled mostly by his desire to prove the value of Sorcery and lost sight of dealing with the treachery of Horus.

 

Have I captured what you were saying?

[Zuaarle]

I don´t know other legions don´t have soo much trauma

 

The other Primarchs who died didn't have their Primarch killed by Horus at the height of his daemonic power (i.e. the power of all four Gods), a death so agonizing it cursed their geneseed. Dorn died in an explosion, Ferrus had his head cut off. No comparison.

 

 

 

Actually Dorn died when he and a small force of fists teleported onto a chaos barge, however they were outnumbered and trapped. Dorn's final stand was holding the command centre of the ship.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I don´t know other legions don´t have soo much trauma

 

The other Primarchs who died didn't have their Primarch killed by Horus at the height of his daemonic power (i.e. the power of all four Gods), a death so agonizing it cursed their geneseed. Dorn died in an explosion, Ferrus had his head cut off. No comparison.

 

 

 

Actually Dorn died when he and a small force of fists teleported onto a chaos barge, however they were outnumbered and trapped. Dorn's final stand was holding the command centre of the ship.

 

Didnt this happen during on of the earliest Black Crusades?

 

WLK

[Pacific81]

Indeed, it was one of the earlier black crusades. Apparently Dorn was one of the last Primarchs to survive, and died soon after the mysterious dissapearance of Corax.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This is taken from Lexicanum and in their acknowledgments say this piece came from Index Astartes II.

 

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Indeed, it was one of the earlier black crusades. Apparently Dorn was one of the last Primarchs to survive, and died soon after the mysterious dissapearance of Corax.

 

I wasnt 100% on that, and dont like posting something without the proper background.

thanks!

 

WLK

[Mr. Sandbot]

I have a very complicated like/dislike for Magnus. I mean, I love how the stories paint him out to be a tragic hero, betrayed by his father (which is why I love playing them since it seems like the legion under magnus is still out for the imperium/galaxy to burn), but I dislike how his unwillingness to challenge the emperor's belief on sorcery led to an inflation of his ambition, and as a result, he tried to both save the imperium and prove his philosophies correct. For a situation that dire, an intelligent being such as Magnus should be able to realize his Empire comes before his personal beliefs for that particular moment.

:P see now I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore.

 

I think I understand what you are saying.

 

Publicly he is agreeing with the Emperor but actually goes off trying to prove how naive the "Againsts" were.

Instead of being strong and holding to his beliefs, "look Emperor you've got it wrong and you are being swayed by people who have no expertise in this and they are being subjective (ooh, I don't like mutants) instead of being objective (all mutation has an inherent risk but if we manage it what benefit will we get from it?)", instead he acts two-faced and then breaks his promise, performs "illegal" actions and destabilises whatever project the Emperor was doing in his throne room at the time.

All as an irresponsible display of I told you so - see Sorcery showed me the treachery of Horus and now I give you an instantaneous message that is powered by Magic and didn't have to wait weeks of warp voyage to get to you.

 

For example, if Magnus had have mobilised the Thousand Sons to intercept Horus whilst sending a conventional message to the Emperor and other Loyal Legions to meet at this point to catch Horus before reaching Earth, we'll have a chit-chat with Horus and if he isn't a Traitor then oopsy, my mistake, but if it turns out he is rotten then I'll be proved right and we can even retreat to Earth and fight Horus from there.

 

That way Magnus would be proved right AND not have broken his promise so dramatically/ instigated censure from the Emperor, the Thousand Sons & Space Wolves would be present to aid the loyalists fduring the Siege of Terra.

 

Magnus was fueled mostly by his desire to prove the value of Sorcery and lost sight of dealing with the treachery of Horus.

 

Have I captured what you were saying?

 

Actually yes, you have. It disappoints me that a being as smart as magnus didn't really think this all out very thoroughly. Especially for a primarch of a legion that specializes in manipulation and deceit. But then again, I'm imaging how that conventional message would have gone in a way that wouldn't have given away that Magnus "knows" Horus is a traitor through sorcery, but still giving a reliable way for several legions to amass and confront Horus over it. Not to mention that it would be Horus' word against Magnus'. Nonetheless, its an arguably smarter alternative.

:tu: See this is why its complex for me cause now I'm wondering how this would all go in a believable way.

Although what an image that would be, having the wolves and sons fighting the traitor legions on terra side by side.

[Corton]

The most disappointing? I would have to say the loyalist Legions at Istvaan V. They assume orbit and assault using tactics an enemy expects....Fail. They should have returned the favor of Virus Bombing the Planet. Unless of course they didn't have those available. It would have made more sense.

[Pacific81]

Yes, but as has been said before they had know way of knowing that the 4 Legions following them were traitors as well. Horus also played on this, deliberately withdrawing his forces infront of the assault so Ferrus Mannus and the other attackers would think his back was against the wall.

 

As far as Ferrus was concerned he was the spearhead of a huge, 7 Legion attack force that would certainly crush the traitors, and he wanted to be there to take on Fulgrim.

[Mr. Sandbot]

If i'm right, I'm pretty sure in the older index astartes, the attack on Istvaan was supposed to bring Horus back alive and only kill him if necessary. I forgot how Fulgrim depicted this though.

[Pacific81]

.. But we now have a lovely big novel by Ben Counter dealing with these events in graphic detail :D

[Hialmar]

Every Traitor Legion dissappointed me equally as they were weak-willed cowardly traitors. If you look at their actions and the sneaking around and hiding things from their own brother marines in their own or other Legions tells you that they knoew what they were doing was wrong and yet still being too weak to resist being able to do it. When they finally did turn they did not even have the guts to stand-up and face the Loyal Marines in their own Legions, the Loyalist Legions, or their Brother Primarchs or the Emperor in a straight-up fight, until after they had betrayed and used cowardly sneak attacks to decimate the Space Marines and other Loyalist Forces.

 

The fact that in the end they got spanked and sent whining back to their disgusting masters like the curs they had turned into only proves what weak dogs they were and remain.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Every Traitor Legion dissappointed me equally as they were weak-willed cowardly traitors. If you look at their actions and the sneaking around and hiding things from their own brother marines in their own or other Legions tells you that they knoew what they were doing was wrong and yet still being too weak to resist being able to do it. When they finally did turn they did not even have the guts to stand-up and face the Loyal Marines in their own Legions, the Loyalist Legions, or their Brother Primarchs or the Emperor in a straight-up fight, until after they had betrayed and used cowardly sneak attacks to decimate the Space Marines and other Loyalist Forces.

 

The fact that in the end they got spanked and sent whining back to their disgusting masters like the curs they had turned into only proves what weak dogs they were and remain.

 

and i thought i came across as blunt... :lol:

 

WLK

[Terrahawk]

Every Traitor Legion dissappointed me equally as they were weak-willed cowardly traitors. If you look at their actions and the sneaking around and hiding things from their own brother marines in their own or other Legions tells you that they knoew what they were doing was wrong and yet still being too weak to resist being able to do it. When they finally did turn they did not even have the guts to stand-up and face the Loyal Marines in their own Legions, the Loyalist Legions, or their Brother Primarchs or the Emperor in a straight-up fight, until after they had betrayed and used cowardly sneak attacks to decimate the Space Marines and other Loyalist Forces.

 

The fact that in the end they got spanked and sent whining back to their disgusting masters like the curs they had turned into only proves what weak dogs they were and remain.

 

Haha! I like your attitude!

 

[Gives a warrior's salute]