New HH novel in the pipeline "The First Heretic"

[Marshal Rohr]

Guilliman, and all Primarchs, need to be without hand holds for the readers so that the fans can decide for themselves the underlying motivations. If it just means more people will see Guilliman as a sanctimonious ass, then so be it. They were ALWAYS going to see him as that. Some people just do not identify with him. Alot of people. But that isnt a big deal, the facts are there for anyone who cares to view, if they choose not to its their loss and they look bad when they say things like:

 

 

 

I always knew Robbie G was a B) :huh:

 

 

Im glad an author is finally letting us decide how we feel about the Primarchs instead of giving us footnotes in the text to tell us how to view the situation.

[Walter Payton]

The excerpt is brilliant, but beware, the Ultramarine players will complain about how you portrayed Guilliman, you portrayed him as a guy who was genrally was emotionless, but loved picking on his brothers... it's spot on!

 

Actually, I liked the portrayal of Guilliman. I think, however, that you are doing what some of us (not me) worried about-Lorgar really doesn't make a good case. He says that only he can see it. So we have two viewpoints: Guilliman's and Lorgar's. Neither is impartial, neither is altogether reliable, so it really is quite a flimsy case. Guilliman was not, by the way, generally emotionless, and he did not love to pick on his brothers, where did you get that from? Lorgar screwed up, whatever way you look at it. Showing exasperation and reprimanding him is not 'picking on his brothers'. I wonder if people would say the same thing about Rogal Dorn or Sanguinius, were they the ones with this task.

 

i wonder whats sillier, the amount of people that hate Guilliman, or the amount of people who think he has no "negative character traits".

 

He has never had one in fluff. Despite the fact that I think it would work better if he did, (might I suggest pride), but, in fluff, he has no negative character traits, so, as far as we know, he hasn't. If he does have one, what is it?

 

I'll just stick out my analysis of the thing that I posted in the Ultramarines forum:

 

Guilliman is not a one dimensional saint. He has to have deeper thoughts and feelings, whether he acts on them is another matter. He will not always think or choose the exact right action. Of all the primarchs he cannot afford to be Mary sue. There is no problem with him taming satisfaction in seeing Lorgar fail. There is nothing wrong with being right.

 

I agree that he has to have deeper thoughts and feelings. The impression I get here is of a Guilliman who is both saddened and frustrated in equal measure. I think he is sad for Lorgar, and the way that Lorgar has screwed up so badly and the fact that he (Guilliman) told him so. I think he is frustrated at Lorgar's reaction, when Guilliman knows that this is the best for him, and I think he is frustrated that Lorgar blames him for his problem.

 

The Guilliman I get from this scene is a sympathetic one, who wants the best for his brothers.

 

The Flaw in Guilliman here is that it is not his place to want the best for his brothers, that is the place of the Emperor, and Guilliman is being, not patronising, but a little paternal-he is taking himself too seriously, when perhaps a light-hearted approach to the situation would be better (he doesn't really try to cheer Lorgar up). He has been given this big task by his father and liege, and he is doing it to the best of his ability, not realising that a less serious approach would be far better. I would surmise that this is a product of his upbringing on Macragge-Macraggeii society, like that of Rome, does not seem to be a forgiving one.

 

Pride, in other words.

 

On an unrelated note, whenever I think of Guilliman, I think of

 

Captain Idaho, however, disagreed with me. Here is his take:

 

I disagree, there is any sympathy in Guilliman from reading that passage. He offers no condolences and does not change even his facial expressions. His expression had no passion it according to the extract.

 

In fact, there is an element of contempt there, as he does respond to Lorgar's venom but with subtlety. As an example, he dismisses the acusation he was favoured by the Emperor and the implication Ultramar is an empire in its own, plus that Guilliman was enjoying Lorgar's torment, with this:

 

‘You have always possessed an active imagination, Lorgar. Today has proven that.’

 

The second sentence is the key one. It is an expression of vindication that Lorgar is incorrect and rubbing salt into the wound. Not a direct confrontational attack, but a retaliatory attack none the less.

 

He also responds to the veiled threat from Lorgar by belittling Lorgar in front of everyone. He dismisses him, despite them being supposed equals. He tells Lorgar that he has alot of work to do, implying that he had never done so before hand. He emphasises his authority over Lorgar by showing the sign of the aquila emblazoned upon his breast plate.

 

After being struck, Guilliman retaliates with this:

 

‘Is your tantrum concluded, Lorgar? I must return to the Crusade.’

 

A barb worse than striking back. Striking back would have given legitimancy to Lorgar, but he still responds with an attack, likening Lorgar to a child indirectly and stating he is above such petty concerns (again implying Lorgar wasn't).

 

So whilst I do not feel Guilliman was acting out of spite, there was infact two in confrontation, not just Lorgar. And it is clear Guilliman dislikes Lorgar, at least at this point.

 

My response:

 

‘You have always possessed an active imagination, Lorgar. Today has proven that.’

 

The second sentence is the key one. It is an expression of vindication that Lorgar is incorrect and rubbing salt into the wound. Not a direct confrontational attack, but a retaliatory attack none the less.

 

Ah, but Lorgar as insulted Guilliman. G may be sympathetic to him, but not empathetic. He is sad for Lorgar, but he does not understand him. This dialogue happens after Lorgar takes the mickey out of Guilliman, who responds saying that Lorgar is deceiving himself.

 

He also responds to the veiled threat from Lorgar by belittling Lorgar in front of everyone. He dismisses him, despite them being supposed equals. He tells Lorgar that he has alot of work to do, implying that he had never done so before hand. He emphasises his authority over Lorgar by showing the sign of the aquila emblazoned upon his breast plate.

 

Actually, saying that he has a lot of work to do does not imply he has never done any before, simply that he has a lot to do to make amends. Also, why do you think he hadn't shown him the Aquila already?

 

 

‘Is your tantrum concluded, Lorgar? I must return to the Crusade.’

 

A barb worse than striking back. Striking back would have given legitimancy to Lorgar, but he still responds with an attack, likening Lorgar to a child indirectly and stating he is above such petty concerns (again implying Lorgar wasn't).

 

By this point he is already angry with him though.

 

Lorgar has screwed up (and done what Guilliman had told him not to do), hit him (don't underestimate the meaning of this act)-Guilliman is already irritated with him.

 

So whilst I do not feel Guilliman was acting out of spite, there was infact two in confrontation, not just Lorgar. And it is clear Guilliman dislikes Lorgar, at least at this point.

 

I agree that there was two in the confrontation. However, I believe, initially, that Guilliman is trying to help, but Lorgar simply throws it back at him with his insinuations. The two comes later.

 

I don't think that Guilliman likes Lorgar, and that he is frustrated by the fact that Lorgar is wrong and he is right.

 

Guilliman does not understand Lorgar, he knows that he is right and that Lorgar is wrong, and he can't understand why Lorgar cannot see this. Like I said, he is sympathetic but not empathetic, two different things.

 

There is already debate. Why do you think I posted what Idaho had to say as well. Unless ADB comes along and confirms what he means (and he just said he won't), we can but argue...:cuss

[Midgard]

All I will say is that I have enjoyed the extract, and am anxiously looking forward for more. "Soul Hunter" won me over to ADB's writing, and I'm expecting to get to "Helsreach" shortly - already got it, just didn't get time to start reading it.

 

Of course, we still don't know what exactly led to this confrontation between Lorgar and Guilliman. It is tempting to assume that the Emperor's censure took place, but we don't know the exact details, and what exactly might have happened. Lorgar may or may not have the right to feel as he does, depending on whether or not he did something that even he himself considered questionable, and Guilliman may or may not have been there to witness it. What I am saying is that while the extract is very promising and well-written, it does not represent the full picture, the full context to evaluate the motivations of both Primarchs. For example, I took it as implying that Lorgar also attacked Malcador, causing some damage, which implies there is more to the scene than was shown in the extract, and perhaps more to the overall context.

 

At any rate I'm looking forward to TFH, not only because it is a HH novel, but because it looks like it is going to be very much worth the wait.

[Ashe Darke]

The problem I have with the display of smugness (or by Lorgar perceived display, though most readers will not take it as anything other than fact) is that it seems to be entirely contrary to how Guilliman is generally portrayed. Now, he is never directly portayed in one way or another as far as arrogance and vanity are concerned, but his deeds and his upbringing should be quite telling.

 

This is what the Index Astartes says about Guilliman's foster father, Konor:

"Konor was a well-liked ruler, yet his fellow Consul, a vain and jealous man named Gallan, plotted against him. In these times of prosperity, Gallan and a powerful group of the wealthy elite of Macragge had grown fat off the labor of slaves and vigorously opposed Konor's proposed reforms that would oblige them to provide their slaves with reasonable food and accomodation. Konor also pushed through legislation that forced the wealthy to contribute to his ambitious program to enlarge and improve the capital city. His reforms were of great benefit to the people of Macragge, but Gallan and his supporters were fearful of losing their wealth and power."

 

Guilliman himself, when being put in a position of command over all the Imperial forces and tasked with restructuring them, decides that the Legions be broken down into smaller Chapters. Where before he had been in command of the largest of all the Legions (more than half of all the Space Marines at times during the Scouring), by his own design he ended up with no more men under his command than every other Primarch. Or Chapter Master, for that matter.

He usually used his position of power for common good, just as his foster father did. And that would not really strike me as a person being vain about having a position of privileges or gloating when a competitor is put in his place.

Any smugness about being favoured by the Emperor or another Primarch being reprimanded seems out of character to me.

Well looking at the extract I get the impression Guilliman just wants to get on with his mission. He shouldn't really be there. The Emperor told Lorgar what not to do a long time ago and yet he did it anyway. So he has to go out of his way to pass on the Emperor's message. Now Lorgar probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong and to be told off, not in person by the Emperor but by someone who seems to poop gold and everything they do earns them great praise, seems like quite an insult. Lorgar probably sees this as the Emperor going 'This is who you should try and be like'. But like I said he probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong, he's a bit zealous after all and seemingly not good at reading people. So he complains as anyone would when they don't think they've done anything wrong. And what happens to his complaints? They fall on deaf ears. He wants to be heard, to explain his side of things but it doesn't seem to register as Guilliman probably doesn't see why he should be here. They were simple rules to follow and these complaints are pointless in the name of the Emperor's authority and have no grounds. To be honest I think anything Guilliman would have said would have wound Lorgar up further and the safest bet was silence. To comfort Lorgar would to tell him he is right at least to some degree which I doubt Guilliman thinks is true and I can't see him lying to him when he feels Lorgar needs to learn a lesson here.

 

And then we get stuff like this.

I see the shadow of a smile on your lips. These others do not know you as I do, brother. Our sons may not see the amusement in your eyes, but I am not blind to such nuance.

This to me seems like it has elements of projection and a lack of understanding. Lorgar projects what he would be like their position due his inability to read and understand people. He offers praise to the Emperor and wants it in return, he wants to feel like his praise is appreciated. It is what he wants. And if he was getting praise for doing what he is doing and had to do something similar to what Guilliman was doing I imagine he would feel smug. Which is why he suspects Guilliman of it as that is what he would be feeling. If you don't know then you use yourself as a basis, and in Lorgar's case his projections were wrong, well as far as I'm concerned.

 

The projection also seems to apply in the sense that if he wanted to wind someone up that is how he would do it although I imagine Guilliman is silent as to try and not enrage Lorgar further and to not answer what he perceives to be foolish questions/accusations. This also has elements of paranoia, assuming the other person knows exactly what buttons to push and are doing it intentionally when really anything would exacerbate the situation.

 

Maybe Lorgar doesn't not understand people, maybe he's just not good at reading. Aaron on the other hand seems to have a good idea of how people's minds work and it makes for interesting characters and relationships in his books.

 

Just a few thought processes that went on while I was typing.

 

As for the extract itself I liked the fact that for quite a few lines you weren't sure who had struck who. Gripping stuff.

[Walter Payton]

The Emperor also directly told Lorgar to be more like Roboute Guilliman-such an act will not engender respect. I think that throughout the scene Guilliman gets more and more exasperated, culminating in his 'tantrum' jibe (although to be fair to the man it is a tantrum). At the start, he projects a kind of 'well, you screwed up, I don't really want to be here, but I shall discharge this duty to the best of my ability and try to help, but not in a compassionate way because I ain't the sentimental type,' finally going to 'right, this has been a wasted trip. Don't come crying to me next time, chum.'

[Aqui]

Well but I have never read anything about custodes getting involved in a direct confrontation with Word Bearers. So there are 2 possibilities imo:

 

1. The novel plays on terra where the Custodes bodyguard the Emperor

2. The Custodes company the Emperor on some travel or something like that.

 

OR

 

the Custodes act as some kind of Pre-Grey Knight troops and maybe they are sent to take out Lorgar or Erebus -> pure awesomenes

 

Or

 

3 - It's artistic licence :devil:

[Rain]

Wow that was quite good, I think this might actually come out better than Soul Hunter, definably picking it up once it releases even though the WB are one of my least liked chaos legions. Oh and to me ol' Row Boat actually come off quite well, maybe not quite perfect enough for the Ultra fanboys and their imaginary legions of Ultra haters, but he seemed like a professional that feels exasperated at the fact that his superstitious incompetent of a brother is up to his usual tomfoolery. Hell, I actually identified with Gulliman in that passage, never thought that could happen.

 

Oh and to ADB, please don't foreshadow some great final battle and then not write it, that was probably the worst part of Soul Hunter. "Yeah so there's gonna be a big battle and redshirt X will die and I'll steal his glove". And then it never happens. Just my petty request anyway.

[Walter Payton]

maybe not quite perfect enough for the Ultra fanboys and their imaginary legions of Ultra haters,

 

(*sighs wearily)

 

Please don't mischaracterise Ultras as wanting everything about our chapter to be perfect. Guilliman works better as a haughty aristocrat (like he is portrayed here), than as a 1-D saint. Oh, and spend some time on Warseer before talking about 'imaginary' Ultra-haters.

 

The rest of your post is spot on. B)

[Ashe Darke]

Oh and to ADB, please don't foreshadow some great final battle and then not write it, that was probably the worst part of Soul Hunter. "Yeah so there's gonna be a big battle and redshirt X will die and I'll steal his glove". And then it never happens. Just my petty request anyway.

Well the point was that the visions are not always right. It was a big moment for him to realise that he was closer to Curze than he thought due to the fact both their gifts weren't always accurate and some things never came to pass.

 

Plus if that vision came true

then Cyrion would die and well I don't want that.

 

[Scribe]

Jesus Christ. I apologise if that reads like an extremely tedious Director's Commentary. I'll spare us all that in the future.

 

Don't spare us! I quite enjoy seeing the thinking behind the writing. :]

[Rain]

@Alecto : Yeah but that's Warseer, Warseer hates everyone. Calling Warseer anti-Ultramarine because they hate Ultramarines is like calling HIV racist because it kills a lot of Africans, it's really missing the point.

 

@Ashe: Yeah I know what the point was, I just think it was executed badly, especially considering how well the rest of the book was tied together.

[Ashe Darke]

Personal preference I guess. I'm actually at that bit in a re-read and I didn't think it was badly done. The only thing I can fault the book on is as most people say it feels like a long intro/prequel but I guess it was never supposed to be a stand alone book.

 

I'm curious as to how far the book is coming along. Aaron seems to be poking his head out more so I'm guessing he's done a major catch up and is allowing himself some time away from writing.

[Walter Payton]

@Alecto : Yeah but that's Warseer, Warseer hates everyone. Calling Warseer anti-Ultramarine because they hate Ultramarines is like calling HIV racist because it kills a lot of Africans, it's really missing the point.

 

Actually my point was that Ultra-haters are not 'imaginary'. And such people go on Warseer, because it is moderated by donkeys. And I think you would be hard pressed to say that any other chapter has anywhere near the same number of haters as we do.

 

Anyway, enough of this, before the thread goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

The extract bodes well.

[Gree]

And I think you would be hard pressed to say that any other chapter has anywhere near the same number of haters as we do.

 

That is so true.

 

And such people go on Warseer, because it is moderated by donkeys.

 

Like 40k online?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Alecto : Yeah but that's Warseer, Warseer hates everyone. Calling Warseer anti-Ultramarine because they hate Ultramarines is like calling HIV racist because it kills a lot of Africans, it's really missing the point.

 

Actually my point was that Ultra-haters are not 'imaginary'. And such people go on Warseer, because it is moderated by donkeys. And I think you would be hard pressed to say that any other chapter has anywhere near the same number of haters as we do.

Anyway, enough of this, before the thread goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

The extract bodes well.

 

Well, thats the price to get the insane amounts of PR you guys get.

For every studio game designer that loves you, expect a equal number of people to hate you.

 

(and lets be honest, the last SM codex is a bit over the top over for you guys. the previous editions had it done well, 5th ed, not so much)

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

@Alecto : Yeah but that's Warseer, Warseer hates everyone. Calling Warseer anti-Ultramarine because they hate Ultramarines is like calling HIV racist because it kills a lot of Africans, it's really missing the point.

 

Actually my point was that Ultra-haters are not 'imaginary'. And such people go on Warseer, because it is moderated by donkeys. And I think you would be hard pressed to say that any other chapter has anywhere near the same number of haters as we do.

Anyway, enough of this, before the thread goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

The extract bodes well.

 

Well, thats the price to get the insane amounts of PR you guys get.

For every studio game designer that loves you, expect a equal number of people to hate you.

 

(and lets be honest, the last SM codex is a bit over the top over for you guys. the previous editions had it done well, 5th ed, not so much)

 

WLK

 

Which is all our fault, naturally. :lol:

 

I'd much rather that we didn't get the insane propoganda, and just had a few Codex paragraphs and an IA, but that it isn't fair to hate us for that. Hate the amount of airtime we get, sure, but not the chapter.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@B.C.A.: everybody gets the heat when they are in the spotlight, regardless of what subject you are talking about. just deal with it and remember that turnabout is fair play.

 

the Wolves got it when our book came out (remember the sqeals of "JoWW is TOO powerful!!"?? most of us Wolves largely dismiss that power in favor of LL or MH)

the B.A. are getting it as they are the latest shiney Marine Codex (which has a sentence cheering Guilliman on. seriously)

 

and your talking about haters here, thats what you have to remember. haters dont use logic. haters hate logic (yes, i said that).

I dislike the Ultramarines because of their reliance on the Codex Astartes and lack of...tactical flair.

I hate Matt Ward for mary sueing the Ultramarines this edition.

 

see the difference?

 

edit: fix the name...wow, that was a blnd moment for me...

WLK

[Walter Payton]

@B.A.C.:

 

It's B-CA, WKL...

 

everybody gets the heat when they are in the spotlight, regardless of what subject you are talking about. just deal with it and remember that turnabout is fair play.

 

the Wolves got it when our book came out (remember the sqeals of "JoWW is TOO powerful!!"?? most of us Wolves largely dismiss that power in favor of LL or MH)

the B.A. are getting it as they are the latest shiney Marine Codex (which has a sentence cheering Guilliman on. seriously)

 

and your talking about haters here, thats what you have to remember. haters dont use logic. haters hate logic (yes, i said that).

I dislike the Ultramarines because of their reliance on the Codex Astartes and lack of...tactical flair.

I hate Matt Ward for mary sueing the Ultramarines this edition.

 

see the difference?

 

WLK

 

 

I disagree, but I am not going to dispute you here. The thread will die. If you want reasoning, get it via PM.

[Dark Mechanicum]

The extract made me happy, its Lorgar being Lorgar. Its cool.

[Arioch]

I think this book have a really nice theme and the extract feels very "real". It must be hard for Lorgar, the Emperors most faithfull servant, to be told that he is doing terrible and that he should be more like the blue guy. His intentions where good and pure, but the Emperor is just being a blunt :wub:. I think the text gives me great sympathy for Lorgar, but on the other hand I think Roboute is also a likeable character (and I dont like the Ultramarines much). Perhabs this book can give the Ultramarines some more character?

[Walter Payton]

Perhabs this book can give the Ultramarines some more character?

 

Read Index Astartes: Ultramarines, plenty of character there. And written by Graham McNeill, not Mat "ULTRAMARINES, ULTRAMARINES UBER ALLES" Ward. I love it :devil:

[Gree]

The Ultramarines have plenty of character if one cares to look.

 

They are Spartans and Romans, trained from the age of six to become soldiers. They are one of the major guardians of the Eastern Fringe, they are the blood-enemies of the Tyranids and the Orks of the Charadon Sector. Each Company has it's own heraldry and unique Captain. From the daredevil Sicarius, to the noble Ventris, to the Master of the Black Galenus each is as charactful in his own right as any Wolf Lord or Deathwing. Tigurius looked into the Hive Mind and Cassius is Tyranid obsessed. You have recruits taken from the warrior highlands of Macragge next to the ocean dwellers of Tarentus alongside the farmers of Calth. There is plenty of character if one put's in the time to actually look.

[Legatus]

Naturallys it is not as immediately striking as "vikigs in space" or "vampire angels in space". :tu:

[Ashe Darke]

Naturallys it is not as immediately striking as "vikigs in space" or "vampire angels in space". :tu:

Hah! Just the wording I was looking for.

 

In all fairness I can see why a lot of people like them, they're like the epitome of the perfect marine. But in being so they have to follow certain rules. Reckless anger? No no no, that's not perfect. And in being these beacons of idealness they lose the flavour that the other chapters have, which finds it's routes in these 'flaws'. The Guilliman's codex also seems to be this regimented box where no one can colour outside the lines. They can't accidentally colour outside the lines, they do it perfectly because that is their way. This is why soap operas work so to speak. Flaws are interesting to see, they create situations, differences etc. A show about everyone being perfect and getting along wouldn't have much going on. It might feel like Equilibrium or Gatacca. This can get very tiresome though as characters like JD will prove, and there are some people who just like those who are supposed to be the best. And who can blame them? (Please note I use perfect as a relative term here)

 

If I were to be marine it probably would be an Ultra. I wouldn't wanna be ginger and angry or have to deal with the Red Thirst. I'd wanna be as normal as possible. But I don't wanna be a marine and I don't particularly wanna play them (loyalists) either but if I were to do so then I wouldn't wanna go for epitome of the perfect marine guys. I wanna go for the guys who are all about fire or are all about zeal and craziness. I like the drawing where the colours go outside the lines and a lot of other people do.

[Gree]

Naturallys it is not as immediately striking as "vikigs in space" or "vampire angels in space". :mellow:

 

Not really, it's all a matter of opinion. For me the Greco-Roman aspects and history of the Ultramarines is more colorful than anything the Wolves or Blood Angels have to offer.