New HH novel in the pipeline "The First Heretic"

[Legatus]

Disciplin and utter professionalism are traits I admire. I will perhaps never meet an exemplary specimen in real life, but I allways like characters with those traits in stories and movies. The Ultramarines exemplify total dedication to their cause, and they focus their entire existence on being as well prepared for it as they can be. Their Primarch believed in an academic approach, and so does the Chapter. They don't do it to satisfy their own inner urges for violence or hatred of the "other side". They do it because that is what the Emperor made them for and expects of them.

For someone to hang out with, or for an RPG character to play around with, I would perhaps need some different personality traits. But for the army that I lead against the horrors of the 41st millenium I do like the ultimate determination of the Ultramarines.

 

But then it is also fun to send the Wolfes of Russ against them, or the Death Company, or the Deathwing. Hence why I started forces for them too. It's a different feel to command their units (in terms of fluff, not their rules). Great in their own right. I do symphasize with the very disciplined and professional Ultramarines more, though.

 

 

Maybe I should add that I am not one who gives his HQ commanders names and back stories. I am just playing "the Ultramarines", and they are led by a Captain (or which ever HQ I am using). I don't give my squads names and stories either. My tactical squad is just a typical heroic Space Marine squad. My Captain is a typical mighty Space Marine hero. I have an army of "generic" Space Marines, as they are described in countless stories. They have no names and no faces. For such figures, I do not need a great deal of personality, just a few basic traits on how they would handle themselves. Traits that are given in the basic description of the different Chapters. And for that "discipline" and "academic professionalism" are good for me. An Ultramarine would behave different than a Space Wolf or a Blood Angel. And for me, even though my mood changes on a weekly basis, it is usually the Ultramarine I prefer.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Naturallys it is not as immediately striking as "vikigs in space" or "vampire angels in space". :cuss

Hah! Just the wording I was looking for.

 

In all fairness I can see why a lot of people like them, they're like the epitome of the perfect marine. But in being so they have to follow certain rules.

If I were to be marine it probably would be an Ultra. I wouldn't wanna be ginger and angry or have to deal with the Red Thirst. I'd wanna be as normal as possible. But I don't wanna be a marine and I don't particularly wanna play them (loyalists) either but if I were to do so then I wouldn't wanna go for epitome of the perfect marine guys. I wanna go for the guys who are all about fire or are all about zeal and craziness. I like the drawing where the colours go outside the lines and a lot of other people do.

 

 

Disciplin and utter professionalism are traits I admire. I will perhaps never meet an exemplary specimen in real life, but I allways like characters with those traits in stories and movies. The Ultramarines exemplify total dedication to their cause, and they focus their entire existence on being as well prepared for it as they can be. Their Primarch believed in an academic approach, and so does the Chapter. They don't do it to satisfy their own inner urges for violence or hatred of the "other side". They do it because that is what the Emperor made them for and expects of them.

For someone to hang out with, or for an RPG character to play around with, I would perhaps need some different personality traits. But for the army that I lead against the horrors of the 41st millenium I do like the ultimate determination of the Ultramarines.

 

But then it is also fun to send the Wolfes of Russ against them, or the Death Company, or the Deathwing. Hence why I started forces for them too. It's a different feel to command their units (in terms of fluff, not their rules). Great in their own right. I do symphasize with the very disciplined and professional Ultramarines more, though.

Traits that are given in the basic description of the different Chapters. And for that "discipline" and "academic professionalism" are good for me. An Ultramarine would behave different than a Space Wolf or a Blood Angel. And for me, even though my mood changes on a weekly basis, it is usually the Ultramarine I prefer.

 

These are excellent descriptions of UM, and why hobbyists often relate to other Chapters more easily. Because we are idiosyncratic, others idiosyncrasies are a shared point of existence.

 

A+ chaps! :cuss

[Jamafore]

It is now proven that any thread can turn into an Ultramarine thread. I love it. :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It is now proven that any thread can turn into an Ultramarine thread. I love it. :)

 

dont state that like it wasnt expected.

 

we have, for something like the first time, a look at guilliman interactions with his brother primarchs in person.

of course it was going to polarize people. if it didnt that the author would suck. which he doesnt. soul hunter and cadian blood attest to that.

 

WLK

[Jamafore]

True, but I still think it's funny. Must be my strange sense of humor. ;)

[Legatus]

Disciplin and utter professionalism are traits I admire. I will perhaps never meet an exemplary specimen in real life, but I allways like characters with those traits in stories and movies. The Ultramarines exemplify total dedication to their cause, and they focus their entire existence on being as well prepared for it as they can be. Their Primarch believed in an academic approach, and so does the Chapter.

I forgot an important trait: Efficiency. That is the whole reason for the "academic" approach. They use tactics and doctrines that have been tried and tested and proven themsleves to give the best results. But naturally it is not as simple as just flipping to page 152 in the Codex Astartes when they want to perform a drop pod assault. Every encounter has endless variables. What are the enemy forces? Are there perhaps unknown elements? How are the terrain, weather, civillian allegiances? So what units to use, and what gear to bring? If the company has already lost one some units, then a completely different approach may be adviseable. A lot still rests on the judgement and experience of the Commander, which protocolls have to be applied and would best suit the situation at hand. It is not like every Drop Pod assault will be performed the same, and every line defense the same. The exact situation and conditions have to be figured in to be able to ascertain the optimal approach.

Hardly any encounter will be exactly as another one, but for every encounter there are more viable and less viable approaches, and the devil is in the details. The purpose of the Codex Astartes is to allow the Commander to find the most viable approach in any kind of situations. It does that by giving general guidelines or specific examples, which have to be applied to the specific situation at hand.

[Arioch]

Well sorry if I offended any ultra-players, that was not my intent. I have not read any ultramarines- novels, only a small part of "Battle for the abyss". I think the ultramarine suffered from many of the errors that you find in the spacemarine codex. Im Ultra, Im awsome, initiating combatstane 1005 for ultimate awsomeness blablabla follow the book.... I dont know maybe its their dreadfull colour I dont like. I like order, diciplin and the idea of a roman legion in space (or greeks, I actually like the greeks more, they had style). And I really believe that the ultras have a lot of potential, they just have to stop their egotrip and get real. Or maybe I am simply to attached to my own chapter?

[Walter Payton]

Well sorry if I offended any ultra-players, that was not my intent. I have not read any ultramarines- novels, only a small part of "Battle for the abyss"

 

I know. But don't judge us by Counter's rubbish.

 

I dont know maybe its their dreadfull colour I dont like.

 

ULTRAMARINES ARE CALLED SUCH BECAUSE OF THE LATIN WORD 'ULTRA', MEANING BEYOND. ANYONE WHO SAYS ANY DIFFERENT (ESPECIALLY REGARDING SHADES OF BLUE, WHICH, BY THE WAY, IS USED AS IT IS THE COLOUR OF MEN) WILL BE SHOT, THEIR PROPERTY CONSFISCATED AND THEIR CHILDREN USED AS 'TEST SUBJECTS' FOR THE LATEST ANTI-TYRANID AMMUNITION...

 

 

they just have to stop their egotrip and get real.

 

They are described in favourable terms in fluff, that does not mean that they or their players are actually arrogant.

 

Or maybe I am simply to attached to my own chapter?

 

The Emo 1-D Whiner Angels? (joking)

 

It's all about perspectives...:D

[Aqatone]

Heh heh. Being told to 'get real' from the Dark Angels.

 

:)

[Aqui]

I'm not an UltraMarine fan, nor am I a "hater". However, as other people have already mentioned, this is the first time Guilliman has really been written about, so I'll wait until I've gotten around to reading all the books up to that point (I'm only about a third of the way into buying the books... :) )

 

I've only ever previously been interested in Space Wolves and the Blood Angels, but if this book is given the attention I hope it may make me a little less cynical towards not just the Ultras but to the Codex they adhere to so much too :)

[Legatus]

And I really believe that the ultras have a lot of potential, they just have to stop their egotrip and get real.

I can completely understand why constant praise or promotion, going as far as overshadowing other Chapters, can antagonise people. However, as Brother-Captain Alecto has already pointed out, when the background states how the Ultramarines are "the most noble" or "the greatest" of all the Chapters, then that is not the Ultramarines saying that about themselves. And maybe that is not what you meant, but the way you phrased it did sound a bit like it. The Ultramarines are not described as boastful and condescending to other Chapters, perhaps with the exception that they are convinced that following the Codex Astartes is the way to go, and that Chapters that willingly stray from it (or even ignore it) are making a mistake. But that is like Space Wolves complaining that other Chapters have no warrior spirit, or the Iron Hands complaining that other Chapters rely too much on mere flesh, etc. They have their way of fighting that they are adhering to and deem the obvious choice.

Whenever the Ultramarines are praised or promoted in fluff, that is GW explaining how the Ultramarines are situated in-universe, either objectively (though some would object to that notion) or subjectively in the perception of the Imperium. The Ultramarines had been featured as the pinnacle of what Space Marines are ever since 2nd Edition, where the 40K universe we know today had been formed and where the "big four" Chapters had been chosen.

[Sigismund Himself]

We don't need another thread on the blandness/character of Ultramarines :devil: Please keep it on topic.

[Arioch]

Yes, lets not get of topic. Of course I know that GW is responsible for promoting the Ultramarines, of course the Ultramarines could never be arrogant, its part of their fluff (sadly I think, I mean romans where very arrogant). And Im not commenting this as a Dark Angel, Im commenting this as a player, thinking that the blue chapter could have been handled in a way that would not make that many people hate them. When I say they needs to get real, I mean that the Ultramarines are a bit to perfect, and not "realistic" in the grim darkness of the 41 millenium...but lets not argue over this. If you like the Ultramarines because they are perfect, then fine, every chaper has its own flavor, and I like most of them. So no need to say "but we ARE the best because it says so in the codex" we know, we know.

[Walter Payton]

Yes, lets not get of topic. Of course I know that GW is responsible for promoting the Ultramarines, of course the Ultramarines could never be arrogant, its part of their fluff (sadly I think, I mean romans where very arrogant).

 

Personally, I see the Ultramarines as haughty aristocrats, but not necessarily arrogant. Of course, I don't doubt that there will be arrogant Ultramarines (Sicarius, anyone). That's why I am cock-a-hoop at this description of Guilliman-it ties in perfectly to what I think the Ultras should be.

[Gree]

When I say they needs to get real, I mean that the Ultramarines are a bit to perfect, and not "realistic" in the grim darkness of the 41 millenium...but lets not argue over this. If you like the Ultramarines because they are perfect, then fine, every chaper has its own flavor, and I like most of them. So no need to say "but we ARE the best because it says so in the codex" we know, we know.

 

Perfect? The Ultramarines got a hit from Behemoth, lost their First Company and have their own rivalries with the Word Bearers and Alpha Legions. They had the misfourtune to be late to the Heresy. They don't have super-special geneseed or a resistance to Chaos.

 

For all the flak Calgar recieves he really is not that different from say Grimnar. Both are excellent generals. Both are great warriors. Both wield purified chaos weapons. Both wear termie armor. Both are revered on many worlds. Both are respected as the inheritors of their Primarch's legacy.

[Pcm979]

Edit: Removed comment. I don't want to drag this OT any more than it already is.

[Captain Tezdal]

When I say they needs to get real, I mean that the Ultramarines are a bit to perfect, and not "realistic" in the grim darkness of the 41 millenium...but lets not argue over this. If you like the Ultramarines because they are perfect, then fine, every chaper has its own flavor, and I like most of them. So no need to say "but we ARE the best because it says so in the codex" we know, we know.

 

Perfect? The Ultramarines got a hit from Behemoth, lost their First Company and have their own rivalries with the Word Bearers and Alpha Legions. They had the misfourtune to be late to the Heresy. They don't have super-special geneseed or a resistance to Chaos.

 

For all the flak Calgar recieves he really is not that different from say Grimnar. Both are excellent generals. Both are great warriors. Both wield purified chaos weapons. Both wear termie armor. Both are revered on many worlds. Both are respected as the inheritors of their Primarch's legacy.

 

Wouldnt they also have a rivalry with the Emperors Children...considering Fulgrim slew their primarch en all?

[Gree]

When I say they needs to get real, I mean that the Ultramarines are a bit to perfect, and not "realistic" in the grim darkness of the 41 millenium...but lets not argue over this. If you like the Ultramarines because they are perfect, then fine, every chaper has its own flavor, and I like most of them. So no need to say "but we ARE the best because it says so in the codex" we know, we know.

 

Perfect? The Ultramarines got a hit from Behemoth, lost their First Company and have their own rivalries with the Word Bearers and Alpha Legions. They had the misfourtune to be late to the Heresy. They don't have super-special geneseed or a resistance to Chaos.

 

For all the flak Calgar recieves he really is not that different from say Grimnar. Both are excellent generals. Both are great warriors. Both wield purified chaos weapons. Both wear termie armor. Both are revered on many worlds. Both are respected as the inheritors of their Primarch's legacy.

 

Wouldnt they also have a rivalry with the Emperors Children...considering Fulgrim slew their primarch en all?

 

You would think, but I don't really see that reflected. The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion seemed more personal to me for some reason.

[Legatus]

On the "perfect": I don't think the Ultramarines have ever been described as "perfect". They are merely "as good as it gets".

 

 

On rivalries: The Ultramarines themselves are not said to have particular gripes with any of the traitor Legions, though if there had to be one it would probably be the Emperor's Children. Their encounters with the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion were instigated by those those two Legions respectively.

In the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines the Alpha Legion was described as having issues with the Imperial Fists, even having clashed with them before the heresy. The Index Astartes author did not go with that, and instead created the dispute between Alpharius and Guilliman. I think Dorn would have been a much more suitable counterpart to Alpharius in that Index Astartes for several reasons, but he probably would not have had his Codex to push on Alpharius, and would merely have criticised their conduct.

 

On TOPIC: I hope we see a bit more of Guilliman in that book, and that was not his entire act.

[Dark Mechanicum]

*pulls out a harpoon gun, harpoons the topic and slams it into the OT pushing it aside*

 

As the passage shows and this is to my interpetation, you have Guilliman being present during the chastisement of Lorgar, the man who has just been told to stop what comes oh so naturally to him in worshipping the man who is bringing the galaxy together. So the pope was just told by Jesus to stop worshipping him as he isn't a deity. Lorgar is also told to be more like his brother Guilliman who is advancing the crusade at a decent rate and not being slowed down by all that religious claptrap. So, who does Lorgar snap at...well Guilliman of course as its his legion (again) being put forth as that which his brothers should emulate (Alpharius and Lorgar). So, we have a good glimpse into the chastisment, the reason why Lorgar turns traitor and all that Jazz. So, I say...lets stop focusing on Guilliman a minor character in the novel about Lorgar and the fall of the Word Bearers.

 

Interesting thought: Lorgar wrote the Lecitito Divinatus...the religion of the God-Emperor. He then wrote the Book of Lorgar. So does that make the faith of the God-Emperor a Heresy since all his works were declared Hereticus and destroyed/sealed/bound?

[Captain Idaho]

I think their interaction is deeper than that. It sets the scene of a lot of events in 40K yet to happen in the series. Guilliman, in a funny sort of way, was a catalyst for the whole Heresy.

 

And I reckon ADB will have more of Guilliman in there too, as why would he publish that teaser if it is only a fleeting moment in the book?

[Priest33]

Eh yes and no, I think by that stage of the confrountation Logar had already fallen to Chaos he was just becoming far more public with it due to being called out by the Robot Gullman.

 

Whilst I love ADB's writing style i am kinda getting anoyed how every writter so far has said that primarch X is "faster then..." If they where all that fast then whats the point of all the marines around them? Just send a single primarch into battle and he can just zip around offing all the leadership and major threats. I understand that the Primarch's are amazing beings but it would be nice if this was showen more to do with their weapon skill (aka a perfect blow hitting just under the guard of "blah") or strength (a blow so powerful it shattered the aliens arm then crushed through its chest leaving it reeling and gasping for breath as it slumped before the might primarch X) then superman fast (which they all seem to be.. which makes me think that there really was no difference between each primarch appart from their colour choice and sence of style, plus a slight difference in personality). This rant may also be because I have just read the chapter in Fulgrim where he and his captains face off against the eldar and everything is so fast that only sound seems to be made...

 

Now that ive got that off my chest I cant wait for this book. Should be a great spin on the reasion for the Heresy (word bearers) and one of the Iconic SM legions (ULTRAMARINES.. even if I havent read anything about them that made me go wow ahah)

[A D-B]

I think their interaction is deeper than that. It sets the scene of a lot of events in 40K yet to happen in the series. Guilliman, in a funny sort of way, was a catalyst for the whole Heresy.

 

And I reckon ADB will have more of Guilliman in there too, as why would he publish that teaser if it is only a fleeting moment in the book?

 

Guilliman isn't in it much; by virtue of the story, this is what the Word Bearers did when no one was watching them, before it all begins. Magnus the Red, Horus, Corax and a few others show up, too.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think their interaction is deeper than that. It sets the scene of a lot of events in 40K yet to happen in the series. Guilliman, in a funny sort of way, was a catalyst for the whole Heresy.

 

And I reckon ADB will have more of Guilliman in there too, as why would he publish that teaser if it is only a fleeting moment in the book?

 

Guilliman isn't in it much; by virtue of the story, this is what the Word Bearers did when no one was watching them, before it all begins. Magnus the Red, Horus, Corax and a few others show up, too.

 

Corax?!

 

thats interesting and awesome.

 

WLK

[A D-B]

Corax?!

 

thats interesting and awesome.

 

WLK

 

And man, he is furious.