The Octaguide

[Marshal Renatus]

Agreed. It'll be H1N1 everywhere, and who wants that? Well...maybe Nurgle, but he doesn't get a vote.

[Octavulg]

StratoKhan:

Spelling and grammar are the parts I think are most important to any Liberite. It's important to mention them in any writing guide, and indeed from the samples of work I look through it seems like one cannot mention them enough times, although the term 'gramm' really made me shudder, sorry! But there are different ways of doing things. We know that anyone can use spellcheck. Telling someone that running their piece through spellcheck will net them more feedback should be your first port of call when faced with toxic orthography. Telling them that they should "learn to spell" has a more inflammatory edge.

 

You don't think the verb form of grammar is 'to gramm'? Really? :)

 

And they have to learn to spell, because I have yet to meet someone who started using a spellchecker after being told. Learning is evidently the only option.

 

In fact I've seen GW Chapters that have very similar chapter symbols yet different colour schemes or identical colour schemes and different chapter symbols and rather than look like a ripoff, to me it has pleasing heraldic parallels. I think that with something as subjective as aesthetics it should really boil down to whether the colour scheme pleases the owner. The criteria for memorability are also subjective.

 

True. I just think having a more unique scheme will lead to a more memorable chapter. It will certainly help lead to a more unique one. Seriously. There have been times where fifty-percent of chapters on the front page have black color schemes. And not black-and-something. Black. It's dull as dishwater.

 

Sometimes the way we respond to someone's work can encourage them to either improve or to give up. Having people give up because an unwitting sap has become the embodiment of all the mistakes that have ever raised your blood pressure and is then verbally smeared into a thin red paste over the internet is not a great outcome for anyone. It hurts the growth of the pool of people that contribute to Liber, and that's not what anyone wants, is it?

 

I would argue that this makes it less likely, rather than more, because (at least theoretically), this would be a less personal medium for delivering the message. "Let me quote from the Guide I wrote last year" seems less of an individual attack than "you should not do this".

 

I believe that the guide people need is already there. Maybe it needs a re-write to make it more accesible, easier to read and understand. Perhaps after several years and a lot of feedback, there is a pattern emerging in the mistakes of first-timers. With that information we can improve and add to the guide. It doesn't particularly need a change in tone however.

 

See, some of this stuff would fit in the guide. But a lot of it wouldn't. And considering how often I repeat a large portion of that last, I don't think it could hurt to have this around. If only for my own convenience. A lot of this can't go in the DIY Guide. It's too subjective. This is how I think people should write (and paint and plan). I'm fully aware that there is not necessarily agreement on a lot of these points. That's fine. But dear God, retyping why I think this way gets old. :)

 

I'm sorry, but telling people what they should or shouldn't do with their colour schemes is just too similar to the 2 page picture spread on how to eat fruit with a knife and fork (a different picture and diagram for each fruit, truly unbelievable!) for it to really work for me.

 

Telling them how to be different is the same as telling them to conform exactly to what everyone else does? Really?

 

Also, were I to try eating fruit with a knife and fork, I think I'd want a guide. Possibly several. :P

 

It strikes me as a bit representative of the piece. Do this! Or else... is the tone I'm getting. I believe that if the intention is to help people, then there is a better tone to take with people, one that sounds more like a conversation and less like a dressing-down.

 

I likely should remove some of the pronouns and make either the recipient or the deliverer of the advice impersonal. The tone likely seems more personal than intended at the moment.

 

If the quality of some work is making you a bit tetchy in your criticism, maybe you need to take a breather from the glamorous world of IA criticism, or maybe you need to be choosier with what you critique. Just a temporary vacation of sorts. It might help ease the suffering that the 'Teh Wolf Angels Chapter' IA (typed in all CAPS of course) has wreaked upon your soul.

 

I instituted secret minimum standards for what I'll respond to ages ago. This guide is so I have something I can point to when issuing particularly common criticisms and something people might occasionally read and get something out of. If I direct someone here for an explanation of why battles should be dealt with briefly, and they decide to also think through their chapter's motivations, this is all to the good.

 

* * *

 

KHK:

All excellent points, makes me feel almost feel a bit guilty at snapping at Octavulg first time he dove into the Death Heads. Almost. Ah, screw it, I felt guilty.

 

I won't hold it over you. No. I wouldn't do that. ;)

 

Personally, I put grey up their with black on popularity, but, regardless, these are all popular colors and clearly none have hindered the IA.

 

Grey's up there in DIYs, but not in official chapters quite so much. Of course, I had a narrower sample than "every GW chapter ever". I could theoretically do a grand unified graph, but I don't want to, nor do I think it'd be worth the efoort. :P

 

However, I feel obligated to note that all those IAs did something unusual with their color schemes.

 

The Ice Lords are predominantly powder blue. The Steel Ghosts have a good, coherent explanation for why they're grey. The Castigators are an unusual shade of red. The Astral Hawks use a different pattern than most. And the Imperial Castellans use an unusual pattern and an unusual shade of blue (and of white, come to that).

 

I did say that not using the colors was simply the easiest way of being different, and that you could simply use a more unusual pattern or lots of wargear or something. Likely should emphasize that a bit more.

 

This is one of those places where I think Octavulg has a bit of a personal issue (fight the power and all that).

 

Me? Moi? Certainly not. ;)

 

I also agree completely with the point on spelling. Paraplegic or dyslexic, everyone should spell correctly and shouldn't be using either as an excuse, albeit, typing with one's tongue could leave one in a hissy.

 

I'm likely being too strong there, to be honest. However...there's voice recognition software, spellcheck, and many, many other methods available. The job can be done right, and has been done right by people in worse circumstances. Try harder. Worse comes to worse, ask for advice on how.

 

* * *

 

If you can't work up the energy to steam clean your keyboard daily, I DON'T WANT TO READ YOUR IA! ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I for one am shocked that you mention Counter and Swallow, but totally fail to mention That Which Must Not Be Named... Goto.

[Ferrus Manus]

Heru Talon:

Your losing it Octavulg, it was Stratokhan :)

A small digression, given the terrible state that most keyboards are in, I cannot in any way endorse typing with one's tongue. It's unhygienic and you'll get sick :P

I expect you'd get used to it, but if you lost your tongue then you'd have a problem. :)

[Octavulg]

Dammit, I just fixed that. I was hoping no one noticed.

 

I admit. I would make an exception for quadriplegic, noseless, tongueless mutes.

 

Heh. Noseless isn't in my spellchecker but tongueless is.

[StratoKhan]

Heru Talon:

 

Not quite! I like to think I'm more handsome, in a rugged and dangerous sort of way.

 

I would argue that this makes it less likely, rather than more, because (at least theoretically), this would be a less personal medium for delivering the message. "Let me quote from the Guide I wrote last year" seems less of an individual attack than "you should not do this".

 

It does seem so, but as you've remarked, the tone in the Octaguide is very personal in parts.

 

I likely should remove some of the pronouns and make either the recipient or the deliverer of the advice impersonal. The tone likely seems more personal than intended at the moment.

 

That could definitely improve the tone.

 

See, some of this stuff would fit in the guide. But a lot of it wouldn't. And considering how often I repeat a large portion of that last, I don't think it could hurt to have this around. If only for my own convenience. A lot of this can't go in the DIY Guide. It's too subjective. This is how I think people should write (and paint and plan).

 

Seeing the guide in that light makes me understand it better.

 

Telling them how to be different is the same as telling them to conform exactly to what everyone else does? Really?

 

Well, telling people to be different is good advice, but I haven't explicitly seen it mentioned in the Octaguide. As it stands, it's more like telling them how you think things should be different. This is the part I'm having the most difficulty explaining so apologies if it's a bit garbled. In general it seems like a large selection of don'ts makes people narrow down their focus too much and you'll lose variety overall. But again, this is my opinion and I just think the guide could benefit from a part that covers what impresses you as much, as it benefits from its focus on what depresses you. It might add some balance. The example chapters are a start, but a bit more of that could maybe help. Maybe.

 

Also, were I to try eating fruit with a knife and fork, I think I'd want a guide. Possibly several. :)

 

Believe me, it's far more enjoyable to cut fruit from your diet altogether. I tried it and it wasn't fun. Using tools to 'undress' your fruits says a lot about the sexual repression prevalent in those days, but again I digress...

 

I instituted secret minimum standards for what I'll respond to ages ago.

 

Does that mean I passed?

 

This guide is so I have something I can point to when issuing particularly common criticisms and something people might occasionally read and get something out of. If I direct someone here for an explanation of why battles should be dealt with briefly, and they decide to also think through their chapter's motivations, this is all to the good.

 

See, this part above, for me at least, makes a far better preamble to your piece than the following:

 

I've been tempted to do this for a while at least in part because it lets me express a lot of vehemence without directing it at anyone in particular. Which is nice.

 

In any case, I feel like I understand your goals in regards to this guide far more now. And as you have seen it has been very popular with the posters, and hopefully you'll get some use from all this feedback. Good luck.

 

I'm going to steam clean my keyboard now. =)

[Octavulg]

Not quite! I like to think I'm more handsome, in a rugged and dangerous sort of way.

 

I think you used the same icon for a while or something.

 

It does seem so, but as you've remarked, the tone in the Octaguide is very personal in parts.

 

Well, I'm certainly keeping it now. I can call it the Octaguide!

 

Well, telling people to be different is good advice, but I haven't explicitly seen it mentioned in the Octaguide. As it stands, it's more like telling them how you think things should be different. This is the part I'm having the most difficulty explaining so apologies if it's a bit garbled. In general it seems like a large selection of don'ts makes people narrow down their focus too much and you'll lose variety overall. But again, this is my opinion and I just think the guide could benefit from a part that covers what impresses you as much, as it benefits from its focus on what depresses you. It might add some balance. The example chapters are a start, but a bit more of that could maybe help. Maybe.

 

"Focus on the differences, not the similarities?" ;)

 

The problem is that making a good idea is a very vague concept. I know what I don't like, but what I like is more nebulous - a lot of it's execution. I might well add more about writing a good IA to the guide, though. Could hardly hurt.

 

In any case, I feel like I understand your goals in regards to this guide far more now. And as you have seen it has been very popular with the posters, and hopefully you'll get some use from all this feedback. Good luck.

 

I'm the only one who sees vehemence as "really, really, really, really mean it", aren't I? :huh:

 

I'm going to steam clean my keyboard now. =)

 

You hadn't already? How dare you waste my valuable time! :D

[Lord of Insanity]

Not much to say about most of the things you talk about, the others tend to go into that, but I have a couple things that bothers me.

 

First: It's the Black Library part. You may not believe that Black Library is GW, and many agree with you from what I've seen, but to others (Me really, no idea who else would think this), Black Library is the novel arm of GW. And that makes their canon the same as GW's canon. Everything is up for grabs. Their canon is as good/bad/right/wrong just like GW's canon. Why else would they change the fluff in every codex, every piece of work they put out themselves? Warhammer 40,000 fluff is full of lies, half-truths, and wrong turns. Nothing is true, but nothing is false.

 

Second: The small author part. Yes, Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell are good writers, but so are Goto, Counter, and Swallow. But they are just a part of the BL staff and writing team. They all have their good parts in their books, and they have their bad. Author-hate/author-worship does not give them the ability to make a good/bad marines. Every author does something right, but they also do something bad. How they interpret the fluff is put into their works and creation, just like how IA creators implement their interpretations into their IAs.

[Octavulg]

First: It's the Black Library part. You may not believe that Black Library is GW, and many agree with you from what I've seen, but to others (Me really, no idea who else would think this), Black Library is the novel arm of GW. And that makes their canon the same as GW's canon. Everything is up for grabs. Their canon is as good/bad/right/wrong just like GW's canon. Why else would they change the fluff in every codex, every piece of work they put out themselves? Warhammer 40,000 fluff is full of lies, half-truths, and wrong turns. Nothing is true, but nothing is false.

 

I attempt to dismiss as much lousy fluff as possible. Considering the often execrable quality of Black Library and the minimal oversight by the central studio, I find it easier just to dismiss the entire thing rather than try and pick out what's good, what's bad, and what people think is good even though it's bad. :)

 

Plus, the Black Library rarely fluffs out areas that help an IA without producing at least as much that hinders it. At least, such is my experience.

 

Second: The small author part. Yes, Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell are good writers, but so are Goto, Counter, and Swallow. But they are just a part of the BL staff and writing team. They all have their good parts in their books, and they have their bad. Author-hate/author-worship does not give them the ability to make a good/bad marines. Every author does something right, but they also do something bad. How they interpret the fluff is put into their works and creation, just like how IA creators implement their interpretations into their IAs.

 

Yup. And what some of them come out with is absolute crap. No way around it. Lots of it doesn't make logical sense, violates established fluff so the author's idea can be special, and is often badly written. If many of the marine novels were IAs, they would be rightly ripped to shreds.

 

Of course, Abnett has produced at least one flawed Space Marine novel. I may make it more general, since as you say, they all make mistakes (though I insist that Sandy Mitchell makes far fewer than most). I could probably just point out the fact that the editorial oversight process here is probably more stringent than the BL's. :P

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Their canon is as good/bad/right/wrong just like GW's canon.

 

Wrong. BL is the only fluff source that is not internally coherent. GW and other sources (Forgeworld, Dark Heresy etc.) all do their best make sure that their products are coherent with one another - BL does not, and it shows up regularly and obviously. The fluff is secondary to the story for BL, and no matter how you look at it that makes it less authoritative.

[Ferrata]

Frankly, this was not intended to be part of the DIY Guide. This is mostly intended to be a collection of the things I complain most often about in a quick, moderately well-explained format.

Fair Enough. If you weren't intending it to go in the Guide, then the tone is fine for a post. You come across as a grumpy old man, but you haven't flammed anyone or trolled them (bar maybe Ben Counter and Graham McNeil, but as I am currently reading Fulgrim, you could burn the latter and then kick him and I wouldn't mind. I can't read the word perfection anymore!).

[Ferrus Manus]

Fair Enough. If you weren't intending it to go in the Guide, then the tone is fine for a post. You come across as a grumpy old man, but you haven't flammed anyone or trolled them (bar maybe Ben Counter and Graham McNeil, but as I am currently reading Fulgrim, you could burn the latter and then kick him and I wouldn't mind. I can't read the word perfection anymore!).

Ferrus Manus, the Dancing Queen of the Librarium :P

 

slightly off topic I know, but what didn't you like about it?

 

Touche :)

[Solomon de Gravier]

Octavulg: Sorry! I think I came across a little harsh. *everyone in the room suddenly bursts into frantic coughing and sneezing*

The advice I was giving was given with me assuming that you wanted this to be a guide and I curse my computer for my orribelhoriblele horrrrablel nasty spelling bad grammar. I meant no offence by what I said and i'm sorry if I caused any.

[Marshal Rohr]

;)

Frankly, this was not intended to be part of the DIY Guide. This is mostly intended to be a collection of the things I complain most often about in a quick, moderately well-explained format.

Fair Enough. If you weren't intending it to go in the Guide, then the tone is fine for a post. You come across as a grumpy old man, but you haven't flammed anyone or trolled them (bar maybe Ben Counter and Graham McNeil, but as I am currently reading Fulgrim, you could burn the latter and then kick him and I wouldn't mind. I can't read the word perfection anymore!).

 

True, I couldnt stand that book. GM has an obsession with Slaanesh and things that cannot be mentioned on a family forum.

 

Fair Enough. If you weren't intending it to go in the Guide, then the tone is fine for a post. You come across as a grumpy old man, but you haven't flammed anyone or trolled them (bar maybe Ben Counter and Graham McNeil, but as I am currently reading Fulgrim, you could burn the latter and then kick him and I wouldn't mind. I can't read the word perfection anymore!).

Ferrus Manus, the Dancing Queen of the Librarium :P

 

slightly off topic I know, but what didn't you like about it?

 

Touche ;)

 

Ferrus, I didnt know you liked to dance....

[Hubernator]

Sorry but I had to put this:

 

Do not paint your marines' feet in brighter colors

Bright colors draw the eye to them. Putting brighter colors all over the model in various spots will draw the eye to those spots. And the feet should not be the focus of your Space Marine. If you want to paint them a different color, paint them a color darker than majority of the paint scheme.

 

Totally and utterly disagree. Simply because I have them and in most cases it actually works out in general colours.

[Ace Debonair]

It also makes it a lot easier to read the same...damn...thing for the fifteenth time if you read it aloud. I recommend imitating Sean Connery while you do it.

 

Best advice ever. Great fun and highly practical, especially if you're rubbish at imitating the voice. :lol:

 

I'd personally consider changing 'do not make your chapter black or red' to something like 'think twice, thrice, or even four times about making your chapter black or red. There are a lot of chapters out there that will look very similar to yours.' Or, you know, something to this effect.

 

The difference to my mind between this thread and the "Adjective Nouns" thread is that is is posted by someone here in Liber who has several IAs of his own, and the "Adjective Nouns" was written by someone happy enough to insult newcomers without putting his own ideas for what a DIY chapter should be on the table, or without offering any sort of help to DIY writers other than scathing, unneccesary, none-too-subtle insults. In contrast, this thread offers advice and pointers for thinking up something out of the ordinary.

 

I'm the only one who sees vehemence as "really, really, really, really mean it", aren't I?

 

It looks that way. :P I think it can also be taken in a certain context as a substitute for agression or anger, so maybe that word needs changing for something else.

 

 

Ferrus Manus, the Dancing Queen of the Librarium

 

:devil:

I solemnly resolve never to irritate a moderator again. :lol:

[Marshal Rohr]

Sorry but I had to put this:

 

Do not paint your marines' feet in brighter colors

Bright colors draw the eye to them. Putting brighter colors all over the model in various spots will draw the eye to those spots. And the feet should not be the focus of your Space Marine. If you want to paint them a different color, paint them a color darker than majority of the paint scheme.

 

Totally and utterly disagree. Simply because I have them and in most cases it actually works out in general colours.

 

 

He is right, color theory and art composition are almost fields of science. Light Colors draw your eye, so your neon green boots draw the eye to the feet of you Chapter, you cant argue against it anymore than you can say you disagree with gravity. :devil:

[Octavulg]

Best advice ever. Great fun and highly practical, especially if you're rubbish at imitating the voice. laugh.gif

 

"The Ishe Lordsh have a long and prowd tradishun of servish to the Imperium..."

 

Yes. Yes it is.

 

I'd personally consider changing 'do not make your chapter black or red' to something like 'think twice, thrice, or even four times about making your chapter black or red. There are a lot of chapters out there that will look very similar to yours.' Or, you know, something to this effect.

 

Black and Red Are Not Cool and Unique will likely be the new title. :P

 

The difference to my mind between this thread and the "Adjective Nouns" thread is that is is posted by someone here in Liber who has several IAs of his own, and the "Adjective Nouns" was written by someone happy enough to insult newcomers without putting his own ideas for what a DIY chapter should be on the table, or without offering any sort of help to DIY writers other than scathing, unneccesary, none-too-subtle insults. In contrast, this thread offers advice and pointers for thinking up something out of the ordinary.

 

See, I think a little bit of preamable would have worked. All he had to do it was pitch it as a "write your own Space Marine chapter form" and it'd be fine. Posting it without explanation removed context and made it seem more insulting than it was intended.

 

Seriously. Cool and unique wears-sunglasses-indoors black? Classic stuff. :P Special must translate into material rewards? Just as much.

 

It looks that way. tongue.gif I think it can also be taken in a certain context as a substitute for agression or anger, so maybe that word needs changing for something else.

 

Probably. Ah well. Changes will be made tomorrow or later today, likely. I have schoolwork I should be doing.

 

Oh, lots of schoolwork...

[Lysimachus]

I have to say I really don't have any problems with this article. Admttedly I wouldn't use it as part of the 'proper' DIY Guide, but mostly it just said the things that I reckon most of us feel like saying half the time! Edit: Having said that, I'm not saying that the constructive suggestions given by various Fraters are bad ideas or that they wouldn't make for a better piece overall.

 

This however may simply be that I am myself quickly becoming a grumpy old man (being as I am rapidly approaching the grand old age of 31! ;) ).

 

Lysimachus

 

P.S. It should be noted that my judgement is perhaps somewhat suspect, as I also found the 'Adjective Nouns' thread to be one of the funniest I've seen in quite a while! ;)

[Octavulg]

This however may simply be that I am myself quickly becoming a grumpy old man (being as I am rapidly approaching the grand old age of 31! tongue.gif ).

 

Ha! My grumpiness doesn't even need those advanced years!

 

* * *

 

A revised version has been posted. A much, much longer revised version.

 

I can't finish a fifteen hundred word essay on China, but this...

 

Oy vey.

[Marshal Renatus]

OH OCTIE!! YOU'RE MY HERO!! *swoons*

 

Infinitely better than the first draft. Delivers all of the righteous IA slaughtering we've come to love and respect from you, in a format that doesn't make me feel like something you're scraping off your shoe. :lol:

 

Again, well done.

[Octavulg]

OH OCTIE!! YOU'RE MY HERO!! *swoons*

 

I know, baby. I know.

 

Infinitely better than the first draft. Delivers all of the righteous IA slaughtering we've come to love and respect from you, in a format that doesn't make me feel like something you're scraping off your shoe. tongue.gif

 

But...but you told me you liked that!

 

I'm sorry, it's been a long day. :lol:

 

Again, well done.

 

Thank you. I was especially impressed with the way you read it at about 23 words per second. ;)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ferrus Manus, the Dancing Queen of the Librarium

 

:lol:

I solemnly resolve never to irritate a moderator again. ;)

You were planning to before you saw that?

 

Sorry, random moderati. I was bored and went insane. Comes from being a daemon prince. Please don't kick me off the B and C, despite my immortality I cannot rejoin a forum that has banned me. This has been proven by Warseer.

 

I think I will delete the humorous but maybe slightly offensive scenario I just wrote.

[Marshal Renatus]

In my defense...I'm compiling inventory data, so it was an admittedly quick read through of the major sections. I didn't belabor too many of the finer details (like where you spelled "assumed" as "ssumed"...tsk, tsk. :lol: )...mostly because I trust you.

[Octavulg]

like where you spelled "assumed" as "ssumed"

 

...

 

:lol::

 

Oh well, I'll spellcheck it properly sometime. :P

 

Give it a more complete read sometime, then. ;)