why powerfists?

[King Tiger]

whats your take?

that I buy any weapon I feel like and damn peoples 1 track minded opinions

I might have 1 tactical squad with a fist, and the next one along has a lightning claw, another might have a combi plasma, or just a boltgun.

 

I don't like to fall into the MUST TAKE FISTS!!!1111!!! bandwagon

but then I also despise the MUST TAKE TRANSPORTS!!!111!!! bandwagon

[FlamingDeth]

whats your take?

that I buy any weapon I feel like and damn peoples 1 track minded opinions

I might have 1 tactical squad with a fist, and the next one along has a lightning claw, another might have a combi plasma, or just a boltgun.

 

I don't like to fall into the MUST TAKE FISTS!!!1111!!! bandwagon

but then I also despise the MUST TAKE TRANSPORTS!!!111!!! bandwagon

Taking "any weapon I feel like" works great in the modeling section, but trying to say "take whatever it doesn't matter" in the tactics section seems a bit daft. If you don't want to discuss the options that are the most effective in gameplay then you're probably in the wrong section of the forum.

 

I take fists in tactical squads when I don't have Combat Tactics. If I *do* have combat tactics, then I just take the wounds that I was going to take anyways and try to fall back from combat so I can shoot the buggers. I don't see it as worth making room for them if I'm only conceivably going to be using them for a turn or two (if I even use them at all), though if I have the points left over and (somehow) nothing to spend them on I might squeeze a couple in.

[Koremu]

Frankly I don't ever take the same Squad multiple times in a single list (indeed, I'm always slightly depressed by those lists that just have two identical Flamer/ML Tactical Squads). What I do is equip to purpose. If the Tactical Squad is intended to operate as backup to my Command Squad (for example), then they probably won't get a Power Fist themselves. They'll have shooty upgrades instead.

 

On the other hand, I almost always take at least one Power Fist armed 10 man Tactical Squad, because the opportunity to deploy a Power Fist with 9 spare wounds in a Rhino half way up the board is invaluable in Dawn of War.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

whats your take?

that I buy any weapon I feel like and damn peoples 1 track minded opinions

I might have 1 tactical squad with a fist, and the next one along has a lightning claw, another might have a combi plasma, or just a boltgun.

 

I don't like to fall into the MUST TAKE FISTS!!!1111!!! bandwagon

but then I also despise the MUST TAKE TRANSPORTS!!!111!!! bandwagon

Well I play to win. Such is the judgment of the righteous

[pingo]

If my tactical squad is holding an objective and a nasty unit like a dread is charging towards them, I'm sure as hell not going to jump in my Rhino and run away.

[Possessed Marine]

Ok, here's what happened... game of planetstrike, had 7 Plague Marines in a bastion, champion had a powersword, my buddy drop podded an Ironclad right next to the bastion, about one and a half minutes later, I was wishing I had a powerfist... they are very crucial to have, just for that one contingency that you don't see coming at you, not nesissarily this one, but one that you don't know about... that's right an unknown unknown

[Voltaire]

You show an opening, your opponent is going to flood that opening with every one of your worst nightmares.

 

Good, saves me the time of finding them myself. If they are going to come to me I'm much obliged to simply set up a kill zone around my 'weakness'.

 

25 points each tac squad is a very small price to pay to close that opening and require your opponent to actually think about how to use his army. Those monster ICs and dreads are going to laugh at your paltry krak grenades and one melta shot as they rip apart one of the vital components to your army without incident. Having a small chance of IKing that IC or wrecking that dread/defiler is much better than having no chance at all, and your opponent knows it.

Vital? No.

Valuable? To a certain extent.

Honestly the vast majority of large-killy-things you'll fight are dread's so why not simply buy an MB? Works just as well and twice as effective.

Really what your going to be doing is providing support with the tac-squads. They are not meant to be the core of an assault/shooty force. Your elites and heavies however, ARE.

 

They're technically an option, and you can sometimes pass by without them if your opposition is suitably weak. However, if your opponent knows what he's doing and sends the correct threat to your tac squads, you want to be ready and able to hit back and cause some damage yourself rather than sit there and chip his paint job while he wrecks your troops.

Or you could simply avoid getting into such a situation. Hence the need of a rhino.

True there are many situations where it is neccassary to hold position. But then you can simply have a heavy weapons squad stop the monster before it even reaches you.

 

Yeah, having counter CC units close by helps, but if they're there, than an opening in your opponent's formation is being ignored. SMs are not cheap enough to buy one unit for every conceivable battlefield role. You have to give them multiple roles and be ready for every one of your units to be in a situation that they are not optimal for. A Power Fist isn't much, but it's cheap for what it can do should the crap hit the fan.

It's not cheap. You can use those same points to buy more units/ranged heavy-weapons. Tactical squads are better overall as infantry vs Light-armor/infantry/weakened monsters. Your wasting them against anything else.

I don't need a counter cc unit, I have guns. I use them. You want to run gleefully into assualt be my guest. I'll sit in cover and shoot them from a distance while you die.

[angry man]

On the other hand, I almost always take at least one Power Fist armed 10 man Tactical Squad, because the opportunity to deploy a Power Fist with 9 spare wounds in a Rhino half way up the board is invaluable in Dawn of War.

no no no... intending for your tacticals to make combat is setting up for a fail. thats how you waste them

 

If my tactical squad is holding an objective and a nasty unit like a dread is charging towards them, I'm sure as hell not going to jump in my Rhino and run away.

well to be honest, your tact squad shouldnt be out of the rhino anyway and if you target prioritise adequately, a single dread should never be an issue

 

 

Ok, here's what happened... game of planetstrike, had 7 Plague Marines in a bastion, champion had a powersword, my buddy drop podded an Ironclad right next to the bastion, about one and a half minutes later, I was wishing I had a powerfist...

planetstrike requires a whole different army lits/plan/way of thinking. that and its rubbish

 

they are very crucial to have, just for that one contingency that you don't see coming at you, not nesissarily this one, but one that you don't know about... that's right an unknown unknown

theres no reason why there should be anything you dont see. when planning an army list, especially for all-comers there should be nothing you're not aware of. you should know your strength, and what your units are good at as well as their weaknesses and what theyre not so good at. more importantly you should know the strengths/weakness' of your list as a whole, and this is what makes the powerfist redundant in a tactial squad. there should be other units/tactics in place to deal with what you might think they would handle

 

AM

[infyrana]

Angry Man... with no intention of flaming anyone here (yourself included!)... it does indeed sound to me as though you are 100% guaranteed sure of yourself that your entire gaming plan and skillset has not once ever led to you needing a powerfist in a tactical squad. You sound as though nothing in the gaming world of 40k with an armour value could possibly assault your marines at any stage. I find it almost fanatical the way in which you assure all these players that there is never a need for one, or that one should ever be assaulted.

 

Have you never found yourself in a situation where some form of powerfist type weapon was the only thing your tactical squad could have used to defend itself and win a hand-to-hand fight ? What about when your rhino is blown and your squad is assaulted because your shooting dice sucked and failed to save the day... ?

 

Your experiences and past encounters will be much awaited :)

 

(personally, I hate powerfists, older poses were horrid and boring, and far uglier than the chaos fists.. Thunder Hammers all the way for me :) )

[Jackelope King]

This. All of this.

As above. When you're planning your list out, every unit you include has a specific role in mind. For me, Tactical Squads hold the middle, often firing out of the top hatch of a Rhino with a Multimelta to deter incoming enemy vehicles, creaing a 24" "don't mess with me" bubble around an armored bunker. They aren't supposed to get in close combat. If they do, my opponent has already out-played me pretty well, or I'm using them for a delaying tactic. If you don't already have an answer to common threats like MCs and Dreads in triplicate in your list (especially with Nids making a come-back), it's simply folly to expect a Tactical Squad to pick up the slack when the odds are so far stacked against them.

 

Which would you rather have: an average of one extra wound dealt when close combat specialists tear into your Tactical squad, or some protection against being charged in the first place? I know we'd all rather have a unit that can do it all, ready for every eventuality, but that quickly becomes cost-prohibitive. Better to skimp on the power fist for a tactical squad and be 5/7 of the way towards a Rhino for another Tactical Squad. Remember, you win the game not by having the most versatile squads, but by jamming more threats onto the board than your opponent can deal with. This is why Refused Flank wins game. This is why the mobility afforded Marines by Mech wins games. More defense, more ability to take objectives, and more mobility vs. insurance when things get messed up.

 

Versatility has its place, of course, but it's simply cost-prohibitive for some squads to gain that versatility. The best thing you can do when your tacticals have a Dread or MC smashing their faces in is to Combat Tactics away from the fight, rally, and then fire your heavy weapon (ideally a free MM or ML) and let other nearby heavies deal with it. TH/SS termies deal with CC specialists. Geared-up biker command squads deal with CC specialists. Tactical squads don't.

[Jackelope King]

With respect to everyone here and a heaping dose of assumption, might I suggest that angry man doesn't go by "arrogant man" for a reason?

 

I believe what he's saying is not that his genius will always allow him to save his Tacticals from getting mulched, but rather that relying on a Tactical Squad to kill a Dread in close combat is a very poor contingency plan. Good lists and good strategies have redundancy built in. If my first Predator doesn't crack the transport, then hopefully my second or third will. Unless it comes to claiming objectives or dealing with exposed light infantry, your Tacticals should never be your go-to guys. They're simply not equiped to handle it. They also shouldn't be your first contingency, or your second. If your list lacks redundancy to the point where you must rely on Tacticals as your plan B for dealing with Dreads, for instance, instead of your plan D or E, I think your need to reconsider how you're spending your points.

[angry man]

Angry Man... with no intention of flaming anyone here (yourself included!)... it does indeed sound to me as though you are 100% guaranteed sure of yourself that your entire gaming plan and skillset has not once ever led to you needing a powerfist in a tactical squad. You sound as though nothing in the gaming world of 40k with an armour value could possibly assault your marines at any stage. I find it almost fanatical the way in which you assure all these players that there is never a need for one, or that one should ever be assaulted.

 

Have you never found yourself in a situation where some form of powerfist type weapon was the only thing your tactical squad could have used to defend itself and win a hand-to-hand fight ? What about when your rhino is blown and your squad is assaulted because your shooting dice sucked and failed to save the day... ?

 

Your experiences and past encounters will be much awaited :)

 

(personally, I hate powerfists, older poses were horrid and boring, and far uglier than the chaos fists.. Thunder Hammers all the way for me :) )

i didnt say that they would NEVER EVER because of course there are accaisions where a powerfist may have proved useful. but that still does not mean that, given i write all-comers lists, powerfists worth taking on tactical marines (especially at 25pts a pop). the ratio of units a powerfist is useful against:powerfist is not useful against, is heavily in favour of the latter. MY tactical squads contingecy/insurance is its rhino. yes it may be destroyed, so then we make the most of a bad situation; and i have to adapt my strategy a little. this, as mentioned in my previous post, is all factored in when building a list. if i end up in combat then one of 2 things will happen. 1.i win good for me, 2. i lose, use combat tactics to fall back, regroup and we're good to go again. if i get caught, "oh no!" i take a few more saves.

 

taking 2 contingency plans, as far as im concerned, is far too defensive.

 

AM

[Hellios]

This argument is pointless, one side says fists are good, the other says rhinos are... as a person with about 9 marine armies and a number of other armies but mainly an eldar player... I will say this...

 

Maybe you don't normally want your tacticals in combat with anything that needs a power fist but if you don't have one and it happens... well sucks to be you...

 

On the other hand people say Rhinos... well Rhinos are good however as a reliable defence? Meh if your holding objectives it restricts you from running, if it's a KP mission... well... thanks for the KP's.

 

It's swings and round abouts... ask any black templar and they will tell you if you want to keep your squad safe give it a melta and a power fist and stick it in a blessed land raider crusader and laugh at everything...

[greatcrusade08]

Honestly the vast majority of large-killy-things you'll fight are dread's so why not simply buy an MB? Works just as well and twice as effective.

 

Really? meltabombs are twice as effective as powerfists at killing dreads..

Care to show your math/working out..... seriously ill be here waiting...

 

Here let me help start you off

Powerfist 2 attacks base hitting on 4's

Meltabombs 1 attack hitting on a 6......

 

Ill let you finish off, i wouldnt want to get in your way <_<

[Grey Mage]

Yeah.... I as kinda thinking the same thing *headscratch*.

[Warprat]

Lively discussion... well done angryman!

 

 

I think it comes down to army building. At one extreme is taking a maximum of non-upgraded units, quantity. At the other extream is taking well rounded units, quality. Angryman is only addressing Tac squads though, which is very interesting, because it lies somewhere in the middle. The middle is the most interesting, because it is an art, more than a science.

 

 

 

Angryman, what weapons do you give your Tac squads? Do you specialize them, or generalize them?

 

 

Specialize:

 

Plasma Cannon, plasma gun.

Multi-melta, melta gun (or las cannon, melta gun.)

 

 

 

Generalize:

 

Plasma cannon, flamer.

Missile launcher, plasma gun.

 

 

 

I like your use of combat tactics. Don't see many people actually taking advantage of that. Kudos to you! You say that you use powerfists in other squads. Can you post an army list that shows what choices you make? It would be interesting to see where you put your points saved. Again, the art of the middle...

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Warprat ;)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I use combat tactics all the time run away and shoot them! why not

[King Tiger]

whats your take?

that I buy any weapon I feel like and damn peoples 1 track minded opinions

I might have 1 tactical squad with a fist, and the next one along has a lightning claw, another might have a combi plasma, or just a boltgun.

 

I don't like to fall into the MUST TAKE FISTS!!!1111!!! bandwagon

but then I also despise the MUST TAKE TRANSPORTS!!!111!!! bandwagon

Taking "any weapon I feel like" works great in the modeling section, but trying to say "take whatever it doesn't matter" in the tactics section seems a bit daft. If you don't want to discuss the options that are the most effective in gameplay then you're probably in the wrong section of the forum.

you win games by using what you take effectively, not by taking whats effective from the very start, anyone can take a power fist not everyone can use it properly, so why should everyone take it?

Well I play to win. Such is the judgment of the righteous

well I don't and never will and don't want to.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Well I play to win. Such is the judgment of the righteous

well I don't and never will and don't want to.

 

Well thats pretty sad

[angry man]

Lively discussion... well done angryman!

ta very much

 

Angryman, what weapons do you give your Tac squads? Do you specialize them, or generalize them?

 

 

Specialize:

 

Plasma Cannon, plasma gun.

Multi-melta, melta gun (or las cannon, melta gun.)

 

 

 

Generalize:

 

Plasma cannon, flamer.

Missile launcher, plasma gun.

10 man, multi-melta, flamer, rhino -- 205pts. 2-3 squads

take up positions in the mid-field. 24" danger zone to AV12 or less. 12" danger zon to any AV. shred any horde that comes near. now by no means are they meant to be indestructible, and of course may have their rhino destroyed or assaulted. their rhino and support from other units should keep them safe or at least allow them do escape from dangers they cant handle.

 

I like your use of combat tactics. Don't see many people actually taking advantage of that. Kudos to you! You say that you use powerfists in other squads. Can you post an army list that shows what choices you make? It would be interesting to see where you put your points saved. Again, the art of the middle...

1500pts would look something like this:

 

libby; TDA, null zone, avenger - 125pts

 

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

 

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

assault termies; 8termies, TH/SS - 320

 

speeder; MM/HF - 70

speeder; MM/HF - 70

 

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

 

i have psychic defence, plenty of fire support both anti tank AND horde. and then i have a cc punch. i tend not to run assault marines, they pale in comparison to the termies. bikes would make an appearance in a larger game, preferably with th presence of a bike captain, although they still probably wouldnt take a fist.

 

AM

[Possessed Marine]

]planetstrike requires a whole different army lits/plan/way of thinking. that and its rubbish

Really? what about it is rubbish? Isn't the whole battle plan of the Adeptus Astartes planetary assault? I personally think that this is the best possible way that GW could have possibly pulled off the planetary invasion part of the whole game... I personally LOVE the expansion, I start out all my campaigns that way... if you can't get a foothold on a planet, what chances of conquering said planet do you have?

[Jackelope King]

1500pts would look something like this:

 

libby; TDA, null zone, avenger - 125pts

 

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

 

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

assault termies; 8termies, TH/SS - 320

 

speeder; MM/HF - 70

speeder; MM/HF - 70

 

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

 

i have psychic defence, plenty of fire support both anti tank AND horde. and then i have a cc punch. i tend not to run assault marines, they pale in comparison to the termies. bikes would make an appearance in a larger game, preferably with th presence of a bike captain, although they still probably wouldnt take a fist.

 

AM

Like the list. I think you're pretty daring throwing that big of an assault terminator squad down at 1500 points and foot-slogging / deep striking them in. Librarian runs with the Terminators?

[Hellios]

libby; TDA, null zone, avenger - 125pts

 

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

 

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

assault termies; 8termies, TH/SS - 320

 

speeder; MM/HF - 70

speeder; MM/HF - 70

 

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

 

Why do people allow your only scoring units to survive? Even in rhinos two tactical squads are not that hard to kill. Do they get scurred by the other units they deem to be a threat and so ignore them? I would love to play you with a Dark Eldar raider spam list... I'm pretty sure we could destroy each other really quickly... the carnage the carnage.

[angry man]

yeh i like termies, theyre the only real cc unit C:SM has. but take a unit of 5, means you have to take a raider, which means you have to take 2 which just ends up expensive. i think 7+ is waht you need to be able to carry the risk of footslogging. but tbh if las/melta is hitting them, then its leaving the rest of my armour alone. rhinos can provide some cover, as can terrain. i expect to lose a few, but it only takes a couple to take chinks out of an opponent. yeh libby runs with them. wouuld like to get him a SS but cant find the points. ah well its not crucial

 

Why do people allow your only scoring units to survive? Even in rhinos two tactical squads are not that hard to kill. Do they get scurred by the other units they deem to be a threat and so ignore them? I would love to play you with a Dark Eldar raider spam list... I'm pretty sure we could destroy each other really quickly... the carnage the carnage.

my target is always to table my opponent and if theyre concentrating in removing my troops, i can choose my target at will and pick him (or her) apart

raider spam is nasty as hell. you evil person for running that list :)

 

AM

[Captain Idaho]

To throw another aspect to consider into the melting pot for discussion;

 

Consider many games of 40K boil down to a handful of survivers in each most units on either side after 4 turns of play, a powerfist becomes a poweful asset in a 4 man selection of remnants of a Tactical which ends squaring up against a Wraithlord with 2 wounds. Likewise, when there are 2 Ork Nobz left in assault against your Tactical squad of 6 men you will be thankful of a powerfist.

 

Similarly, being able to kill a Lictor in 1 hit to enable you to get out assault and ready to fire next turn is very important.

 

I have lost count the amount of times a power weapon wielding sergeant gets 2 hits and no wounds against T4 opponents. It's so much more reassuring to get that hit and wound so much easier.

 

Obviously it is a matter of choice, but if I had to choose assault weapons for 3 full Tactical squads, I would definitely go 2 powerfists and probably just a normal CC and pistol for the 3rd squad (maybe I would add a power weapon if I had the points spare, but that is rare).

 

So basically, if using a 10 man unit, the assault power of the squad is greatly helped with a power fist, as it helps from being locked in combat easily and grants tactical options for them.