why powerfists?

[rat of vengence]

taking upgrades may also lead to you overstretching your tactical squads, thowing them down the throat of things that can best them (i for one would be happy if my damaged dread/wounded fex took out a handful of marines before it fell to a fist)

 

AM

Overstretched like how you plan to have your 3 squads holding the midfield? You still haven't explained how they will avoid combat after their rhinos have been popped by any competent player. Against many enemies you have 1 round of rapid fire before they assault your donkey. A powerfist will make some units think twice.

 

I run a squad with MM and Meltagun in a rhino. It has no fist, because it is designed to deny an area and melt anything big that comes its way. Another squad with a flamer and plasma cannon is often combat squadded, and the flamer, serg with fist and combiflamer, and 3 others ride their razorback to where they can add a couple of templates, or help out in an ongoing assault. If they stay as a 10 man unit, I place them where I don't want outflanking/deepstriking units to go. That powerfist makes them too damaging to ignore.

 

Noone is saying every squad needs one. But to say they have no place or value with tactical marines is pure head-in-sand stuff.

 

RoV

[rat of vengence]

agreed, you dont know how a game is going to play out until the minis and dice hit the table.. you may turn up expecting to play a chaos army and find your opponent has brought guard..

 

sometimes your tac squad will have to deal with hordes, other times dreadnoughts.. you cant choose your opponents minis so you have to bolster your options.. be more flexible

 

Oh, I'm all about generalising in a list, just that a 10 man Tac Squad is poor place to do it. Lascannon Razorbacks with five man squads with a Flamer, Heavy Bolter ones with a Meltagun, Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Speeders, Tactical Terminators, Dakka Preds all have dual roles in a list and do their jobs better than the swiss army knife 10 man squad.

You have tactical squads on the table. For a modest points cost, they can be made greatly more capable to handle a variety of opponents, instead of a rapid firing speedbump.

Also, the Razorback and Landspeeders can die to a single pulse rifle. The 10 man squad doesn't. But hey, you're comparing apples to oranges anyway, so the point is moot.

 

RoV

[greatcrusade08]

Its like this:

you either take a:

chainsword

power sword or

power fist

 

If your running plain chainsword you would get a beat down from people like me who run outflanking ccw scout squads, or LSS teams with a PW

if your running PW its probably with a pistol to get the +1A as it offers no bonus to hit or wound rolls.

If you use a PW you may aswell pay ten points for the fist to increase the usage of the unit

[Jackelope King]

Lemee sum up what I've gotten off track about a few... well, dozen times now :)

 

1. A Power Fist is a marginally-expensive investment for an already pricey unit of troops. If the cost is to be justified, it must offer significant benefits over other uses of that point-cost elsewhere in an army.

2. The use of a power fist against MCs or Dreads is not necessarily optimal. Rather, shooting with a squad that has two available melta weapons is more effective than charging a Dread (46% likelyhood of destroying the Dread vs 40%), and charging an MC with a Power Fist is only very marginally more effective than shooting with two available melta weapons (80-ish% vs 90-ish%). Charging either of these units significantly increases the risk of losing multiple Marines to the unit before it is removed from play. The risk-benefit ratio here is moot.

3. The use of a power fist against close combat specialists can only serve as a deterrant, as the average of 1 unsaved wound it will cause when charged by close-combat specialists will not significantly alter the outcome of close combat against close-combat specialists.

4. The use of a power fist against units weak in close combat is usually overkill. You don't need a power fist to squish Tau Fire Warriors or IG squads.

5. In cases where you yourself are charged by an enemy unit, the single extra wound a Power Fist is likely to deal is outweighed by the benefit of using Combat Tactics to fall back from combat and then rapid-fire, which also serves to open the enemy unit to fire from the rest of your army (as opposed to being stuck in close combat). Note that this option is not enjoyed by armies which sacrifice Combat Tactics for other special characters, and must be acknowledged as a factor when considering your equipment.

6. The points spent on the Power Fist are signfiicant enough that they make the difference between a bare-bones support unit (like a heavy bolter or heavy flamer Land Speeder, a sponson-less Predator, an unupgraded Dreadnought and almost a Tactical Squad going without a Rhino) and an upgraded one (like a MM/HF Land Speeder, a Dakka Predator, a Rifleman Dread and a Rhino for a tactical squad), all of which can serve as effectively or more effectively in mitigating the threats described above.

 

Therefore, the advantages of a power fist are significant enough that the price tag must be factored in, especially when that same price can be used elsewhere to mitigate the threats a power fist is said to protect against. The benefit that does exist in the power fist (which must be acknowledged) is situational enough that those points are often better spent on another unit in an all-comers list.

[Sparhawk]

I can definitely see where you are coming from. In fact my 2500pt Calgar list on the Army list forum has a big whopping 0 powerfists....except for the 2 on Calgar :D.

 

What I chose to do instead was get Melta-bombs (because I don't think I've ever hit with a MM or a melta in melta range :P ) and buy a multi-melta for my LRs. I think I used the leftover points to give my outflanking CC scouts a PW.

[Jackelope King]

Multimeltas on Land Raiders is an amazing deal, especially when you consider PotMS and their role in delivering assault units. So you can roll up, fire your sponson and turret weapons at an enemy unit, then PotMS to fire your multimelta to try to pop a transport for your assault unit to feed on what spills out. Or you can PotMS to blast a threatening nearby enemy unit (like a Dread or MC) to make life easier for your assault unit.

[Bartali]

As an example of what I'm trying to say, and I think Jackelope King is too, look at these three different troop choices from the DA codex (I'm sure SW,BT,DA,UM etc have equivalent builds)

 

Assuming three troops choices in a 1500pt game :-

 

720pts

10 man Tactical Squadx3 (Power Fist, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino)

 

725pts

5 man Tactical Squadx2 (Flamer, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Deathwing Squad (PF/AC, PF/SBx2, CF/SB, PW/SB, Apothecary Upgrade)

Predator (Autocannon/Heavy Bolters)

 

Which gives

 

3xTac 2xTac/Pred/DW

Power Fist 3 3

Chain Fist 0 1

Power Weapon 0 1

Flamer 3 2

Bolter 24 0

Storm Bolter 3 4

Heavy Bolter 0 2

Assault Cannon 0 1

Auto Cannon 0 1

Missile Launcher3 0

Lascannon 0 2

 

The 2xTac/Pred/DW is much more flexible with it's targets and and can deal with most things on the board. The 3xTac squad set up, while it does have some flexibility, is much more geared towards anti-infantry.

 

Having an all-comers approach is better done across the army as a whole, rather than having the cost of trying to make your Tac squads do everything

[Sparhawk]

I like what you're saying Bartali I'm just not sure that vanilla marines really have a good analogue for DW termies (at least I assume their termies as I don't know diddly about DA :woot:) in the troops category.

 

I also generally opt for 10 man tac squads because with 5 men UMs lose all special and heavy weapon options so all you have is 5 bolters, and I may skimp down to maybe 2 troops in 1500pts and combat squad them in an objective grabbing game.

[angry man]

taking upgrades may also lead to you overstretching your tactical squads, thowing them down the throat of things that can best them (i for one would be happy if my damaged dread/wounded fex took out a handful of marines before it fell to a fist)

 

AM

Overstretched like how you plan to have your 3 squads holding the midfield? You still haven't explained how they will avoid combat after their rhinos have been popped by any competent player. Against many enemies you have 1 round of rapid fire before they assault your donkey. A powerfist will make some units think twice.

 

I run a squad with MM and Meltagun in a rhino. It has no fist, because it is designed to deny an area and melt anything big that comes its way. Another squad with a flamer and plasma cannon is often combat squadded, and the flamer, serg with fist and combiflamer, and 3 others ride their razorback to where they can add a couple of templates, or help out in an ongoing assault. If they stay as a 10 man unit, I place them where I don't want outflanking/deepstriking units to go. That powerfist makes them too damaging to ignore.

 

Noone is saying every squad needs one. But to say they have no place or value with tactical marines is pure head-in-sand stuff.

 

RoV

i wish that people would stop pidgeon-holing the topic int just about tactical squads. what a competent player would do, would be to consider the army as a whole; if you read my posts correctly you would see that i continuously state that.

 

my tacticals (only 2 squads at 1500 btw, not 3) plan to sit in the mid-field with their MM and their flamer. if something wants to come close thats fine by me. armour heading that way will first eat the melta from the tacts, and then if that isnt suffiecient, i have a few other AV threats kicking around. yeh, ok, the rhino might, and probably will get wrecked eventually. thats cool. anybody who wants to assault me can eat a round of flamer and bolter fire first. At the end of the day, i dont expect anything outstanding from any single unit. i expect them to work together - if somethings shooting my rhinos, theyre not shooting my dreads/speeders/predators. if they want to assault my tacticals, it wont be too long before the termies arrive.

 

the thing is, having 2 completely different tactical squads means that it easier to target prioritise against you

 

and the powerfist isnt a ver big threat - one guardsman, oh no!! one gaunt, oh no! one fire warrior, oh no! it doesnt even make a huge difference against another marine squad -- its only one marine!!! (something i think i could ignore) and they dont make enough of a difference to be worth 25 pts. but hey thats my opinion

 

AM

[Koremu]

I'm not sure I trust your competence, after reading your posts in this thread.

 

Certainly, I use Power Fists an any number of Squads. Assault Squads, Vanguard Squads, Command Squads, Scout Squads... practically the only option I haven't taken a Fist on in recent games is the Devastator Squad, and that might have something to do with the fact that I haven't fielded Devs in over a year :huh:

 

And your silliness about Fire Warriors and Guardsmen is ridiculous. The concept of the Power Fist is to cope with things that the rest of the Tactical Squad can't. Talk about guardsmen is irrelevant. Talk about MCs and Dreads, not so much.

 

Frankly, given the expense that one already has spent to put the Squad on the field, can you afford not to give them the upgrades to make them worthwhile? That's conceptually much like taking a Dev Squad and then not buying them any Heavy Weapons.

[Bartali]

I like what you're saying Bartali I'm just not sure that vanilla marines really have a good analogue for DW termies (at least I assume their termies as I don't know diddly about DA :D) in the troops category.

 

I also generally opt for 10 man tac squads because with 5 men UMs lose all special and heavy weapon options so all you have is 5 bolters, and I may skimp down to maybe 2 troops in 1500pts and combat squad them in an objective grabbing game.

 

I'm not an expert on the Space Marine codex, but I'd imagine something similar (and cheaper, bloomin' DA codex :))could be done. Substitute the Deathwing for bikes (via a Space Marine Captain on a bike) or Sternguard (admittedly not troops but Kantor makes them scoring)

[Xeonic]

...

and the powerfist isnt a ver big threat - one guardsman, oh no!! one gaunt, oh no! one fire warrior, oh no! it doesnt even make a huge difference against another marine squad -- its only one marine!!! (something i think i could ignore) and they dont make enough of a difference to be worth 25 pts. but hey thats my opinion

...

This is silly, you don't take a powerfist to kill gaunts or guard, you take it to give your tactical squad a punch vs vehicles, walkers, MCs, and as an added bonus will help put wounds on any infantry, instant death multi wound T4 moels. You're taking the tacticals anyways, and the sarge with the chainsword is already a significant percent of the assault capability of the squad.

 

A TH/SS terminator is also just a marine, and hey, he has the same statline as the sergeant aside from his saves. That's one of the great things about the codex marines, everything infantry/non IC is basically a marine. Veterans are just marines with better ld and an extra attack, terminators are just veterans in power armor. "Just a Marine" is something to be respected on the field IMO.

 

Tactical marines aren't meant to wipe out assault specialists in CC, but they can take pretty much anything else, which is pretty good for a range oriented squad IMO.

 

I'm not saying you have to take fists on your tacticals at all, I'm saying I like to because it gives them a broader range of engagement options for the bargain 25 pt cost.

For the 50-75 pts I spend on fists, I could get all of what, one speeder, one razorback weapon upgrade, some sponsons?

My lists are generally built around a core of strong tactical squads, I'm willing to spend the points to let them be all they can be. Not every one of my squads gets a fist, but the ones that are likely to see some CC action do.

 

I'm not sure what all the argument is all about anyways, people that already like fists will keep using them, and people who disdain them won't, and nothing said will likely change that. In my last post I was trying to point out that each sergeant upgrade has it's element, and while the fist isn't a "must have" in all situations, it has served me well enough many times that I will continue to take them in many situations.

Worst case, it's a 25 point insurance policy that can kill that tank dead that my melta failed on, or mop up horde survivors I've just flamed to ash.

[Sparhawk]

I would also like to point out that, much like meltaguns, a pfist will make a vehicle think twice about stopping in assault range of your tactical squads (which is why I take meltabombs).

 

I think the issue of "If you're tac squad gets assaulted by an MC or Walker you've already failed" is somewhat oversimplistic, especially in the era of deepstriking MCs and armies being built to pop pretty much every transport on the board turn 1. While I agree that a 25pt insurance policy is very pricey it isn't solely an insurance policy and paying to make sure that all contingencies are covered will ensure that none are. I personally like to have 1 powerfist sarge in my army, and while any reason I could give would be purely anecdotal I think that certain units have a perceived threat factor that can be used to your advantage much in the same way my vindicators will draw fire away from the LR carrying my termies.

[angry man]

I'm not sure I trust your competence, after reading your posts in this thread.

 

Certainly, I use Power Fists an any number of Squads. Assault Squads, Vanguard Squads, Command Squads, Scout Squads... practically the only option I haven't taken a Fist on in recent games is the Devastator Squad, and that might have something to do with the fact that I haven't fielded Devs in over a year ^_^

 

And your silliness about Fire Warriors and Guardsmen is ridiculous. The concept of the Power Fist is to cope with things that the rest of the Tactical Squad can't. Talk about guardsmen is irrelevant. Talk about MCs and Dreads, not so much.

 

Frankly, given the expense that one already has spent to put the Squad on the field, can you afford not to give them the upgrades to make them worthwhile? That's conceptually much like taking a Dev Squad and then not buying them any Heavy Weapons.

im not too sure i trust yours either - you run assault squads, vanguard squads and scout squads - all units that i dont feel are competitive. what would be interesting is if i made my way to nottingham, see how competent you feel i am after my fistless tacticals have a stab at your fisty ones

 

the guard/fire warrior/gaunt thing was in response to the comment about a fist deterring outflanking units so if you think about it, its not that silly (what was silly was the initial comment (and me not clarifying properly, my bad)

 

to compare a fistless tactical squad to a heavyless dev sqd is also silly. in fact its stupid - the single point of a dev sqd is to take heavy weapons - come on, you can think of better reaoning than that.

 

at the end of the day, i dont feel that marines were built to be in cc. assault termies, yep, they were. assault marines, yep they were but just cant compete with other armies cc units, nor can they adequately compete against speeders for FA slots. for me, if my marines hit combat, they get out asap. yeah ok, the fist might take a model before i fall back, but is that one model really going to be worth the 25pts i paid for it?? id much sooner have the "all of one speeder, rzb upgrade or sponsons" at least i get to use these every turn and can expect a decent return for my points.

 

@koremu - or anybody else who thinks im a bit silly/lacking in competence, i would be interested in seeing your build. just from curiosity i would like to see how the fists become such a valuable addition.

 

AM

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

angry you've seen my lists! so you know how I use mine.

 

also If you do ever take these grudge match trips somebody bring the video camera we need batreps! hahah

[angry man]

angry you've seen my lists! so you know how I use mine.

 

also If you do ever take these grudge match trips somebody bring the video camera we need batreps! hahah

yeh man its all gravy. my little bros a uni in nottingham, so its entirely possible. maybe when i straightened out my proxies

 

AM

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

You aren't factoring in the most important element here, :D it happens and it happens a lot to troops. So, it might be more effective to shoot that Dread with your two meltaguns than charge. Of course you could always do BOTH and insure the death of that entombed fellow. Same with MC's. And the fact that a PF can Instagib half the HQ's in the game is an added bonus. I don't know about you but my tacticals usually end up assaulting something over the course of the game.It might be a firebase unit I want to shut up or an enemy that doesn't expect a charge. Sometimes assaulting with tacticals is very wise move and takes your enemy quite off guard when you actually start killing his PM's, Bikes, Termies, etc.

[rat of vengence]

i wish that people would stop pidgeon-holing the topic int just about tactical squads. what a competent player would do, would be to consider the army as a whole; if you read my posts correctly you would see that i continuously state that.

 

my tacticals (only 2 squads at 1500 btw, not 3)

Really? So this earlier post doesn't count? :)

on the contrary, i currently run 3 10man tac sqds w/MM/flamer in a rhino.

 

Second time you have been corrected with your own quotes dude, lol.

 

plan to sit in the mid-field with their MM and their flamer. if something wants to come close thats fine by me. armour heading that way will first eat the melta from the tacts, and then if that isnt suffiecient, i have a few other AV threats kicking around. yeh, ok, the rhino might, and probably will get wrecked eventually. thats cool. anybody who wants to assault me can eat a round of flamer and bolter fire first. At the end of the day, i dont expect anything outstanding from any single unit. i expect them to work together - if somethings shooting my rhinos, theyre not shooting my dreads/speeders/predators. if they want to assault my tacticals, it wont be too long before the termies arrive.

So a dedicated assault unit (or mob of orks for that matter) are going to be put of by one round of rapid fire, and may not even be in range of the flamer before you are assaulted? That is supposed to work? What if your 'other' support units are a tad busy?

 

the thing is, having 2 completely different tactical squads means that it easier to target prioritise against you

So if they are close enough to be able to support mutually with rapid fire, they must be awfully bunched up, bring out the Thunderfire!!

 

and the powerfist isnt a ver big threat - one guardsman, oh no!! one gaunt, oh no! one fire warrior, oh no! it doesnt even make a huge difference against another marine squad -- its only one marine!!! (something i think i could ignore) and they dont make enough of a difference to be worth 25 pts. but hey thats my opinion

One Chaptermaster, oh no!. One Crisis suit, oh no! Finishing off the carnifex that assaulted you after you stopped to rapid fire, oh no! ;)

 

you run assault squads, vanguard squads and scout squads - all units that i dont feel are competitive.

Wow! I had to laugh at this. I came =1st in the last tournament I played using a scout squad and an assault squad. They were very competitive I assure you. I will agree with Vanguard, but hey, I wouldn't dis a guys tactics just because he likes a characterful unit.

 

RoV

[angry man]

i wish that people would stop pidgeon-holing the topic int just about tactical squads. what a competent player would do, would be to consider the army as a whole; if you read my posts correctly you would see that i continuously state that.

 

my tacticals (only 2 squads at 1500 btw, not 3)

Really? So this earlier post doesn't count? :D

on the contrary, i currently run 3 10man tac sqds w/MM/flamer in a rhino.

 

Second time you have been corrected with your own quotes dude, lol.

i dont believe that was in reference to 1500pts. i like how you have selected your quotes because you missed out this one...

1500pts would look something like this:

 

libby; TDA, null zone, avenger - 125pts

 

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

tac sqd; 10marine, MM, fl, rhino - 205

 

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

dread; 2x twin AC - 125

assault termies; 8termies, TH/SS - 320

 

speeder; MM/HF - 70

speeder; MM/HF - 70

 

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

predator; HB sponsons - 85

if youre going to do it, do it properly

 

plan to sit in the mid-field with their MM and their flamer. if something wants to come close thats fine by me. armour heading that way will first eat the melta from the tacts, and then if that isnt suffiecient, i have a few other AV threats kicking around. yeh, ok, the rhino might, and probably will get wrecked eventually. thats cool. anybody who wants to assault me can eat a round of flamer and bolter fire first. At the end of the day, i dont expect anything outstanding from any single unit. i expect them to work together - if somethings shooting my rhinos, theyre not shooting my dreads/speeders/predators. if they want to assault my tacticals, it wont be too long before the termies arrive.

So a dedicated assault unit (or mob of orks for that matter) are going to be put of by one round of rapid fire, and may not even be in range of the flamer before you are assaulted? That is supposed to work? What if your 'other' support units are a tad busy?

how can all my support units be busy? as you can see they are cheap and plentiful. i think that these units would be put off by the rapid fire and flamer more than the fist

 

the thing is, having 2 completely different tactical squads means that it easier to target prioritise against you

So if they are close enough to be able to support mutually with rapid fire, they must be awfully bunched up, bring out the Thunderfire!!

heehee its funny because the chances of a thunderfire lasting turn 1 should be next to nothing, 3+ cover or no

 

and the powerfist isnt a ver big threat - one guardsman, oh no!! one gaunt, oh no! one fire warrior, oh no! it doesnt even make a huge difference against another marine squad -- its only one marine!!! (something i think i could ignore) and they dont make enough of a difference to be worth 25 pts. but hey thats my opinion

One Chaptermaster, oh no!. One Crisis suit, oh no! Finishing off the carnifex that assaulted you after you stopped to rapid fire, oh no! :P

and how many of these can outflank??

 

you run assault squads, vanguard squads and scout squads - all units that i dont feel are competitive.

Wow! I had to laugh at this. I came =1st in the last tournament I played using a scout squad and an assault squad. They were very competitive I assure you. I will agree with Vanguard, but hey, I wouldn't dis a guys tactics just because he likes a characterful unit.

saying you won a tourney means nothing. if you say you won it using scouts and assault marines, it only make me think about questioning how competitive a tourney it was. i didnt dis anyone for running a unit for being characterful - i dissed him because he questioned my competence. all i meant was that in my eyes saying that and then claimng to use one of the least points effective units in the book, also calls for his competence to be called into question

 

also, so kind of you to not post up your fistiful list. or your tourney list. selectiive reading i guess?

 

AM

[Grey Mage]

Except theres nothing uncompetitive about scouts- a scoring unit capable of infiltrating, outflanking, being good in assaults or ranged, fitting in a FMS Transport, getting off first turn assaults, and often at 2/3 the price of a comparably effective tactical squad.

 

Or Assault Marines for that matter. And hell, Ive seen people make vangaurd work... and work darn well.

 

Its all on the playstyle.

 

The last tournament list I took was:

 

Wolf Priest- Runic Armor, PP, WTT- 140s.

 

Dreadnaught- 105pts.

 

10 GHs- 2x PR, PF, Rhino- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, Rhino- 205pts.

12 Bloodclaws- PF- 205pts.

 

LS- MM- 60pts.

 

Landraider- MM- 260pts.

Whirlwind- 85pts.

5 LFs- 2xLC, 2x ML, Razorback (Las/Plas)- 220pts.

 

1500pts.

 

First two times I ran this list, I came in first place. Third time I lost to a capable Chaos Player by a single KP overall, who ran a dual DP 3x Vindicator list with a bunch of 5 man mounted plague marines for troops. We dont do soft scores around here.... to many odd scores came up in the old days.

 

Note: a couple powerfists. Squads designed to take on multiple unit types in any situation I can get them into, and support each other as much as possible. This is how I run a list.

[greatcrusade08]

Except theres nothing uncompetitive about scouts- a scoring unit capable of infiltrating, outflanking, being good in assaults or ranged, fitting in a FMS Transport, getting off first turn assaults, and often at 2/3 the price of a comparably effective tactical squad.

 

Damn straight.. if anyone thinks scouts are useless come to my neck of the woods, im always looking for a new victim to the horde of dirty dirty scouts.

[rat of vengence]

i dont believe that was in reference to 1500pts. i like how you have selected your quotes because you missed out this one...

1500pts would look something like this:

if youre going to do it, do it properly

Oh, I did. Point out where you said that list wasn't 1500 point.

 

how can all my support units be busy? as you can see they are cheap and plentiful. i think that these units would be put off by the rapid fire and flamer more than the fist

If you have to ask, I think my point is made. As for being put off, I wasn't saying they would be. I was challenging your ridiculous asertion that they would be able to avoid combat.

 

heehee its funny because the chances of a thunderfire lasting turn 1 should be next to nothing, 3+ cover or no

So your support units are bored, but the other guys are all dead? How does that work? ;)

 

and how many of these can outflank??

Never said they could. But if a taqc squad is going to be midfield, it had better expect company.

 

saying you won a tourney means nothing. if you say you won it using scouts and assault marines, it only make me think about questioning how competitive a tourney it was.

LOL, wow, our experiences mean nothing, we must bow to your opinion. :)

i didnt dis anyone for running a unit for being characterful - i dissed him because he questioned my competence. all i meant was that in my eyes saying that and then claimng to use one of the least points effective units in the book, also calls for his competence to be called into question

And as you can see I and others have the opinion and experience that you are wrong. Obviously it is okay for differing opinions, buit you seem to have trouble with that concept.

 

also, so kind of you to not post up your fistiful list. or your tourney list. selectiive reading i guess?

Sorry, did I need to? I read it alright, but frankly at the time couldn't be bothered.

 

Librarian

Jump pack, Avenger Machine Curse 125

 

Tac 1

10 man, multimelta, melta, rhino 215

 

Tac 2

10 man, Plasma Cannon, Flamer, Powerfist, Razorback T/L HB 240

 

Scouts

5 man, BP/CCW, Powerfist 100

 

Landspeeder Storm

Heavy Flamer 60

 

Assault squad

6 man, Powerfist 143

 

Vindicator 115

 

That is my 1000 point list. Notice the lack of powerfist for a firepower tac squad, and the powerfist on everyone expected to get up close and personal. It worked just fine, took down Space Wolves, Necrons, Orks, and drew against Orks and Spacewolves.

 

Damn Ghazkull and Njall! ;)

 

RoV

[Koremu]

Sample List;

 

Space Marine Captain, Relic Blade, Bionics-counts-as-Storm Shield, Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers

 

Command Squad, Company Standard, Power Fist, Storm Shield, Melta Bomb * 1

 

Razorback, Extra Armour

 

Tactical Squad, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Flamer, Multi-Melta

 

Rhino

 

Tactical Squad, Power Fist, Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher

 

Rhino, H-K-M

 

Vindicator, Siege Shield, Extra Armour

 

Predator, Heavy Bolter Sponsons (or maybe a Whirlwind)

 

Squadron: 2 * Land Speeder Typhoon

 

Squadron: 2 * MM/HF Land Speeder, 1 * AC/HF

 

 

The above might be out by a few points

 

Tactically it is fairly straightforward. The Vindicator, Command and the non-Fist Tacticals move downfield towards the target objective with the short ranged Land Speeders as outriders. The Remainder of the force concentrates near another Objective. In a two Objective game this is obviously good and straightforward. In a multi-objective game, the Speeders and Command Squad are in the business of making trouble once the Tacticals are in position. The "Home" tactical unit discourages anyone from being too rash near my Predator (and fires supporting Krak missiles in the meantime), while the forward one is in the business of setting up local manpower superiority for and in combination with the Command Squad.

 

The Vindicator usually dies, but almost always draws out the enemy AT sufficiently that the Rhinos, Razorback and Speeders live for long enough.

 

The whole unit would be much weaker without the Fists. The Home tacticals are nowhere near as much of a discouraging presence without the Power Fist. The Command Squad needs the Fist for dealing with the enemy ICs and MCs that are its primary target.

[angry man]

both of those lists prove to me that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread. we clearly have radically different opinions about what is competitive and what constitutes a competitive build. As far as i am concerned, neither of those is it. IMO, and to be clear, its just my opinion, there is lacking synergy - i just see a mish-mash of different units that can be picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy. not having a board full of terain to consider, those lists dont make me think about what order to take things as that, to me, is perfectly clear.

 

it been a lovely discussion/arguement/fight against the odds but i enjoyed it nonetheless

 

AM

[Meatman]

both of those lists prove to me that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread. we clearly have radically different opinions about what is competitive and what constitutes a competitive build. As far as i am concerned, neither of those is it. IMO, and to be clear, its just my opinion, there is lacking synergy - i just see a mish-mash of different units that can be picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy. not having a board full of terain to consider, those lists dont make me think about what order to take things as that, to me, is perfectly clear.

 

it been a lovely discussion/arguement/fight against the odds but i enjoyed it nonetheless

 

AM

 

Makes me wonder why you started the topic then if all you were going to do was ignore our opinions or insult our army lists?

 

So 7 pages of discussion later you still believe you know better? Meh. I do love my fists as they make any squad with them much more of a threat. You said earlier on that its about cramming as many threats down at them as you can, well making tacticals, scouts or assault marines able to take out MC, walkers or ICs in combat significantly easier makes them threats, and more threats is better.