why powerfists?

[Koremu]

Your example assumes the presence of a Melta Gun.

And that's the weapon my tactical squads almost always take (that or a flamer).

 

By all means do things how you wish, I'm just going to keep shooting down your poor reasoning.

And you have not presented anything other than annecodtal evidence. Sample size of one.

 

Tactical Squads are, by definition, all right at dealing with almost anything. Power Fists are a threat to everything in the game. The synergy is obvious.

 

I get very bored of the type of Marine player who has pre-decided that Tacticals are worthless, and so either reserves, rhino camps or hides them for the whole game and is surprised when they do nothing.

 

Tactical Squads make up roughly one-third of a Marine army list, and used well they are worth every single point. A Fist is a very worthwhile addition to a Squad, in many many situations, because of the threat multiplication it represents.

 

If you think Troops choices are worthless, the 'Nid codex is over thataway ~~~>

So because I don't charge Tacticals into combat where odds are they'll gain a minimal return at increased risk, I should play a different army? Come on, man. That's condescending and you know it.

 

What would you know about it? You've already equipped your Tactical Squad to fail at it. You want to talk about size sample, yours is zero.

 

You've pre-decided that you'll fail, I have a wealth of experience says that having Mr Power Fist good and ready works.

 

What your entire argument misses is that there's rarely an isolated example. I could shoot the 'fex or I could assault it, but if I stand and shoot it'll assault anyway.

[Jackelope King]

What would you know about it? You've already equipped your Tactical Squad to fail at it. You want to talk about size sample, yours is zero.

 

You've pre-decided that you'll fail, I have a wealth of experience says that having Mr Power Fist good and ready works.

I'm glad it does work for you. For me, the odds aren't good enough and the payoff isn't good enough. At all. I can't justify spending 25 points that could go towards upping my Dreadnought to a Rifleman.

 

And seriously, do you think I never used a Power Fist? I used them on every tactical squad up until about a year ago. And I can certainly tell you the times I cheered when the sergeant took down a Carnifex. But I've learned since then that those points are better spent elsewhere. Maybe eeking out another 1.5 wounds once per game if things fall that way, or definitely piling on S7 hits from turn 1? Or upgrading my speeder to have a heavy flamer and a multimelta? Or having the points to make sure that everyone's got a ride? There are just more important things than giving a power fist to a tactical sergeant.

 

What your entire argument misses is that there's rarely an isolated example. I could shoot the 'fex or I could assault it, but if I stand and shoot it'll assault anyway.

And that's very true. Which is why you were very correct that you do indeed have to consider the entire army when deciding what benefit a power fist has. By itself, the value is questionable. Are there situations where it'd benefit? Absolutely, no questions asked. I have indeed muttered about wishing I had a power fist "just this one time" plenty of times, because situations do crop up where they'd be useful. But every game I give my Rifleman Dreadnought a pat on the... coffin-head-thingie?... for performing.

[Xeonic]

I might be inclined to agree with shooting vs a powerfist, except where you get charged by some nasty character and need to ID him. Tigerius and co jump from their raider, you get no shots, you have no fist, they chew you up and wipe you out.

With fist, if the sergeant survives(a long shot, but it's happened), he can instadeath Tigerius pretty easy, removing a major threat from the opposing army at basically one tactical squad's cost. Even with someone like Vulkan, or a SS/relic master, you have a chance to instadeath him that you just don't have shooting.

 

Also assuming that Tyranid MCs will go charging up the table in the open is kinda silly, several of them can deepstrike or are quite good at range themselves. Something like a winged DP or tyrant will just move up and assault giving you no chances to shoot, as will most marine characters and their retinues. The situations where you're forced to chose between firing at a standstill and charging are a little limited, and a lot of time will involve nasty things like hordes, which your melta/multi-melta wouldn't be very effective against anyways.

 

A lot of the discussion is also that a fistless squad with combat tactics will be superior because they can spend more time shooting as opposed to CC, but a lot of marine armies exchange that for something else(stubborn!) where you really, really don't want to be locked in combat with something you can't hurt.

 

I already said this, but for me fists are great, and most games they get used a time or three. I won't cripple my army just to give every sarge a fist, though all my agressively kitted(melta or flamer!) squads get them as a matter of course.

I normally wouldn't give a 5 man squad a fist, if just because it's unlikely to ever swing. There are exceptions like CC command squads or purely tank busting combat squads(melta, 3 bodies, sarge with fist).

 

There will be occasions where you get assaulted and you can't control that. A fist gives you a good deal more punch(pun intended) than otherwise. Therefore I would say that they are very useful upgrades, but not ones that get used in 100% of situations.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

good stuff guys all of you.

 

One thing I just thought of, lets say a tac squad does get assaulted ok? ok, so you get to swing with the fist great it killed something. But I know i'm not going to last long in CC anyway so I use combat tactics fallback and regroup, blast 'em! So really both strategys merged together are the most effective

 

I believe the correct answer to this question lies somewhere in between a mere YES POWERFISTS! or NO THERE A WASTE!

[Sparhawk]

The answer is obviously all about synergizing your army. If you field an army that is Tac squad heavy at the expense of some of the other FOC choices then you have to kit them out appropriately.

 

I personally don't believe that there is a "correct" or even "optimal" way of building a squad, instead I'd say think about what it is that the squad is supposed to do and build them accordingly. Every unit in your army should have a purpose and they should be built to take advantage of that purpose, whether it's drive-bys in a rhino, a counter-assault unit, or what have you.

[Grey Mage]

The answer is obviously all about synergizing your army.

Synergy is for people who have tactics. Pshaw.

[Sparhawk]

The answer is obviously all about synergizing your army.

Synergy is for people who have tactics. Pshaw.

 

And people with jobs in a Corporate office ;) .

 

As always ask yourself what else you could get with those same points and then make the fun triage decisions about what stays and what goes. This is a game of trade-offs and everything you give one unit is something you can't give another. I don't have my codex here so I'm not sure of all the other ways to spend 25pts although I always felt that at least 1 powerweapon in a squad is generally a boon, especially when facing MEQs where denying an armor save can mean the difference between winning combat and a wiffle-bat fight.

[Sparhawk]

This may even pose the eternal question of who would win in a fight a Carnifex or a SM Captain?

 

What if that Captain were named Captain Ditka?

[angry man]

I get very bored of the type of Marine player who has pre-decided that Tacticals are worthless, and so either reserves, rhino camps or hides them for the whole game and is surprised when they do nothing.

 

Tactical Squads make up roughly one-third of a Marine army list, and used well they are worth every single point. A Fist is a very worthwhile addition to a Squad, in many many situations, because of the threat multiplication it represents.

 

If you think Troops choices are worthless, the 'Nid codex is over thataway ~~~>

nobody said even once (i dont think) that tacticals are worthless. i get very bored of people who make statements up to suit their arguement. i would argue that it is you who undervalues your tacticals if you are willing to throw them into a dread. rhino camping does not mean they do nothing. equipped appropriately (MM/fl) and backed up properly, they can control the middle of the field - want to run your dread through MM fire? be my guesti dont think youll be making combat any time soon.

 

at the end of the day, i think that 25pts per tact squad represents a better threat multiplication then a powerfist per tactical squad.

 

if you think that the basic troops of an army are the best thing your list has to offer, the guard codex is over there too ~~~>

 

What would you know about it? You've already equipped your Tactical Squad to fail at it. You want to talk about size sample, yours is zero.

 

You've pre-decided that you'll fail, I have a wealth of experience says that having Mr Power Fist good and ready works.

 

What your entire argument misses is that there's rarely an isolated example. I could shoot the 'fex or I could assault it, but if I stand and shoot it'll assault anyway.

this thread appears to be slowly being dragged into a girly bitch fight

 

we havent decided that we'll fail. we have simply decided that charging a dread with 2 fist attacks a turn, vs. the dreads 2 attacks a turn is not an effective way to do things. its just going to end up with a handful of marines getting beat down and the dread slowly being worn out. what we suggest is that you asve the 25pts per fist and spend them elsewhere. use these points and add a few more and get something that can take the dread out earlier - saves the marines from getting mushed in cc.

 

you can attempt to shoot down all the arguements you like, youre not too convincing as far as im concerned- you dont seem to be considering any of the other parts of your army - if theres a dread or an MC, you could, and should have a more effective way of dealing with it

 

AM

[Koremu]

*I* don't seem to be considering other parts of my army? Here's a post of mine from the last page, which I was rather intending people to read;

 

No, generally I find that you can throw Tactical Marines into pretty much any circumstances, provide them with appropriate support, and they'll do a decent enough job.

 

The fist expands their range of targets, and I like that enough that I almost always take a Fist for at least one Tactical Squad. Usually the Tactical Squad that's intended to be working without support from any other units that are armed with a Fist. So if I'm expecting my Tactical Squad to Objective Hold and provide Infantry Support/Security for a Fire Support Position (say a Dread or a Whirlwind), the Fist is a potent tool because it offers the Tactical Squad and by extension the greater unit to which it belongs a much broader operational profile.

 

On the other hand, I rarely give a Power Fist to the Tactical Squad I intend to follow my heavy-hitter unit with. If they are operating with a unit such as Vanguard, a Captain and Command Squad or an Assault Squad, there's already enough Fist-based death about not to have to add to it. I add Combi weapons instead.

 

In each case here the Tactical Squads are armed to appropriately support the units they are operating with. The Power Fist is not a "hail mary" item - it's a calculated addition to the abilities of the Squad and the greater army to achieve a purpose.

 

 

So I'm sure you can see why I feel that you are utterly misplaying your Tactical Squads.

 

Essentially, I completely disagree with your suposition that Tactical Squads aren't threatening, or that Power Fists aren't worth taking.

 

Tactical Squads are excellent multi-application sweep and clean units which free up your more specialised units for more worthwhile endeavours than finishing off a wounded Carnifex, damaged vehicle or lurking shattered units. The Power Fist adds an entire array of targets onto what it can viably deal with and is well worth those 25 points for Squads which you intend to put into appropriate positions anyway.

 

Tactical Squads are completely and entirely capable on the field of battle, and I am sick of hearing people whine about how weak they perceive them to be just because the Tactical Squad doesn't come with a simple, easy to use and obvious method of play.

 

To get the best out of Tactical Squads requires quick thinking and adaptation.

[Jackelope King]

*I* don't seem to be considering other parts of my army? Here's a post of mine from the last page, which I was rather intending people to read;

Um... dude? I never said that. This is what I said.

And that's very true. Which is why you were very correct that you do indeed have to consider the entire army when deciding what benefit a power fist has. By itself, the value is questionable. Are there situations where it'd benefit? Absolutely, no questions asked. I have indeed muttered about wishing I had a power fist "just this one time" plenty of times, because situations do crop up where they'd be useful. But every game I give my Rifleman Dreadnought a pat on the... coffin-head-thingie?... for performing.

 

So I'm sure you can see why I feel that you are utterly misplaying your Tactical Squads.

 

Essentially, I completely disagree with your suposition that Tactical Squads aren't threatening, or that Power Fists aren't worth taking.

Incorrect. I said that Tacticals aren't threatening in close combat, except in very specific circumstances. In some of those circumstances (such as against weaker enemies in melee), a fist isn't necessary. In others (against a Dread or MC), it is usually more beneficial to shoot than to engage in melee. Power fists in tactical squads are thus too situational and not a choice I'd make for an all-comers list.

 

Tactical Squads are excellent multi-application sweep and clean units which free up your more specialised units for more worthwhile endeavours than finishing off a wounded Carnifex, damaged vehicle or lurking shattered units. The Power Fist adds an entire array of targets onto what it can viably deal with and is well worth those 25 points for Squads which you intend to put into appropriate positions anyway.

I don't think it is. In all of those situations, shooting is either as good as or better than close combat, or the power fist simply only adds a small advantage. In either case, 25 points is a lot to pay for those situational scenarios. And that's where I'm skeptical about using power fists in tactical squads.

 

Tactical Squads are completely and entirely capable on the field of battle, and I am sick of hearing people whine about how weak they perceive them to be just because the Tactical Squad doesn't come with a simple, easy to use and obvious method of play.

 

To get the best out of Tactical Squads requires quick thinking and adaptation.

I agree. And I also think that the best way to make use of your tactical squad is a close-range fire-support, sweeping up wounded enemy units that your kill-happy units have gotten ready for you, and then go grab an objective. A power fist is just too situational for that role, especially for the cost. I can get more out of those 25 points elsewhere.

[Koremu]

Your anti-Dread and MC short range fire requires that you have a melta gun.

 

And I don't see how you plan on being able to sweep up damaged Dreads without a Fist.

 

The 3 attack fist is much more reliable than a single shot melta.

 

And a Power Fist isn't really 25 points either. It's maybe 10 over and above the cost of whatever else you would be giving to the Sergeant.

[angry man]

So I'm sure you can see why I feel that you are utterly misplaying your Tactical Squads.

no, not really

 

Essentially, I completely disagree with your suposition that Tactical Squads aren't threatening, or that Power Fists aren't worth taking.

nobody in the entirety of this thread has said that Tactical Squads aren't threatening. you made that up

 

Tactical Squads are excellent multi-application sweep and clean units which free up your more specialised units for more worthwhile endeavours than finishing off a wounded Carnifex, damaged vehicle or lurking shattered units. The Power Fist adds an entire array of targets onto what it can viably deal with and is well worth those 25 points for Squads which you intend to put into appropriate positions anyway.

space marines arent really known for their specialist units; if you want them, go play eldar. the key to marines is duality and redundancy, so most units in my list are capable of dealing with multiple unit types. this means that i can afford to spend an extra units firepower downing the wounded fex/damaged vehicle

 

Tactical Squads are completely and entirely capable on the field of battle, and I am sick of hearing people whine about how weak they perceive them to be just because the Tactical Squad doesn't come with a simple, easy to use and obvious method of play.

 

To get the best out of Tactical Squads requires quick thinking and adaptation.

see above ^. nobody said they were weak. i said they have a weakness, and i still believe this to be true. one would be naive to think otherwise. and i do belive i already said how i get the best out of them, no?

nobody said even once (i dont think) that tacticals are worthless. i get very bored of people who make statements up to suit their arguement. i would argue that it is you who undervalues your tacticals if you are willing to throw them into a dread. rhino camping does not mean they do nothing. equipped appropriately (MM/fl) and backed up properly, they can control the middle of the field - want to run your dread through MM fire? be my guesti dont think youll be making combat any time soon.

 

And I don't see how you plan on being able to sweep up damaged Dreads without a Fist.

with the other things that are included in the list as a whole :) im sure ive mentioned this once or twice before...

 

The 3 attack fist is much more reliable than a single shot melta.

is it really?? if we were to run the numbers (i wont because i really cant be bothered, feel free to do so yourself tho :D) i think we would find that "much more reliable" becomes 'slightly more reliable, or even, 'less reliable'

 

And a Power Fist isn't really 25 points either. It's maybe 10 over and above the cost of whatever else you would be giving to the Sergeant.

and if i dont equip my sgt with anything??? how much does the fist cost then??

 

AM

[Koremu]

If you don't equip the Sepgeant with anything, then you are even further missing the point of Tactical Squads, IMO.

 

But I knew that already.

[angry man]

If you don't equip the Sepgeant with anything, then you are even further missing the point of Tactical Squads, IMO.

 

But I knew that already.

if you say so. shall we look at the options for tac sgts;

chainsword - replaces the all important bolter for an extra attack in cc - tacts dont excell in cc as is, 1 attack wont make a difference

combi weapon - probably the best available upgrade, however it can only be used once and i can only fire 2 weapons out of the hatch of my rhino. not sure its worth the points in enough games to make it into an all comers list

storm bolter - really not worth paying points for 1 more bolter round ad 13-24" IMO

plasma pistol - come on, does anybody really take these any more??

power weapon - i think id sooner take the fist

the much debated fist - need i really comment??

 

so it would seem that none of these optios really add a huge amout to the tactical squad. the closest we come is with the combi weapon, which i dont feel is essential

 

if you take any combination of these upgrades, your sgt is fast approaching the points cost of a terminator.i wonder what i would sooner have in my list

 

taking upgrades may also lead to you overstretching your tactical squads, thowing them down the throat of things that can best them (i for one would be happy if my damaged dread/wounded fex took out a handful of marines before it fell to a fist).you can throw insults at me all day, it doesnt bother me and im not sure it endears you to anyone else.

 

what would be interesting is if you would be so kind as to post up your current list. i would be intruiged(sp?) to see what how your tactical squads fit in with the rest of your army

 

AM

[Koremu]

It's funny. Apart from the Chainsword, I have recently used and had great success with all of the Tactical Sergeant upgrades. Plasma Pistol + Power Sword is especially useful - what's not to like about a combination of 4 armour-ignoring attacks in a melee and an AP2 shot on the charge?

 

It straight out looks to me that you are gimping your Tacticals by under equipping them.

[Sparhawk]

I really think the best way to handle this discussion is not to turn it into a series of personal attacks or, my personal favorite thing about forums, picking apart people's posts by using quotes and rebutting. I think this is a really good tactical discussion but we may be getting a little off topic. I don't know that we've discussed the merits of the fist vs other options since like the first pages...

 

I personally like to use a pfist in the combat squad I send out as forward support, although I am starting to phase out the fist in favor of the seemingly much maligned melta bombs and then using the other points for the multi-meltas on my LRs.

[Brother Mojonir]

Sparhawk funny you should say that I was just considering the same thing in the C:SM Army List Review forum, in regards to PFs on forward combat squads or spending the points on LR MMs and in my case a couple of HKM missiles for said raiders. I think I will go ahead and do it. No points for melta bombs however, if the boys get in a pinch they can just leg it ;)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I have recently used and had great success with all of the Tactical Sergeant upgrades. Plasma Pistol + Power Sword is especially useful - what's not to like about a combination of 4 armour-ignoring attacks in a melee and an AP2 shot on the charge?

aye, I run a power sword + plas pistol sergeant on my all melta tac squad, works great.

[Xeonic]

It's funny you mention how bad the chainsword upgrade is but it makes the sergeant 2-3 times as efficient in CC as a bolter marine, and since you hide in your rhino bunker all the time anyways, all you lose is one bolt shot in disembark rapidfires. The sergeant's strength is already in CC, at range he's no better than a tactical marine.

 

Still, the only time I'd ever take a chainsword only sgt. is vs orks or something without a significant armor save or high T. Anyways, in the case of orks, I'd rather just take a combi flamer and call it a day.

 

My views on the other upgrades:

Power weapon: great in conjunction with a pistol espescially vs low T targets with fair to good armor saves. Vs a 4+ save, a power weapon will result is *suprise!* 50% more wounds inflicted than otherwise. Moar wounds is good.

 

Plasma pistol: okay, good for getting the extra attack with a power weapon and adding a second on the move low AP high strength shot to a rapidfiring squad with a plasma gun. Also great in a melta squad for giving another high strength shot vs armor. I'd only ever use this with a power weapon, if I was just wanting the plasma shot I'd take a combi for the doubled burst of firepower. I could see taking this on a melta squad, dual wielded along with a bolt pistol(which is also a second CCW!) and meltabombs for the anti vehicle assault threat.

 

Storm bolter: good if you're a static unit like a dev squad, or sitting stationary firing a heavy weapon(lascannon or plasma cannon or something), it's extra shots and it doesn't cost a mint in points. On a static squad the extra few shots can add up during the course of the game, but it's never going to be a game winner.

 

Combi-bolter: Melta is great, it's a second shot for busting those AV14 monsters, flamer is also great in it's element, gives a melta squad a crowd control aspect for duality in purpose, and gives a flamer squad twice the templates. Both of the assault combis IMO go great with a powerfist. The only combi I've used with really mixed success is the plasma, on the one hand it's a great way to add a pair of high strength AP2 shots to a plasma cannon/plasma gun squad, but on the other hand you could then blow your sergeant up(I have a pair of combi-plas sergeants that I run with no other upgrades due to this). With all combis you pay the price for their versatility, and the price is equal or more than the same weapon in the hands of a normal marine. In a rhino any combi can be fired from the hatch along with a special weapon if you were moving, and a second blast of plasma, melta, or flame is almost certainly better than a bolter. It would be interesting to field sergeants with two combi weapons, but not peticularly points efficient since you'd be paying the same amount of points for another shot that you have to fire seperately. You could however, mix and match for maximum versatility. I'm not reccomending it, I haven't tried it, but it's a concept that interests me. Combi+ storm bolter is also an interesting combination, and would make for some nifty modeling options.

 

Fist: Good vs anything in CC, while it doesn't make your tacticals into assault marines it can help to make them reap a toll in close combat. In addition it's really quite reasonable vs most vehicles, MCs, ICs, and walkers. In other words it makes your tactical squad capable of handling almost any eventuality. All it costs is points, and the cost is steep. Still, you're already paying for a ten man squad and a transport, so why not a small fraction of that to make them not fold like a house of cards in CC. Tacticals are -not- ranged specialists, they're ranged oriented combat generalists able to do pretty well in close to midrange combat, and they can dabble at longrange. I like the fist because it reinforces the jack of all trades role that I push my tact squads to do. If you just want to ignore armor in CC, use a power weapon and bolt pistol, and if you just want to kill non walker vehicles, take meltabombs, but nothing beats a fist overall in CC except maybe a relic blade(that lacks power vs high armor values). I don't think the powerfist is the must have it used to be, but I do think it's one of the most cost efficient upgrades you can give your tactical sergeants, espescially in agressively kitted melta or flamer squads.

 

Meltabombs: noteworthy mention because it really makes a squad good vs vehicles in CC, this cheap upgrade can be a must for a melta armed antitank squad you're not putting a fist on.

 

Anyways, just my 2¢ on the other upgrades that compete for space on my sergeants. I think it's about playstyle a lot, and I've got many sergeant models that I've played with kitted with most of these and they all seem to have their element, perhaps even the humble chainsword, but none of them give the tactical squad as much benefit vs such a wide variety of targets as the powerfist. For my money, I say the powerfist is the best upgrade you can give a squad that's already got to be in assault range to be effective, and since the most focused weapons you'll find on a tactical squad are the melta and flamer, and both are at maximum effectiveness in assault range already, I'll keep using powerfists on those types of squads just for the occasions where it's down to charge or be charged(my answer is charge, always).

Is the fist the answer to all problems? No, but it does give them an option vs targets they have a limited effectiveness against otherwise.

[Grey Mage]

The thing about spending some extra points for your Tacticals, Crusaders, or Grey Hunters to upgrade them properly is that it should enhance what they do, and/or extend the options of what can be done.

 

Powerfists do both- our units will end up in combat. Tacticals will end up in combat with things that are difficult to hurt. virtually nothing in the game has T2, but many have t3-8. If you kill one wraithgaurd with a powerfist, youve made its points back.

 

Powerweapons just enhance what they do already- you dont wound any better, you just remove the "save" step from your enemies side of the balance sheet. You still cant wound T8, you you still wound T6 on a 6+, and against orcs etc you removed a 16% chance of having your wounds ignored.

 

etc etc etc. There is some advantage to each of these options, but two of them stand out overall to me- the Powerfist and the Plasma Pistol.

 

Why? Because the PF allows one to harm T 8, scartch AV 14, and quite simply gives you a chance against the worst that this game can throw at you. I feel that if you dont prepare for the worst, your leaving yourself open.

 

Plasma Pistols are a good value in my opino simply because of their versatility- a Str 7 AP 2 shot has a myriad of uses- from popping terminators to taking a wound of that giant gribbly thats after you to giving you another chance to pop that transport youd like to assault if your meltagun fails the job....

 

The more 5th ed Codices that come out the less I feel one can afford to run naked tactical squads- there are simply to many things out there that need more than a flamer+ML to be threatened, and to many variable army builds where the strength of unit and seargent upgrades shines.

[Bartali]

The thing people always forget with Tactical squads is their bolters, any plan that doesn't involve getting a 10 man squad to fire said bolters at infantry is a waste of points. I grown inwardly whenever I see an army list where the poster is planning to sit back on an abjective and spending 200-ish pts for a ML shot, rush them forward for a Meltagun shot or try to get the fist into combat with a Dread or an MC.

 

That you can make a Tactical Squad the swiss army knife of 40k doesn't mean you should. It just costs far too much for something that will get situational usage.

[Grey Mage]

Im calling BS on that- Marines arent eldar, they have few, if any, units that are not designed with multiple combat roles in mind- assault marines, whirlwinds, vindicators.... and TH+SS Termies. And whirlwinds are more flexable than they first appear.

 

Everything else in the standard marine book is designed to able to be used in several situations as the need arises- A tactical Squad with a ML, PF, Rhino, and Meltagun/Plasmagun is an all around threat thats perfectly capable of shooting down infantry, enemy tanks, tarpit assaulting units and finish off what theyve shot at.

 

I say your paying far to much for the capabilities of a squad that can do a bit of everything to not make sure that when it tries to, it is actually effective at doing that job. Because in the end if what you did was tactically correct to win you the game, then you made the right decision- situational or no.

 

If you want to pay 220pts for 10-20 Bolter shots I think your seriously overpricing a tac squad+ rhino.

[greatcrusade08]

agreed, you dont know how a game is going to play out until the minis and dice hit the table.. you may turn up expecting to play a chaos army and find your opponent has brought guard..

 

sometimes your tac squad will have to deal with hordes, other times dreadnoughts.. you cant choose your opponents minis so you have to bolster your options.. be more flexible

[Bartali]

agreed, you dont know how a game is going to play out until the minis and dice hit the table.. you may turn up expecting to play a chaos army and find your opponent has brought guard..

 

sometimes your tac squad will have to deal with hordes, other times dreadnoughts.. you cant choose your opponents minis so you have to bolster your options.. be more flexible

 

Oh, I'm all about generalising in a list, just that a 10 man Tac Squad is poor place to do it. Lascannon Razorbacks with five man squads with a Flamer, Heavy Bolter ones with a Meltagun, Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Speeders, Tactical Terminators, Dakka Preds all have dual roles in a list and do their jobs better than the swiss army knife 10 man squad.