why powerfists?

[greatcrusade08]

Makes me wonder why you started the topic then if all you were going to do was ignore our opinions or insult our army lists?

 

So 7 pages of discussion later you still believe you know better? Meh. I do love my fists as they make any squad with them much more of a threat. You said earlier on that its about cramming as many threats down at them as you can, well making tacticals, scouts or assault marines able to take out MC, walkers or ICs in combat significantly easier makes them threats, and more threats is better.

 

Meatman for prime minister

[Grey Mage]

*shakes head*

 

If you walk up to a guy and say "why do you eat pickles?"

 

And he responds:

"I like the taste, theyre fairly healthy for you, and the crisp crunch as you savor them is most excellant really"

 

And you in turn respond:

"But they dont taste good, and theyre not as healthy for you as granola, and why would you want to savor them anyways?"

 

Did you really want an answer, or were you just looking to have your own opinion on pickles reaffirmed?

 

In any case, I think weve covered the topic fairly thuroughly as to reasons why one would take a powerfist. Maybe someday youll agree with us.... apparently at the moment your metagame just doesnt work with them... or maybe your still figuring things out, you said you still needed to get your proxies turned into standards.

[Koremu]

both of those lists prove to me that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread. we clearly have radically different opinions about what is competitive and what constitutes a competitive build. As far as i am concerned, neither of those is it. IMO, and to be clear, its just my opinion, there is lacking synergy - i just see a mish-mash of different units that can be picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy. not having a board full of terain to consider, those lists dont make me think about what order to take things as that, to me, is perfectly clear.

 

it been a lovely discussion/arguement/fight against the odds but i enjoyed it nonetheless

 

AM

I built that list for redundancy. There's 5 potential (and radically different) anti-Infantry units, 3 AT units, and 3 potential response units to enemy elites. The whole is manoeverable, flexible and I purchased them with specific unit synergy for the two section groups.

 

I'd love to stomp you into the floor as demonstration.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Heres my 1kpts competitive. its whats gotten me to 10-3 along with my godly 2k pts one

 

998/1000pts

 

** HQ **

Captain 118pts

-Lightning claw

-Storm bolter

 

 

** Troops **

(10)Tactical Squad Alpha 250pts

-Sergeant w/Powerfist

-Lascannon, Plasma gun

-Rhino

(10)Tactical Squad Beta 250pts

-Sergeant w/Powerfist

-Lascannon, Plasma gun

-Rhino

 

 

** Heavy Support **

Devastator Squad 140pts

-x2 Plasma Cannons

Predator 120pts

-Autocannon

-Side sponson Lascannons

Predator 120pts

-Autocannon

-Side sponson Lascannons

 

powerfists all around!

[Top Secret]

Looks like we have two schools of thought here:

 

1. Keep Tacs cheap and hope they do not get stuck in with an IC, MC, or Walker.

 

ie: Tactical Squad F/MM + Rhino = 205 Pts

 

Personally, I love over-kitted Tactical Squads because I can hurt anything, in any situation. My favorite build:

 

Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Powerfist, Combi-Flamer + Rhino = 250!!!

 

Roughly a 22% increase in cost! But is there a 22% increase in damage output? I think so. This squad can just about deal with anything.

 

*Edit*

 

Also, I think a fist is REQUIRED on squads such as Sternguard. You absolutely do not want your special ammo squad wasting turns in CC, and so the point of the fist is purely a deterrent.

[rat of vengence]

both of those lists prove to me that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread. we clearly have radically different opinions about what is competitive and what constitutes a competitive build. As far as i am concerned, neither of those is it. IMO, and to be clear, its just my opinion, there is lacking synergy - i just see a mish-mash of different units that can be picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy. not having a board full of terain to consider, those lists dont make me think about what order to take things as that, to me, is perfectly clear.

 

it been a lovely discussion/arguement/fight against the odds but i enjoyed it nonetheless

 

AM

:D

 

My list has been successful at that point level for 6 months. If you see a mish mash, that suits me; leaves you no clear target prority as you don't know how I am going to use it. I must admit I laughed (again) when I read this

picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy.

coming from the man who doesn't want powerfists in tactical squads. My list has 3 fists, a psychic power and 2 melta weapons against armour. It has a flamer, heavy flamer, Avenger and rapid fire against hordes. It has a Vindicator for anything. And the way it is used is successful. You can Theoryhammer all you like, lists do not win games.

 

I don't mind you disagreeing with our views and opinions. We all have our own. But you come here asking a question, and then spend all this time trying to convince us that our responses are wrong, that our experiences don't count, and that our successful army lists are 'lacking synergy'. I think you need to go away and have a bit of a think about it. :lol:

 

 

RoV

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

I usually list up with:

 

2 Squads no Shiney CCW, or a Power Weapon: 1 Squad with Power Fist ratio. It works quite well

When combined with transports, assault units, artillery, ect.

 

See, not picking a side.

 

But then, I play games for giggles, not victory. Last week I charged my Chaos Lord and twenty beserkers at an Avatar on turn 2. We lost the Lord and seventeen Beserkers, but we looked awesome doing it. So, if you ask me, your arguements just became irrelivent. Suicide beats power fists along with everything else!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahaha!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

:pinch:

[Jackelope King]

My list has been successful at that point level for 6 months. If you see a mish mash, that suits me; leaves you no clear target prority as you don't know how I am going to use it.

That's a whole 'nother thread, my friend.

[Voltaire]

Indeed. I merely participated to share my thoughts and opinion, as well as to point out obvious flaws in argument...

Such as comparing vanilla marines with special marines.

But that's beside the point. What I'm trying to get at is this; the topic should merely be for polite debate. Not immature and incessant flaming.

 

Sadly due to such spamming the topic will soon die.

 

*shrugs*

 

Oh well. I've had my say and am impressed by several counter-arguments.

 

Good tidings.

[Captain Idaho]

@ angry man: Well you can come to Nottingham for the Ultras Meet number 4 (it is open invite everyone, don't let the name fool you!). I would be interested seeing how you use your list and showing you how I use mine. Maybe we can learn something off each other?

 

Check the link:

 

Link

[Blood Scorpion]

Hey all, been reading with some amusement the "discussion" on this thread over the past few days and thought I'd share my experience of playing against a semi competitive Marine list last week with my latest army project - Tau.

 

Cutting a long story short I lost, I had about 400pts remaining but no Troops and he had one model that captured one of the four Objectives from under my nose to hand him the win 1-0. Needless to say the one remaining model he had left was a Power Fist weilding Tactical Sergeant who had single handedly taken out my Broadsides, Commander and Fire Warriors that were guarding the Objective in the final 2 Turns!

 

Granted he passed about 7 Armour Saves in a row and had the dice gods on his side in those two Turns for his Sergeant to survive, but that's not the point. The point is that without the Power Fist he would not have been able to Instant Kill the Broadsides (who were denied their 2+ Armour Save and 2 Wounds each), the Commander (who had all 4 Wounds remaining) and Sweeping Advance the Fire Warriors (who rolled an 8 for their Morale Test but because the Fist had managed to kill two of them they failed and were cut down) allowing him to consolidate onto the Objective at the end.

 

Now, this is only one example and he could have easily failed the first save he was asked to make before the Fist even got to swing, but I think it highlights the great potential of a Power Fist Tactical Sergeant and how much more of a threat it makes that one model and therefore the unit.

 

As some of you may have seen from when I was building up my Marine army last year I run with two Taticals in Rhinos and give both of them a Power Fist. To be fair in probably half the games I've played with them they have been a waste of points and I can see where those against are coming from, but in the other half they have been instrumental in my success and I intend on continuing to take them. I don't believe that there is a better option for the 50pts given the synergy of my list.

 

Anyway Angry Man, since we are both in sunny Manchester wanna get together to share experiences and to give your list a friendly run out against my Blood Scorpion Marines (or any of my other armies). Would be interesting to see how I would deal with all the Dakka your list puts out plus the TH/SS Termies. PM me if you're up for it.

 

Gutted I can't make Ultra Meet 4 - I'm at Conflict Scotland the weekend before and will be in London on the 26th for the week so a trip to Nottingham too will not be received well by the Mrs! Shame, would have been good to meet some of you.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Last week I charged my Chaos Lord and twenty beserkers at an Avatar on turn 2. We lost the Lord and seventeen Beserkers, but we looked awesome doing it. Suicide beats power fists along with everything else!

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahaha!!!!!!!!!!

Spoken like a true devotee of Khorne, also very fluffy! hats off I wish more players played to their armys MO

[Warprat]

both of those lists prove to me that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread. we clearly have radically different opinions about what is competitive and what constitutes a competitive build. As far as i am concerned, neither of those is it. IMO, and to be clear, its just my opinion, there is lacking synergy - i just see a mish-mash of different units that can be picked apart due to lack of duality and redundancy. not having a board full of terain to consider, those lists dont make me think about what order to take things as that, to me, is perfectly clear.

 

it been a lovely discussion/arguement/fight against the odds but i enjoyed it nonetheless

 

AM

 

Wimpy way to go... prove your point man! Frankly, I am leaning your way. While enjoying the banter back and forth immensely. Thanks for everyone posting thier lists, including angry man, (who posted first btw.)

 

 

A question for Powerfist haters... Do you think any of the upgrades for Tactical squads are worth it, beyond Rhinos?

 

For Powerfist lovers... Why don't all your Tactical squads recieve powerfists? I can see by your lists that generally plasma squads do, while melta squads do not.

 

 

 

Is there a middle ground to be had here? Or is it less about powerfists, and more about upgrades in general?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

for my multi melta/meltagun squad i take the power weapon and plas pistol to deal with infantry as there most likely to be on the front lines trying to melta something.

for my las/plas squads i take the fist incase something drop pods or deepstrikes them, and to discourage assaults. these squads are the do it all swiss army knife of my army, as they should be.

[rat of vengence]

For Powerfist lovers... Why don't all your Tactical squads recieve powerfists? I can see by your lists that generally plasma squads do, while melta squads do not.

 

 

 

Is there a middle ground to be had here? Or is it less about powerfists, and more about upgrades in general?

Good questions mate. I only put a fist in squads that I think are highly likely to need them, so anything toting a flamer is going to be in combat. My melta/multimelta squad is really there to deny an area to transports, tanks and walkers, while being rather good at taking wounds off monstrous creatures. I can usually keep them clear of combat, and have my other units nearby to help them stay clear and firing.

Middlegound is what I advocate. Powerfists on every tac squad are an extravagance, but no powerfists is missing a golden opportunity and not playing to your strengths; adaptability. I put them where needed, and no more.

As for other upgrades, a rhino is good, noone disputes that, unless they prefer a razorback! I like my squads to be mobile, this protects them til I need that rapid fire, allows me to redeploy, and gives me a tank that can tankshock or ram, depending on the situation and how desperate I am :cuss

 

RoV

[Grey Mage]

for my multi melta/meltagun squad i take the power weapon and plas pistol to deal with infantry as there most likely to be on the front lines trying to melta something.

for my las/plas squads i take the fist incase something drop pods or deepstrikes them, and to discourage assaults. these squads are the do it all swiss army knife of my army, as they should be.

Because I use my MG squads more agressively and create mylist to be as interdependant as it is independant- in short, my Plasma Hunter packs are going to be covering my MG Packs, and will counter charge units that charge them...or vice versa as needed.

 

I like to run my army in wings, often of three units, with 2/3 units having the ability to take on MCs and ICs in CC, 2/3 having the ability to take on high AVs, etc.

[Koremu]

For Powerfist lovers... Why don't all your Tactical squads recieve powerfists? I can see by your lists that generally plasma squads do, while melta squads do not.

 

 

 

Is there a middle ground to be had here? Or is it less about powerfists, and more about upgrades in general?

 

I'm certainly an advocate of buying several upgrades for my Tactical Squads. I often straight cost my Tactical Squads as having 250 points allocated to their purchase - which has to include their transport as well.

 

Fist with Plasma Gun is a good combination for a unit you intend on using as a lone Infantry unit in support of Armour assets. The Plasma Gun has the greatest synergy with the Heavy Weapon for the purposes of Rhino bunkering, while the Fist gives you ability that you just do not have otherwise, and as such is a threat that can deal with things that make it past the Predator/Whirlwind fire that the Tactical Squad is acting as protector for.

 

Meltagun + Combi-Melta + Fist (+ Heavy Bolter) is anther preferred squad setup that I use, in this case when the Squad is intended as a forward operations unit that doesn't have the close support of an IC and bodyguard unit.

 

It's all about how I intend to deploy and use the unit on the table, and what I intend to use it with.

 

I do almost always have at least one Power Fist Tactical Squad in an army, for Dawn of War deployment if nowt else.

[DeffWolf]

lol this is hilarious. why have you got a problem with what angryman is saying? this is a debate open to opinion is it not? therefore you can discuss your opinions...and disagree with others!

 

personally i think angryman has a point, partly because if i never get assaulted there are loads of points wasted on several pointless powerfists. anyway - marines have such a good ballistic skill for troops why not nerf them out with guns? more reliable too.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

yes, theres a lot of truth to angry mans arguments even though I do use powerfists I can understand what hes trying to tell us and agree with most of it. in games below 1000pts i never take fists

[Grey Mage]

lol this is hilarious. why have you got a problem with what angryman is saying? this is a debate open to opinion is it not? therefore you can discuss your opinions...and disagree with others!

 

personally i think angryman has a point, partly because if i never get assaulted there are loads of points wasted on several pointless powerfists. anyway - marines have such a good ballistic skill for troops why not nerf them out with guns? more reliable too.

Its not what hes saying, its how hes saying it.

 

He doesnt like powerfists... fine. He doesnt think theres a point to them in a tactical squad... cool. But his arguments have mostly been "this never happens, Im to good a general for that" wich comes off as arrogant, newbish, and condescending.

 

So frankly, that there are many who disagreed with him and refused to let his points stay is simply not suprising. Others made comments with the same ideas, but were more polite... and they didnt get the same treatment because of it.

[greatcrusade08]

yes, theres a lot of truth to angry mans arguments even though I do use powerfists I can understand what hes trying to tell us and agree with most of it. in games below 1000pts i never take fists

 

i agree with grey mage, not even the best gamers can say "my tacs never get assaulted".. most of my opponents will say never say never becuase im a dirty dirty scout player :)

 

At 1000 points fists make even more difference to the game, i always run one or two at this level.

[Meatman]

i agree with grey mage, not even the best gamers can say "my tacs never get assaulted".. most of my opponents will say never say never becuase im a dirty dirty scout player :P

 

 

Seconded. My poor land raider.

[Koremu]

A Tactical Squad without a Power Fist is a big tasty target for my Command Squad to kill in CC. Safe target.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

yes, theres a lot of truth to angry mans arguments even though I do use powerfists I can understand what hes trying to tell us and agree with most of it. in games below 1000pts i never take fists

 

i agree with grey mage, not even the best gamers can say "my tacs never get assaulted".. most of my opponents will say never say never becuase im a dirty dirty scout player :lol:

 

At 1000 points fists make even more difference to the game, i always run one or two at this level.

 

my 1000 pt list has 2 fists, and my 2k list has 3. but in 500 - 850 pts i take ZERO

 

hey this was a good topic, all tempers and mild flaming aside

[Xeonic]

In my last 500 pt game I took one fist(this was vs a new player) attached to the arm of a tactical squad sergeant. That one model killed more points wise than anything else on the table, I think his kill tally was one warboss, two nobs, and a couple deffkoptas by himself. At the low points levels I find it's a great force multiplier, and generally include one in any list no matter the size(killteam may be a different story though :lol: ). Sub 1k points you see everything up to and including dreads and MCs, why wouldn't you bring a fist to help counter such things?

 

I personally don't use fists on every tactical squad, it has to meet a couple criteria, those being "will this squad be in a position to assault or be assaulted in combat?" If yes, the squad gets a melee upgrade. The next question is "what will this squad be likely to be assaulted by or assault?" Since the fist is effective vs anything in melee that's a no brainer. I'll take it every time with the sole possible exception of a 5 man combat squad where the fist might not get to swing, and even then I'd give them a fist if their intended target was vehicles.

 

My stand is that if I'm going to be in combat anyways, I may as well be killing something. If my choice is sit there to fire my heavy weapon and recieve a charge, or move up, fire assault weapon and pistols and charge, I'm going to want to charge. Tactical marines tend to fold when charged, but I can hopefully inflict a few casualties charging that I wouldn't otherwise, and likewise with a fist I can inflict wounds I wuldn't otherwise have inflicted. Even in the case of the dreadnought mentioned a couple pages back, and if I had a melta, multimelta, and fist, I'd rather move and fire the melta and go for some fist on dread action than recieve a charge from an angry dread.

 

This argument is still silly, both sides have presented their arguments, and I think the amount of utility and mileage one gets from powerfists is entirely based on playstyle.