Blood Ravens reference in A Thousand Sons

[Lord of Worms]

The third Dawn of War novel has Ahriman basically say it pretty conclusively. He says he knew Vidya personally.

[Verythrax Draconis]

SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK 1K SONS

 

 

 

 

Right near the start it mentions one of the 1k sons groups uses the Head of a raven as its logo for its sect thing then fast foward to the near the end but just before the wolves attack Magnus sends 4 smallish fleets away from Prospero with special orders and then blocked all transmissions to and from Prospero.

 

So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them then got where they were told to go read their orders and boom Blood Ravens were Founded makes sense the Colour scheme the number of Psykers and the Fact there Chapter Master is a Psyker.

 

 

Ok, assuming that the 1k Sons sent some marines away under a different name... how this new-founded chapter can appear out of nowhere and say "Hi, we're loyal Space Marines. You guys have no registrys about us, but we're nice guys" ?

[ANCIENT FALOR]

using the geneseed reserves on terra. i think its possible.

the entire fleet of 1k sons was dispersed before the razing of prospero. maybe squads of 1k sons were on them.

reguardless therea a connection.

[Jadmoroth]

SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK 1K SONS

 

 

 

 

Right near the start it mentions one of the 1k sons groups uses the Head of a raven as its logo for its sect thing then fast foward to the near the end but just before the wolves attack Magnus sends 4 smallish fleets away from Prospero with special orders and then blocked all transmissions to and from Prospero.

 

So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them then got where they were told to go read their orders and boom Blood Ravens were Founded makes sense the Colour scheme the number of Psykers and the Fact there Chapter Master is a Psyker.

 

 

Ok, assuming that the 1k Sons sent some marines away under a different name... how this new-founded chapter can appear out of nowhere and say "Hi, we're loyal Space Marines. You guys have no registrys about us, but we're nice guys" ?

 

They could show up with the second founding. With the low numbers 1K sons loyalists would have they wouldn't be in a position to play a huge part in the Heresy. The High Lords or whoever would know who they are but they wouldn't have to explicitly say they were Thousand Sons, just be evasive about it which would lead to a great deal of the suspicion other chapters have fore them today.

[Korraz]

How is it even possible to not be able to identify the primarch?! I mean, why not just take some Gene-Seed and look at it? It's not like there are that many Primarchs. It can't be Russ (no Canis Helix needed), Sanguinius (no Rage), Vulkan (not slow) or Corax (not completely messed up Gene Seed). You just need to compare it to the originals and shedaisy: We have the primarch.

[Epistolary Exander]

Why would the High Lords knowingly allow a renegade fraction of the TSs survive the heresy? Considering Papa Smurf & possibly the other primarchs amongst their number, the High Lords would be too biased to take that kind of decision.

 

Its far more likely that if the BR are TS renegades they'd just attack & destroy freshly founded 2nd founding chapter & assume their identity. Ideally before the destroyed chapter sends any geneseed to the Mechanicus, so the only geneseed that the admech dont have other geneseed samples to reference. Especially as the mechanicus keeps all geneseed separate by chapter / time locked for the traitor legions.

 

But then if the BR are TS succsessors how have they survived 10'000 with the most unstable geneseed of the 18 legions? Considering other chapter's with high levels of mutation are either disbanded (Wolfbrothers/ become extinct/ destroyed (Flame Falcons) or have to rely on the mechanicus for fresh/ pure geneseed (Raven Guard). Its highly unlikely that the any chapter descended from Magnus would have survived 10000 years. Its for this reason Id doubt the High Lords/ Mechanicus would ever use the TSs geneseed to found a chapter.

 

Exander

[WolfGuardVortek]

I was under the impression that Magnus fixed the TSons geneseed to some extent.

[Leonaides]

or maybe its a link to the most recent DoW book where a BR librarian ends up with a bunch of Ahrimans fellow TS outcasts - lost sons and a raven of blood? You never know, maybe he saw an element of his own future but didnt know how it was connected.

[Epistolary Exander]

I'm under the impression Tzeentch cursed the TS geneseed & then used that to manipulate the legion & Magnus into becoming its pawns. Magnus "saved" the legion by selling his soul to Tzeentch, thats not curing the geneseed problem. Magnus merely brought his legion time, which elapsed when the SW razed Tizca to the ground. Hundreds if not thousands of the TS turned into waht is essentially chaos spawn during the battle, which based on A Thousand Sons played a large part in allowing the SW to win the battle of Tizca :P .

[Vash113]

Right near the start it mentions one of the 1k sons groups uses the Head of a raven as its logo for its sect thing then fast foward to the near the end but just before the wolves attack Magnus sends 4 smallish fleets away from Prospero with special orders and then blocked all transmissions to and from Prospero.

 

So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them then got where they were told to go read their orders and boom Blood Ravens were Founded makes sense the Colour scheme the number of Psykers and the Fact there Chapter Master is a Psyker.

 

The problem is, that makes absolutely no sense. On the contrary the book makes it fairly clear that Magnus was simply sending Prospero's orbital defenses away. Plus no matter what happened to the fleet, they couldn't have formed the Blood Ravens as the Rubric of Ahriman affected every Thousand Son, everywhere, it wasn't a locally contained thing according to the fluff. So even if there were Thousand Sons aboard those ships they would have mostly been turned to dust like the rest of the Legion.

 

And even if that were not the case the Thousand Sons gene-seed was utterly unstable, there's no way it could have survived without the control of Sorcery or the Rubric, Magnus couldn't save it and there's no reason it would have stabilised after the Heresy, it was too far gone when Magnus got to it decades before hand.

 

So even if someone tried to use the Thousand Sons gene-seed for the Blood Ravens it would have resulted in horrible and abberant mutations.

 

As for the text, yes it could indicate the Blood Ravens (Raven of blood is a strange phrase) however I took it in an entirely different way. In reference with the attack of the Wolves the Raven is an old omen of ill fate and death. Therefore reference to a "Raven" or a "Raven of blood" could merely be a foretelling of horrible doom and calamity and have nothing to do with the Blood Ravens or Raven Guard what so ever.

 

However all things told I could care less, the Blood Ravens fluff is on a steady decline straight into the dirt, the former mystique ruined by a hodgepodge of other Chapters traits and nonsense. A solid attempt to directly link them to the Thousand Sons wouldn't surprise me but could neither hurt or help the Chapter at this point, it's too far gone already.

[Lord of Worms]

The problem is, that makes absolutely no sense. On the contrary the book makes it fairly clear that Magnus was simply sending Prospero's orbital defenses away. Plus no matter what happened to the fleet, they couldn't have formed the Blood Ravens as the Rubric of Ahriman affected every Thousand Son, everywhere, it wasn't a locally contained thing according to the fluff.

 

What`s your source on that? In every chaos codex and Index Astartes article it clearly describes a massive lightning storm of magic and whatnot over the Planet of Sorcerors, not every guy across the cosmos.

[Vash113]

What`s your source on that? In every chaos codex and Index Astartes article it clearly describes a massive lightning storm of magic and whatnot over the Planet of Sorcerors, not every guy across the cosmos.

 

Ah I guess I was mistaken. Still there's absolutely no way the Blood Ravens could use Thousand Sons gene-seed without suffering horrific and widespread mutation. Nor were there any remnant Thousand Sons anywhere that the fluff notes that could have formed the basis of such a group. After all the Thousand Sons had pretty much entirely returned to Prospero before the Heresy and the invasion of the Space Wolves. There weren't any groups out on Campaign somewhere, not after the Council of Nikea.

 

The whole Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons is so impractical and rediculous given the fluff that it's just plain nuts. But given GW that won't stop them from doing it anyway.

[Paradigm]

I was under the impression that the Gene-seed problems arose after the TSons left the Imperiums fold? I have yet to read "A Thousand Sons" however, is it mentioned in there?

[BrotherAtrox]

What`s your source on that? In every chaos codex and Index Astartes article it clearly describes a massive lightning storm of magic and whatnot over the Planet of Sorcerors, not every guy across the cosmos.

 

Ah I guess I was mistaken. Still there's absolutely no way the Blood Ravens could use Thousand Sons gene-seed without suffering horrific and widespread mutation. Nor were there any remnant Thousand Sons anywhere that the fluff notes that could have formed the basis of such a group. After all the Thousand Sons had pretty much entirely returned to Prospero before the Heresy and the invasion of the Space Wolves. There weren't any groups out on Campaign somewhere, not after the Council of Nikea.

 

The whole Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons is so impractical and rediculous given the fluff that it's just plain nuts. But given GW that won't stop them from doing it anyway.

 

Unless the geneseed was tampered with. Or it mutated further. Or maybe the Blood Ravens do suffer from horrific and widespread mutation?

[Korraz]

The GS was alreade extremely unstable, but Magnus preserved it with his own and with massive amounts of sorcery. After they went into the Eye, it became completely :cussed up, which then led to the whole Dust-In-Cans-Thingy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The GS was alreade extremely unstable, but Magnus preserved it with his own and with massive amounts of sorcery. After they went into the Eye, it became completely :cussed up, which then led to the whole Dust-In-Cans-Thingy.

 

the "Dust-In-Cans-Thingy" was due to Ahriman, unless GW retconned that too.

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

The third Dawn of War novel has Ahriman basically say it pretty conclusively. He says he knew Vidya personally.

 

Ahriman is a servant of Tzeentch and is about as reliable as a Skoda.

 

That is the thing, he could well be lying, or perhaps the two met on the battlefield? The plot thickens...

[Korraz]

the "Dust-In-Cans-Thingy" was due to Ahriman, unless GW retconned that too.

 

WLK

 

Yeah. The mutations went through the ceiling and Ahriman tried to stop that with his sorcery, which produced that pretty dusty legion.

[Draeden]

Alright, lets look over the evidence in regards to the Blood Ravens history.

 

-No concrete history prior to M.37, any history that does exist is under Inquisitor seal

-High number of Librarians

-A Primarch they refuse to name

-Librarians in commanding positions

-Close ties to the Ordo Malleus

 

Going through bit by bit.

 

-High number of Librarians

-An unknown Primarch

 

The only Primarch recorded to have a high psyker legion is Magnus. While yes, the Thousand Son geneseed is rife with mutation, that mutation in most common point is the act of becoming a high level psyker. Now other mutations would exist, for sure, but that would come more from delving deeper and deeper into the warp (through sorcery). Now I'm unsure how much the Librarians of the Blood Ravens do delve into sorcery, but since in this argument I'm going to say it is Thousand Son geneseed, they're going to play the part of loyalist as much as they can. Which brings me to another point, the Unknown Primarch. That right there as has been said is a lie. How can a Chapter not know its Primarch? What if the truth is the leaders know who their Primarch is and purposefully refuse to state it. Imagine the impact it'd have out there on Imperial Society if the Blood Ravens went "Magnus the Daemon Primarch is our Primarch, and we came from the relentless Thousand Sons". No, it'd make more sense for them to purposefully supress that information, even within the chapter.

 

That brings me to the Inquisition.

-No Information prior to M.37 save for Inquisitorial Seal

-Close ties with Ordo Malleus

 

Now, presuming once again that Garro went onto found the Grey Knights, along with Qruze and the Remembrancers, what's to stop them from extending a friendly hand to those who chose to remain loyal from other traitor legions? Even if they wanted to remain independant. So, it goes to say, that if the Ordo Malleus can supress their origins as being founded from two seperate Traitor Legions, couldn't they do the same for the Blood Ravens? It'd make even more sense to keep them seperate from the Ordo Malleus as well. The Ordo Malleus deals with fighting Daemons en mass, and whilst all Grey Knights to my understanding have some basic level of psionic prowess, it pales in comparison to a full on Librarian and especially one as mutable as the Thousand Sons. So it'd make sense that the Ordo Malleus would try to shield the Blood Ravens from warp forces.

 

Take it for what you will, but if you are to continue to debate if Blood Ravens are Thousand Son Loyalists, I'd ask you to keep what I have said in mind.

[Verythrax Draconis]

What's the source for the Ordo Malleus involvement? The books? Cause I don't remember seeing it in the games - but I can be wrong.

[Koremu]

Why would the High Lords knowingly allow a renegade fraction of the TSs survive the heresy? Considering Papa Smurf & possibly the other primarchs amongst their number, the High Lords would be too biased to take that kind of decision.

Necessity. The Imperium at the close of the Heresy was a fragile, war-torn place. Even a few hundred marines was an invaluable resource at the time (remember here that even if every Loyalist First and Second founding Chapter was at 100% strength, there would still have been less than 60,000 loyalist Astartes).

 

And it's heavily implied that a certain former member of the Death Guard would have been the man responsible for vetting these Loyalists...

[Draeden]

What's the source for the Ordo Malleus involvement? The books? Cause I don't remember seeing it in the games - but I can be wrong.

 

Index Astartes Blood Ravens. The Kronus Campaign is an example of their close working ties.

[Whitefireinferno]

Well the TS geneseed was unstable due to the prolonged use of sorcery so who knows the whole Magnus sending off fleets with sealed orders one of those could have been along the lines of "Quit with the Sorcery or your all going to die!!!" also "Don't go telling folks Im your dad they wont like it"

[Verythrax Draconis]

What's the source for the Ordo Malleus involvement? The books? Cause I don't remember seeing it in the games - but I can be wrong.

 

Index Astartes Blood Ravens. The Kronus Campaign is an example of their close working ties.

 

Where was it published, a WD?

[Draeden]

I'm talking about the one in the Librarium. Not the most legitimate reference but it makes sense to me. Afterall, without having close ties to the Inquisition I can't see the Inquisition tolerating the Blood Ravens.