The 13th Goat Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Why would the High Lords knowingly allow a renegade fraction of the TSs survive the heresy? Considering Papa Smurf & possibly the other primarchs amongst their number, the High Lords would be too biased to take that kind of decision. Necessity. The Imperium at the close of the Heresy was a fragile, war-torn place. Even a few hundred marines was an invaluable resource at the time (remember here that even if every Loyalist First and Second founding Chapter was at 100% strength, there would still have been less than 60,000 loyalist Astartes). And it's heavily implied that a certain former member of the Death Guard would have been the man responsible for vetting these Loyalists... Keep in mind the High Lords would include Leman Russ as well. I really doubt he would be thrilled at the Blood Ravens being welcomed back. Also, where does it mention Garro helping them at all? Having collected Thousand Sons and loved their history and the recent book, I'd love to know where i missed that "heavy involvement" part. I'm talking about the one in the Librarium. Not the most legitimate reference but it makes sense to me. Afterall, without having close ties to the Inquisition I can't see the Inquisition tolerating the Blood Ravens. Our Librarium on the site? Or the Lexicanum? Regardless, their not GW acredited histories, mostly sculpted by fans. They are non cannon until published or endorsed by GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Our Librarium. But yeah, fair enough point. As for Garro, it's strongly implied that Garro and the Death Guard Loyalists go onto found the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, it seem to make sense once again for them to have a large say in the fate of the Loyalists aspects of the Traitor Legions. Though we'll have to wait for the new Audio Book featuring Garro to be sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 The only theoretical way i could see this working is if the TS that left Prospero (itself unlikely) got lost in the Warp upon fleeing. Surviving 7'000 years in the warp until M37, they emerged and learnt what happened. Realizing they would be hunted down and destroyed, they assumed the story they had an unknown Primarch, and began operating as loyalists. By the time the Administratum and Inquisition got round to it, they had done some good work. Convinced, they left them to it. But thats has so many holes in it a sive would retain more belief..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skritz Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 Sorry, I don't buy the "BR have traitor geneseed" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 So My theroy is they are indeed a 2nd founding of the Thousand sons or are first founding who left before the Rubric was cast and it did not effect them The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Maybe the BR's are a Lamenters equivalent? If they could mess massively with geneseed during the Cursed Founding to the point that the Black Rage was cured, I don't see why it would be so unlikely that traitor geneseed could be experimented with, or fixed for that matter. Hell, with Tzeentch involved, it's probably the single most likely traitor geneseed to be used in that sort of situation, especially if radical members of the Ordo Malleus or cultists in high places were involved. For that matter, the geneseed being uses by loyalists with no heretical interference is still plausible when you consider we have a loyal chapter that was created for the purpose of being possessed by daemons and then exorcised, as well as many other non-standard examples. Of course that discounts the whole escaped fleet and possible survivors thing, but the two theories aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Company Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 This may be a little OT, but maybe it'll land some more light on the Blood Ravens, even if it might be blood red light... SPOILER!!!!!! According to the DOW II; Chaos Rising X-pac, I'm now more sure then ever, that the Blood Ravens are a lot closer to the Chaos gods then we know... The Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens spent several hundereds of years on the space hulk, that was crawling with 'Nids and a Grate Unclean One, then went so far as to bind the deamon into one of his own brothers! And now he forbids the chapter to fight Chaos forces, going so far as to leave entire sectors hoding their :) well standing naked in the wind. So we have the marks of a traitor legion if you ask me, that is atleast trying to pass the test to be seen as the good guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 The Chaos influence came from being stuck inside a daemon infested Space Hulk. This situation could happen with any chapter, it doesn't prove any relation with TSs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skritz Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 The Chaos influence came from being stuck inside a daemon infested Space Hulk. This situation could happen with any chapter, it doesn't prove any relation with TSs. True. Except for Grey Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 The Chaos influence came from being stuck inside a daemon infested Space Hulk. This situation could happen with any chapter, it doesn't prove any relation with TSs. True. Except for Grey Knights. Sure. I just don't consider GK as marines strictu sensu :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 With all this talk of the TS geneseed being used for BR, what if instead it was used on the Grey Kinghts? You have a chapter full to the brim with powerful psykers & officially with unknown geneseed. Why would you use Death Guard geneseed when you need powerful pykers to help banish daemons. Exander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skritz Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Blood Ravens looks too stable to be TS, unless they found a way to "repair" the gene-seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korraz Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Anyway, I don't really see how "Many Libarians" really points that much at T-Sons. As far as I know, Gene Seed can't make you a psyker, you have to be one in the first place. So the BRs are simply recruiting from populations with many psykers, like Prospero's citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadmoroth Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Blood Ravens looks too stable to be TS, unless they found a way to "repair" the gene-seed. In Tempest the scout "Ckrius had grown strange fleshy stumps with a series of intertwining tendrils protruding where fingers should have been." Although to be fair this could be as much a result of the speed of the implantation process as it could be from unstable gene-seed. It is known that their gene-seed does have it's kinks. Blood Ravens don't dream but but have perfect recall due to a mutation of the Catalepsean Node. Also, I suspect a mutation that boosts psychic potential might be what makes their psykers so powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. The whole story is about Magnus trying to save the Thousand Sons from corruption, and if anything he wanted them wiped out for the spreading decay of the Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skritz Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Blood Ravens looks too stable to be TS, unless they found a way to "repair" the gene-seed. In Tempest the scout "Ckrius had grown strange fleshy stumps with a series of intertwining tendrils protruding where fingers should have been." Although to be fair this could be as much a result of the speed of the implantation process as it could be from unstable gene-seed. It is known that their gene-seed does have it's kinks. Blood Ravens don't dream but but have perfect recall due to a mutation of the Catalepsean Node. Also, I suspect a mutation that boosts psychic potential might be what makes their psykers so powerful. One mutated scout doesnt really prove anything. How badly mutated are TS anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korraz Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I'd say Pre Magnus' Comeback: Guys, wie have a problem... (Compared to Dark Angels, 1-5 with 5 the worst: 4) Post Magnus' Comeback, pre Heresy: Okay, I got this under control, we'll find a way and we have fresh Seed. (3) Post Heresy: HOLY CRAP! THE ROOF'S ON FIRE! (5) Now: Dusty. (0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. Why would Magnus keep the TS on the Planet of the Sorcerers to wait for the Emperor's justice? It's in the Eye for Tzeentch's sake, there's no way the Emperor could get to them. We all know part of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch included delivering his Legion into Tzeentch's service (aka "corrupting them"), which he obviously did since they participated in the Siege of Terra. Besides, he's a daemon at this point, with all the moral and spiritual corruption that implies, why would he let any member of his Legion leave without proof of their loyalty to Tzeentch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. Why would Magnus keep the TS on the Planet of the Sorcerers to wait for the Emperor's justice? It's in the Eye for Tzeentch's sake, there's no way the Emperor could get to them. We all know part of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch included delivering his Legion into Tzeentch's service (aka "corrupting them"), which he obviously did since they participated in the Siege of Terra. Besides, he's a daemon at this point, with all the moral and spiritual corruption that implies, why would he let any member of his Legion leave without proof of their loyalty to Tzeentch? Should read the book mate.... He's talking about Prospero, not the Planet of Sorcerers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. Why would Magnus keep the TS on the Planet of the Sorcerers to wait for the Emperor's justice? It's in the Eye for Tzeentch's sake, there's no way the Emperor could get to them. We all know part of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch included delivering his Legion into Tzeentch's service (aka "corrupting them"), which he obviously did since they participated in the Siege of Terra. Besides, he's a daemon at this point, with all the moral and spiritual corruption that implies, why would he let any member of his Legion leave without proof of their loyalty to Tzeentch? Should read the book mate.... He's talking about Prospero, not the Planet of Sorcerers... But he's responding to my post, which wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Mechanicum Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 Read the book, it tells you Magnus's deal with a Tzeetchian demon if not Tzeetch itself. And I might have to go pick up the Blood Ravens books now (*shakes fist at authors name*) even though i'm going to expect alot of strangeness that is Goto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 In my opinion, even after just the DoW Omnibus, the Blood Ravens are a splinter group of Thousand Sons, who together with the Inquisition have fixed the records. There's enough clues in the DoW books to indicate this and hint at it without any references from the HH, and while I haven't read the entire HH novel, I've seen the quoted passages typically mentioned as the 'spoilers' and believe that they, taken together with the DoW Omnibus and DoW II (which I've read the book but not played the game as my current PC isn't up to the task) definately fit the hypothesis. Granted until someone officially says it is so, a hypothesis is all it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoby Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 Until I see definitive proof otherwise I'm sure they are 1k sons, or at the very least a secret founding from them. My personal theory on why they don't mutate like you would expect is that Tzeentch caused the mutations, exploiting their psychic abilities to mutate/posess them, knowing Magnus would do anything to stop the mutations and that he could be corrupted. Since Magnus is a demon prince and the 1k sons who were on the planet of sorcerers were turned to rubric marines, Tzeentch doesn't really have a need to mutate the Blood Ravens, and if he/it has any hold over them then why would he/it risk losing their cover as loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mob16151 Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. Why would Magnus keep the TS on the Planet of the Sorcerers to wait for the Emperor's justice? It's in the Eye for Tzeentch's sake, there's no way the Emperor could get to them. We all know part of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch included delivering his Legion into Tzeentch's service (aka "corrupting them"), which he obviously did since they participated in the Siege of Terra. Besides, he's a daemon at this point, with all the moral and spiritual corruption that implies, why would he let any member of his Legion leave without proof of their loyalty to Tzeentch? So umm how does one go about doing that? I mean is there an interview? Magnus: Hey you like change Bob The Space Marine: Yea I guess, its ok. Magnus:Whats your opinion of reading and learning? Bob: Its ok I guess Magnus: Bob, your such a dork. Anyhow have fun out there, or whatever. I dont even really care, but Tzeentch makes me do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 The latter is impossible. There's no way Magnus would have let Marines leave the Planet of the Sorcerers without having completed their corruption, so they could not have reverted to Imperial service. I take it you didn't actually read A Thousand Sons then. Magnus wasn't keeping them there to corrupt; he was holding them there to wait for the Emperor's justice. Why would Magnus keep the TS on the Planet of the Sorcerers to wait for the Emperor's justice? It's in the Eye for Tzeentch's sake, there's no way the Emperor could get to them. We all know part of Magnus' deal with Tzeentch included delivering his Legion into Tzeentch's service (aka "corrupting them"), which he obviously did since they participated in the Siege of Terra. Besides, he's a daemon at this point, with all the moral and spiritual corruption that implies, why would he let any member of his Legion leave without proof of their loyalty to Tzeentch? So umm how does one go about doing that? I mean is there an interview? Auras were a big deal earlier in the book. I assume the aura of an individual that has been corrupted by Chaos is visibly different from one who has not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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