Blood Ravens reference in A Thousand Sons

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Key word:

 

assume

[Grand Master Tyrak]

In my opinion, even after just the DoW Omnibus, the Blood Ravens are a splinter group of Thousand Sons, who together with the Inquisition have fixed the records.

 

Do you mean the Administratum?

 

I'm just wondering, as the Inquisition would have to undergo radical changes before it could wield that kind of power. Or any power, for that matter.

[Priest33]

hrm... just throwing something new out there but why couldnt they be a splinter cell for the Alpha Legion. To me that seems like a perfectly viable choice as well...

[mob16151]

hrm... just throwing something new out there but why couldnt they be a splinter cell for the Alpha Legion. To me that seems like a perfectly viable choice as well...

 

 

That is an interesting point. My only argument would be that I seem to remember Alpha Legion as beinga legion with a low percentage of psykers.Something about there gene seed being so pure. However I may be getting them confused with someone else though.

[Lord_Zyplon]

In my opinion, even after just the DoW Omnibus, the Blood Ravens are a splinter group of Thousand Sons, who together with the Inquisition have fixed the records.

 

Do you mean the Administratum?

 

I'm just wondering, as the Inquisition would have to undergo radical changes before it could wield that kind of power. Or any power, for that matter.

 

They are the Inquisition, it would be a simple matter of holding a bolt pistol to the right person's head ;)

EDIT: I'm not clear. The future/i] Inquisition wouldn't have issues fudging the details, you're right about the early one. Granted, the loyalist TS wouldn't have to tell the truth about their origins - some half-baked lie of "What do you mean, there are no records? We're Ultramarine successors, like everyone else!"

 

I am of the opinion that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons in one way or another, but the fact is: the biggest hints have been dropped by Ahriman, who's not exactly the most trustworthy guy around.

[The emperors chosen]

There is only one problem that I see with this whole idea, and that is the geneseed. Every chapter has to send geneseed to the ad mech, to check for purity, so wouldn't the ad mech just recognize it as TS geneseed, I mean, it can't have changed that much.

[Korraz]

Yeah, but they screwed the Ravens already that much up, why not having them Alpha Legionesque agents in the Ad Mech that are faking the tests, or why not having them killing loyal Marines and using their Gene Seeds? Nobody would miss the over 9000 Ultramarine Successors.

 

/sarcasm off.

[Epistolary Exander]

Each individual chapter's geneseed is stored separately from each other & the traitor legions geneseed had been time stasis locked. So the admech couldnt check if any traitor geneseed is in use & there is no evidence that the admech or anyone uses DNA testing on geneseed to compare which lineage any chapter is from. They rely on archive records, which can be lost or falsified.

[Korraz]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

[Epistolary Exander]

As you said the admech isnt stupid & its hard for an 8 foot tall super human to disguise himself especially as mainly bionic techpriset. Its highly unlikely that the alpha legion would alter those records unless its for the own benefits, especially as the Alpha Legion operate independently as warbands now. Why would work with the Thousand Sons?

 

I also believe that the TS geneseed is too unstable to allow any chapter to be successfully founded from them.

[WGXH]

Being made from Thousand Sons Geneseed and surviving the Rubric?

 

or not going through the Rubric, and just simply ignoring the 'Flesh change'?

 

It's too late... the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood. The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!

 

I always took this as:

 

 

 

1) Russ is coming.

2) He wants to kill us all.

3) The Blood, the Ravens- Ahriman's Cordivae being massacred.

4) The lost sons- brother fighting brother.

5) Lost knowledge- Prospero burning.

 

 

 

 

Relics own Dawn of War games have one or two hints about the Ravens coming from Sanguinius Gene-Seed. it gives reason as to why Abaddon himself hates them in Dark Crusade and Chaos Rising, as he fought against them at Terra. This is more or less also the only direct and to the point reference on the gene-seed the Blood Ravens have.

[randian]

I also believe that the TS geneseed is too unstable to allow any chapter to be successfully founded from them.

True, but that doesn't apply to the other Traitor Legions. The entire idea of locking up geneseed is tantamount to "sins of the father", a fallacy which the supposedly smart AdMech shouldn't be beholden to. Other than geneseed that subjects the Marine to mutation and greater risk of daemonic possession, of which the only example we have is Thousand Sons, there is zero evidence that genetic predisposition was at fault for the Heresy. Indeed, there is zero evidence that there can be genetic predisposition for such a thing. The World Eaters weren't really Khorne material until the rage device program became legion-wide, and Lorgar would still be a pouting child if not for the honeyed words of Kor Phaeron, which any emotionally compromised individual could be swayed by.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

there is zero evidence that genetic predisposition was at fault for the Heresy. Indeed, there is zero evidence that there can be genetic predisposition for such a thing.

 

To us, yes. To the AdMech, there is no evidence either way, and so they don't risk it. Why would they when they have loyalist gene-seed?

 

It's not like Chaos Marines are flocking to Mars to have DNA tests and get their names cleared either. :)

[The Broker]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

 

Except technology.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

Except technology.

 

The Cult Mechanicus came about because the technology had been lost, in order to preserve what little was left. Had it not been lost, there would be no Cult Mechanicus and therefore nothing to make into the Adeptus Mechanicus when the Emperor comes to Mars, and nothing to regress into the post-Heresy Cult Mechanicus.

 

Put it this way, if the Mechanicus had been the ones to lose the technology, they are either 1) a paradox, or 2) capable of time travel. :o

[The Broker]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

Except technology.

 

The Cult Mechanicus came about because the technology had been lost, in order to preserve what little was left. Had it not been lost, there would be no Cult Mechanicus and therefore nothing to make into the Adeptus Mechanicus when the Emperor comes to Mars, and nothing to regress into the post-Heresy Cult Mechanicus.

 

Put it this way, if the Mechanicus had been the ones to lose the technology, they are either 1) a paradox, or 2) capable of time travel. :rolleyes:

 

Both the Rhino and Terminator armour have been described as lost technology in the background.

 

Since the Adeptus Mechanicus is responsible for building and researching technology, they must have had the knowledge to build these at some point.

 

They don't now.

 

=> They lost the technical knowledge.

 

And there's your paradox.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

Except technology.

The Cult Mechanicus came about because the technology had been lost, in order to preserve what little was left. Had it not been lost, there would be no Cult Mechanicus and therefore nothing to make into the Adeptus Mechanicus when the Emperor comes to Mars, and nothing to regress into the post-Heresy Cult Mechanicus.

 

Put it this way, if the Mechanicus had been the ones to lose the technology, they are either 1) a paradox, or 2) capable of time travel. :D

Both the Rhino and Terminator armour have been described as lost technology in the background.

 

Since the Adeptus Mechanicus is responsible for building and researching technology, they must have had the knowledge to build these at some point.

 

They don't now.

 

=> They lost the technical knowledge.

 

And there's your paradox.

 

That is only true if the Adeptus Mechanicus is an eternal institution.

 

Consider:

 

The British Museum is responsible for researching and preserving records of the Classical world.

 

Since they have access to the remains, they must have had access to the full records at some point.

 

They do not have the complete records now.

 

Therefore they are responsible for the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria (and the huge loss of records that came from that).

 

The whole idea makes you go "Wait, what?", and it should. In both cases, we have two flaws:

 

1) The premise that those attempting to preserve the records must be those who originally owned them. In both cases, those who originally owned the records lived millennia before those who are trying to preserve them. The idea that the preservers are the original owners, and that the preservers had access to the original records is unsubstantiated at best. I have a copy of what bits of Livy's Roman History have survived on my bookshelf - since I have copies of the remains, should we therefore assume that at some point I owned a full copy, and that as a result I am responsible for losing all the books that haven't survived?

 

2)The implied premise that there cannot have been any outside interventions. Having the complete records, and then not having complete records at a later date does not prove a causal link. Anything or anyone could have intervened. I'll put out another example: a Chapter has its Fortress-Monastery destroyed by Chaos invaders, and loses its gene-seed stocks along with it. Since they once had complete stocks, the loss of the gene-seed must therefore be their fault, regardless of whether or not you know about the Chaos invasion. The idea that only the Adeptus Mechanicus could have had access to the technological knowledge doesn't work - the AdMech's technological monopoly doesn't come about until the Treaty of Mars. Anyone could have been responsible for the loss of the STCs during the Age of Strife.

 

EDIT - That's enough brain games for one day. :lol: :D

[The Broker]

I don't think the AdMech would lose something that important. In general, the Mechanicus is not known for losing anything.

It's not like that there are nearly uncorrupted Chaos Marines, like the Alpha Legion, out there, that could try to infiltrate the Imperium by pretending to be a loyalist chapter.

The Mechanicus isn't stupid.

Except technology.

The Cult Mechanicus came about because the technology had been lost, in order to preserve what little was left. Had it not been lost, there would be no Cult Mechanicus and therefore nothing to make into the Adeptus Mechanicus when the Emperor comes to Mars, and nothing to regress into the post-Heresy Cult Mechanicus.

 

Put it this way, if the Mechanicus had been the ones to lose the technology, they are either 1) a paradox, or 2) capable of time travel. ;)

Both the Rhino and Terminator armour have been described as lost technology in the background.

 

Since the Adeptus Mechanicus is responsible for building and researching technology, they must have had the knowledge to build these at some point.

 

They don't now.

 

=> They lost the technical knowledge.

 

And there's your paradox.

 

That is only true if the Adeptus Mechanicus is an eternal institution.

 

Consider:

 

The British Museum is responsible for researching and preserving records of the Classical world.

 

Since they have access to the remains, they must have had access to the full records at some point.

 

They do not have the complete records now.

 

Therefore they are responsible for the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria (and the huge loss of records that came from that).

 

The whole idea makes you go "Wait, what?", and it should. In both cases, we have two flaws:

 

1) The premise that those attempting to preserve the records must be those who originally owned them. In both cases, those who originally owned the records lived millennia before those who are trying to preserve them. The idea that the preservers are the original owners, and that the preservers had access to the original records is unsubstantiated at best. I have a copy of what bits of Livy's Roman History have survived on my bookshelf - since I have copies of the remains, should we therefore assume that at some point I owned a full copy, and that as a result I am responsible for losing all the books that haven't survived?

 

2)The implied premise that there cannot have been any outside interventions. Having the complete records, and then not having complete records at a later date does not prove a causal link. Anything or anyone could have intervened. I'll put out another example: a Chapter has its Fortress-Monastery destroyed by Chaos invaders, and loses its gene-seed stocks along with it. Since they once had complete stocks, the loss of the gene-seed must therefore be their fault, regardless of whether or not you know about the Chaos invasion. The idea that only the Adeptus Mechanicus could have had access to the technological knowledge doesn't work - the AdMech's technological monopoly doesn't come about until the Treaty of Mars. Anyone could have been responsible for the loss of the STCs during the Age of Strife.

 

EDIT - That's enough brain games for one day. :wacko: :P

 

Except we know for a fact that they could produce both Terminator armour and the Rhino at certain points in history, such as the Heresy.

 

While Mars was invaded during the Horus Heresy, and could have lost the expertise to produce Termie Armour during this period, I feel the fact that each Crux Terminatus holds a fragment of the Emperor's armour while he battled Horus indicates that Terminator armour was produced post-Heresy.

 

And your argument is a straw man, a more apt example would be saying that you produced the records personally but later lost the records and the details they contained. Seeing as the AM would need to know the design of both Terminator Armour and the Rhino in order to have produced them at any point.

 

Which they did, unless you think every Rhino and suit of Termie Armour is a relic of the Age of Strife? :P

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Rather than re-quoting everything, I'll just lay out my position as a timeline:

 

1) The Dark Age of Technology. STCs are created and taken to the stars as Humanity colonises the galaxy.

 

2) The Age of Strife. Humanity's colonies are cut off from each other and much technological knowledge is lost in the conflict.

 

3) The founding of the Cult Mechanicus on Mars at some point during the Age of Strife.

 

4) The Great Crusade and the Treaty of Mars. The Cult Mechanicus becomes the Adeptus Mechanicus and gains its technological monopoly. Remnants of STCs or more complete STCs are rediscovered as the Crusade pushes outwards and are brought to Mars to be stored, analysed and rebuilt.

 

5) The Horus Heresy. The conflict on Mars results in the loss of most of the knowledge that was recovered by the Great Crusade. We don't know exactly how much knowledge was lost, or how much was brought in. This effectively 'resets' the Imperium's technological position (bar what survived the Heresy) to what it was at the start of the Great Crusade.

 

6) The AdMech's technological monopoly continues and more STCs are rediscovered and rebuilt, like the Lightning Fighter, various Land Raider variants.

 

Therefore, the AdMech (mostly the Dark Mech) is responsible for what little was lost in the Horus Heresy (and it is little, compared to what was lost, temporarily or not, in the Age of Strife). However, they are not responsible for the loss of technology in the Age of Strife - they didn't have custody, and nor did they exist. The RH1NO STC is a 'lost' technology from the Age of Strife that was rediscovered and survived the Heresy, and as a result the AdMech are not responsible for its temporary loss. The 'loss' of Terminator Armour technology is their fault (although it is still being built, see the discussion in Amicus Aedes) since it is not an STC and is a Great Crusade-era invention, much like Power Armour.

 

To add to that, some things were deliberately 'lost'. Dreadclaw drop pods were retired, for example, as were several classes of warships as Imperial Navy doctrine evolved. Older marks of power armour ceased production once the MkVII design had been completed. Sentient A.I. was vetoed by the Emperor thanks to the Iron Men 'incident'.

 

So we end up having to work out what technology was purely Heresy-era (some things are obvious, like PA and TDA) and is therefore the AdMech's fault for losing, and what was lost in the Age of Strife (anything Heresy-era that survived the Heresy or anything rediscovered after the Heresy) and is therefore not the AdMech's fault.

[Korraz]

As you said the admech isnt stupid & its hard for an 8 foot tall super human to disguise himself especially as mainly bionic techpriset. Its highly unlikely that the alpha legion would alter those records unless its for the own benefits, especially as the Alpha Legion operate independently as warbands now. Why would work with the Thousand Sons?

 

I also believe that the TS geneseed is too unstable to allow any chapter to be successfully founded from them.

 

 

No, you got me wrong. I meant: The Legion would sneak back into the Imperium, not the T-Sons.

 

 

Also: The little stuff the Adeptus Mechanicus lost, was lost during the Horus Heresy, the greatest disaster the Imperium ever encountered. Losing the routines to compare Gene Seed with the traitors would be like "He, we have a new bunch of gene seed. Where is the Thousand Sons stuff?" "Don't know, last time I saw it, Frank had it." "Hey Frank, where are the Thousand Sons samples?" "I put them back. Seems like an intern lost them."

[The Broker]

But the loss of the Rhino STC isn't temporary.

 

It's specifically stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the Imperium no longer has the capability to construct them.

 

Which doesn't make much sense tbf, because on the same page, it mentions that the main advantage of the Rhino is its ease of construction.

 

It's an inconsistency really, same way that the construction methods of Termie armour is lost, while small amounts are still beign made.

[Korraz]

Dude. Ward wrote the Fluff. Inconsistency is the least problem :rolleyes:

[randian]

Sentient A.I. was vetoed by the Emperor thanks to the Iron Men 'incident'.

Which is amusing, seeing as how a high-level member of the AdMech has so much of their brain replaced that there's little difference between them and a sentient AI. The intelligences in the core system on Mars, which are copies of now-dead AdMech leaders, are pretty much straight-up sentient AI, albeit of the non-ambulatory variety. The doublethink required to claim none of these things have anything to do with AI is considerable.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Sentient A.I. was vetoed by the Emperor thanks to the Iron Men 'incident'.

Which is amusing, seeing as how a high-level member of the AdMech has so much of their brain replaced that there's little difference between them and a sentient AI.

 

It's the other way round. 'Human' brains in control of mechanical bodies, or implanted into machines. It's sentient A.I. of a sort, but not what you'd call 'true' A.I. To borrow a phrase from Terminator 3, humans need to be kept in the loop. It's still paradoxical since the AdMech values the kind of mechanical logic that sentient A.I. adopts (and so their thinking mimics that), but they're not breaking the letter of the Emperor's decree.

[hmk17]

I took the passage as an outline of the Battle of Prospero and less predictions of a far flung chapter of future space marines, though I can see the allusion you guys are seeing.

 

As to the TS geneseed mutation: The Serpent, when talking to Magnus, points out that Magnus has always been watched by Chaos. It stands to reason that Tzeentch (the schemer, mind you) would have taken steps to start playing on the psyker part of the geneseed. Causing it to manifest fully in previously non-psykers shouldn't be something too terribly difficult and would be perfect bait to lure in the desperate, but arrogant Magnus.

 

Once Magnus made his deal, the mutation stopped. Tzeentch had his foothold and there was no need to play that card anymore, until all the Chaos gods decided to go all in on Horus. Magnus was a loose cannon for both sides. Horus knew Magnus was loyal to the Emperor, but the things he did in secret were revealed to Horus. Playing on Magnus' arrogance, Horus used the Imperium to remove a potential threat to the plan. However, Tzeentch still wanted Magnus for himself; giving him an escape, a world, and daemonhood.

 

With Magnus and ilk now safely in the sway of Tzeentch, there would be no reason to continue toying with the geneseed of any TS left behind in the galaxy. (Battle for the Abyss points out that there were still TS loyalists out there attempting to go back to Prospero from far flung posts, even at the time of the attack on Macragge.)

 

So it is possible for the Blood Ravens to have been the overlooked bastard prodigy of Magnus.

 

However, whether GW has changed positions since DoW is another thing. There are a lot of hints in the games (not the books) that the Blood Ravens are possibly the most stable of all Sanginius' prodigy.