Blood Ravens reference in A Thousand Sons

[Inquisitor Fox]

There are a few problems with the Blood Angels theory, mostly around how the Blood Ravens create new Space Marines (they use the adding of the organs process, not sanguination) and the fact that the Blood Ravens do NOT have sanguinary priests or any caskets for the Marine creation process. I was under the impression that all the Blood Angel successors used the same process as the Blood Angels, since that's where they get the gene-seed of Sanguineus from. Also, there's been no record in any of the novels or previous games of any instances of Black Rage or Red Thirst in the Blood Ravens. It wasn't until the DoW2 games that it was even discussed, which implies to me it's more of a red herring, and a connection too obvious due to the names of the Chapters to be the truth. It seems to me the connection that has been being built the entirety of their existence is the more likely target, especially since CS Goto in the preface to the DoW Omnibus states the clues are included in the stories within, as well as the fact that McNeil wrote the original IA article as well as Thousand Sons, so would have more information on the actual history of the Blood Ravens than most.

[raptor1199]

and in dow2 there is pistol(?) that says that they arent from blood angels

[Korraz]

Once Magnus made his deal, the mutation stopped.

 

Actually, the mutation did not stop, as far as I know. Otherwise the whole witchcraft business wouldn't have gotten worse and caused Ahriman to pull his "All is dust!" stunt, in the end. If Tzeentch would have wanted to stop it, it wouldn't have gotten worse after their escape.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Good exposition, hmk. makes much more sense than most of pro and anti-TS theories I saw here in the forum so far.

 

I just don't by that idea that you and some other guys here are saying that the game make it looks like they have a connection with the Blood Angels, because some relics (and the name, of course). The relics in the game are a "everything goes" basket, and if you look close enough, there's reference to a lot of things, not only BA. I think that those relic name was just some kind of "fan service" for 40k veterans.

[hmk17]

Yeah, there are a couple of nods to other chapters; but things like this are kinda blatant.

 

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2778/bloodangelravens.jpg

 

 

My comments mainly rested on a handful of things from DoW, Dark Crusade, and Soul Storm. The above is DoW2, which also has the teaser elements of TS abounding.

 

Your probably right, just Relic and GW fan servicing things and playing with us a tad.

 

5:1 odds we'll be playing as Blood Ravens in the MMORPG.

[Feuermann]

BA geneseed needs the blood of sanguinary priests to get activated. If they have not SP, they couldn't make more SM.

An in dark crussade, the captain have the fist of dorn in campaign(the thunder hammer)

[Phoebus]

For myself, I think "A Thousand Sons" gave as definite an answer as we're ever going to get regarding the Blood Ravens without stepping out of the "wink-wink, nod-nod" position GW and BL have on the matter.

 

Corvus is Latin for raven (or crow). The Corvidae have a blood-drop in their raven emblem. Also, they come from a Legion with a pre-disposition for psychic powers. The end of "A Thousand Sons" comes with

Ahriman, still in command of his Cult and Fellowship, making it known in no uncertain terms that he wants to prove his loyalty to the Emperor.

On the other hand, we know that he eventually went his own way. The Blood Ravens, who are practically named after the Corvidae and their emblem, were created in an unknown time.

 

My take? Some time between Ahriman's

"I'll show them we were loyal!"

phase and his conversion to the ways of Chaos, a number of the Corvidae, however small, broke off and became the nucleus of what would become the Blood Ravens. They kept their heraldry and made for themselves a name that would recall that, even in the darkest of times, they had fought on the side of good.

 

As for how they managed to stem the tide of mutation plaguing their gene-brethren, I haven't given it much thought. I do know this, though. Blood Angels-related Power Fists be damned, the Dawn of War PC games give your little company of Blood Ravens a plethora of artifacts with ties to pretty much every prominent Chapter out there. Just because "some" whisper that it hints at their "sanguinary rage" doesn't mean that (A) it's true or (B ) the aforementioned "some" are even Blood Ravens to begin with. :lol:

 

The hint that had me chomping was the implication that

Chaos didn't just steal the infant Primarchs; they were involved in their creation! Magnus at least believes that their making was at least in part thanks to pacts made between the Emperor and the Ruinous Powers!

 

[randian]

Why did the Administratum accept the Blood Ravens in the first place? Some Space Marines claim to be from a Chapter you have no record of and also claim to have no knowledge of their parent Legion? I'd immediately think they were agents of Chaos.

 

For one thing, all successor Chapters have rites and rituals that venerate their parent Legion and Primarch. If the Blood Ravens do not (because they're hiding their origins as Thousand Sons) that's suspicious. I wonder if they have secret rites that mention Magnus, or whether the BR's founders made a pact of silence, knowing that their inevitable deaths would leave their "descendants" knowing nothing of their origins.

 

Even if the Blood Ravens claim (as I'm sure they do) that they lost all records of their founding, how is it that the parent Legions did too? Vanishingly unlikely records would have been lost in both places. I'm sure the Administratum would have polled the First Founding Legions regarding records of the Blood Ravens. If they are TS offshoots, of course they wouldn't have any records of them. That's a big red flag.

 

The BR show up either before or after the Legions were split. If before, the BRs should have been apprehended since there shouldn't have been any successor chapters at that time. If after, it couldn't have been long after because Ahriman didn't remain loyal for that long. Records of successor Chapters should have been fresh, since they were just created and there was no galactic war to deal with. Again, the BRs should have been apprehended because they aren't on a very fresh and recent list.

[valanus]

It does seem strange that if the Blood Ravens are indeed a Thousands Sons successor chapter that it would have been allowed in the first place, I wasn't aware that the Imperium was such a forgiving place, allowing such a massive second chance to what are in their eyes at least, traitors. That said though it's not unknown, what with the end of Flight of the Eisenstein with the marines being coopted by Dorn.

GW will let us know in their own good time which will probably be never but never let it be said that i don't enjoy an exercise in futility as much as the next man...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@phoebus: on your last spoiler, i thought that had ALWAYS been the case.

 

WLK

[Phoebus]

You are an insightful man indeed, then. It came to me as a total surprise. But it certainly made sense, given the apparent vulnerability of the Primarchs to the workings of Chaos.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You are an insightful man indeed, then. It came to me as a total surprise. But it certainly made sense, given the apparent vulnerability of the Primarchs to the workings of Chaos.

 

I would never claim that.

I could have sworn such a thing was mentiond in the realm of chaos days, or maybe just something my group tossed around durng idle talk.

 

WLK

[Shayn]

Likely they were simply founded during the 13th through 21st foundings which all occured in M36. It seems that during this time, many gene seed experiments were done. Maybe they are simply an amalgam of 2 primarchs to create a stable gene-seed. Perhaps a loyal and heretic primarch? Davian Thule discoved somethng that disturbed him greatly that he will likely take to his death without ever revealing. It seems more likely that their primarch was likely known but how many people/marines have been around for 4-5 thousand years? None? The secret of their gene seed would not have to be public, governments do secret stuff all the time. Foundings for Space Marines bring about many chapters, maybe their primarch was said to be one thing but was really another, or in my example maybe they were told only their loyalist side and the other only toild to the Chapter Master, who chose to keep it a secret. All this is really just theories and we are likely never to get the definitive answer you seek.

 

Choosing a Chapter founded in Chaos that has risen to greatness, even with secrets (few chapters in the game exist without them), has the tang of GW magic. With the HH novels shedding light on how some of the Heretic Primarchs went less that willingly unto their fate maybe it is time for a little redemption. Who doesn't like an underdog?

[valanus]

I suppose it's perfectly possible, fluff-wise at least, as the Adeptus Terra has all the geneseed of all original SM chapters, including the traitor legions, under lock and key back on earth there's no reason why it couldn't be used to create a new chapter. Not quite sure why they would do that in the first place of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that they'd done something mental. Most of the leading imperial figures in 40k are as mad as a box of spiders....

[randian]

I suppose it's perfectly possible, fluff-wise at least, as the Adeptus Terra has all the geneseed of all original SM chapters, including the traitor legions, under lock and key back on earth there's no reason why it couldn't be used to create a new chapter. Not quite sure why they would do that in the first place of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that they'd done something mental.

What would be mental about it? Genetics doesn't determine character, and it's absurdly primitive for the Imperium to act as if it did. The Traitor Legions are reflections of their Primarch's character defects, not their geneseed. Even if geneseed were destiny, in some cases those defects would be features in the modern-day Imperium. For example, a Word Bearers successor chapter that were fanatical Emperor worshippers. The brutality of a World Eaters successor would go unremarked.

[valanus]

Good point, mainly because i'm not getting into some nature vs nurture debate about space marines... but yeah there is nothing wrong with the idea in theory as the TS gene seed wouldn't automatically lead to shenanigans, the problem would come if anyone ever found out, particularly some of the other more hardline SM chapters. Though game-wise that could be fun...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I suppose it's perfectly possible, fluff-wise at least, as the Adeptus Terra has all the geneseed of all original SM chapters, including the traitor legions, under lock and key back on earth there's no reason why it couldn't be used to create a new chapter. Not quite sure why they would do that in the first place of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that they'd done something mental.

What would be mental about it? Genetics doesn't determine character, and it's absurdly primitive for the Imperium to act as if it did. The Traitor Legions are reflections of their Primarch's character defects, not their geneseed. Even if geneseed were destiny, in some cases those defects would be features in the modern-day Imperium. For example, a Word Bearers successor chapter that were fanatical Emperor worshippers. The brutality of a World Eaters successor would go unremarked.

 

I think that while the Imperium IS absurdly primitive in certain aspects, trying out the Traitor Geneseed is something the Imperium probably has done before.

but do i think the TS gene is present in the BR? no. atleast, i hope not.

 

and the brutality of the World Eaters in the present imperium would certainly be frowned upon, look at the negative light the Flesh Tearers were held in (i am not sure is "crayon" Ward has changed te more recent Fluff on them.) Their savagness was so frowned upon the Impeial Guard refused their aid on occasions.

 

WLK

[Whitefireinferno]

I suppose it's perfectly possible, fluff-wise at least, as the Adeptus Terra has all the geneseed of all original SM chapters, including the traitor legions, under lock and key back on earth there's no reason why it couldn't be used to create a new chapter. Not quite sure why they would do that in the first place of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that they'd done something mental.

What would be mental about it? Genetics doesn't determine character, and it's absurdly primitive for the Imperium to act as if it did. The Traitor Legions are reflections of their Primarch's character defects, not their geneseed. Even if geneseed were destiny, in some cases those defects would be features in the modern-day Imperium. For example, a Word Bearers successor chapter that were fanatical Emperor worshippers. The brutality of a World Eaters successor would go unremarked.

 

I think that while the Imperium IS absurdly primitive in certain aspects, trying out the Traitor Geneseed is something the Imperium probably has done before.

but do i think the TS gene is present in the BR? no. atleast, i hope not.

 

and the brutality of the World Eaters in the present imperium would certainly be frowned upon, look at the negative light the Flesh Tearers were held in (i am not sure is "crayon" Ward has changed te more recent Fluff on them.) Their savagness was so frowned upon the Impeial Guard refused their aid on occasions.

 

WLK

 

 

The Guard refuse Help from us because we kinda got slash happy and chopped a number of them up along with some SOB at I beleive Armageddon Hell even other Marine Chapters dont really like siding with us and No the Brutallity has not been changed in the new dex only that Seth wants to redeem our name in some heroic way.

[Rain]

I really don't understand people that try to use common sense to argue against Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons successors. Sure it's rediculous, but come on this is 40k. It doesn't have to make any sense as long as it is considered "cool" and a chapter of the "oops we really didn't mean to be heretics" heretics fits that. Especially with all of the obvious hints they've dropped, it really is very obvious that they are TS. As for Ahriman, he doesn't actually serve Chaos as far as I understand it.

 

He wants to find the Black Library, but for his own sake and not that of Chaos, he serves himself and nobody else, including Magnus at this point as Magnus is a pawn of Tzeentch. In fact if I had to guess, I would guess that in DoW3 or somewhere we will get cooperation between Ahriman and certain traitor Blood Ravens as Ahriman might well see them as his "children" or at least proteges. This would actually make some sense as Ahriman encourages various sorcery through subterfuge and eventually shows up to collect the best psykers that these cults produce. Therefore it might be no coincidence that so many BR turn traitor.

[randian]

I think that while the Imperium IS absurdly primitive in certain aspects, trying out the Traitor Geneseed is something the Imperium probably has done before.

but do i think the TS gene is present in the BR? no. atleast, i hope not.

Thousand Sons? Because of their mutation problem, probably not. Still, that might not be a problem anymore. Tzeentch caused that mutation in order to own them, and now that he does he probably isn't searching the universe anymore for more psykers with TS geneseed.

and the brutality of the World Eaters in the present imperium would certainly be frowned upon, look at the negative light the Flesh Tearers were held in (i am not sure is "crayon" Ward has changed te more recent Fluff on them.)

I get the sense that the World Eaters reputation for over-the-top brutality was acquired under Angron's leadership, and that they weren't so out of control before he arrived.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think that while the Imperium IS absurdly primitive in certain aspects, trying out the Traitor Geneseed is something the Imperium probably has done before.

but do i think the TS gene is present in the BR? no. atleast, i hope not.

Thousand Sons? Because of their mutation problem, probably not. Still, that might not be a problem anymore. Tzeentch caused that mutation in order to own them, and now that he does he probably isn't searching the universe anymore for more psykers with TS geneseed.

and the brutality of the World Eaters in the present imperium would certainly be frowned upon, look at the negative light the Flesh Tearers were held in (i am not sure is "crayon" Ward has changed te more recent Fluff on them.)

I get the sense that the World Eaters reputation for over-the-top brutality was acquired under Angron's leadership, and that they weren't so out of control before he arrived.

 

I would go by the Tales of Heresy shorty story when Khârn firsts meets Angron, saying his soldiers were the eaters of cities, but under his command can become the eaters of worlds to show they probably werent the most sane of the space marine legions even prior to finding captain insano.

 

WLK

[Scope]

What`s your source on that? In every chaos codex and Index Astartes article it clearly describes a massive lightning storm of magic and whatnot over the Planet of Sorcerors, not every guy across the cosmos.

 

Ah I guess I was mistaken. Still there's absolutely no way the Blood Ravens could use Thousand Sons gene-seed without suffering horrific and widespread mutation. Nor were there any remnant Thousand Sons anywhere that the fluff notes that could have formed the basis of such a group. After all the Thousand Sons had pretty much entirely returned to Prospero before the Heresy and the invasion of the Space Wolves. There weren't any groups out on Campaign somewhere, not after the Council of Nikea.

 

The whole Blood Ravens being loyalist Thousand Sons is so impractical and rediculous given the fluff that it's just plain nuts. But given GW that won't stop them from doing it anyway.

 

Unless the geneseed was tampered with. Or it mutated further. Or maybe the Blood Ravens do suffer from horrific and widespread mutation?

 

Actually they do start to suffer from mutation at the end of the 3rd Blood Ravens book, One of thier new recruits comes out of the intitation process with very Tzeencian style pink tentacles for hands. If I remember correctly it is mentioned that thier geenseed is quite unstable and the number of new recruits getting through the initiation process successfully are few and far between - because of this they turn a blind eye and attempt to hide mutations.

 

I DO believe the Blood Ravens are a successor chapter to the Thousand Sons, all of the clues and hints are there but the HOW still has not been explained. I believe that a small number of loyal remaining TS's were allowed to operate as a new chapter in secret at the second founding, obviously they had a sympathiser on the council of terra or within the inquisition who have deleted the imperial records so thier past remained secret. This would explain the close ties to the inquisition and Ordo Malleus who appear to be keeping an eye out for any sign on mutation or heresy. The Mutations which start to plague the blood ravens at the end of the third book could be Tzeench catching up with them...

 

Some argue that the Imperium would not allow a traitor successor chapter to exist, but the fact remains that only half of each traitor legion were in fact traitors while the other half remained loyal and fought for the emperor to the end of the heresy - they were not traitors so would the imperium expunge such valuable assets after losing half of its marines to chaos?

 

What would they say?

 

"Thanks very much for remaining loyal to the imperium, you have resisted the call of chaos and remained untainted but because your primarchs were influenced by chaos your all too weak to live"

 

The imperium during this era was not the dogmatic, zealous bunch of homicidal religious fanatics we see in the 40th millenium, and cannon fluff states it was not a tyranical religious dictatorship until at least the age of apostacy many centuries after the end of the heresy. It is quite plausible that the Imperium of the 30th millenium who were people of science and reason would allow loyal space marines to exist in smaller numbers as a successor chapter. The records surrounding thier past were obviously deleted by a sympathiser high up in the imperium when the religious tyranny set it, to prevent the more religious factions such as the inquisition and ecclesiarchy from branding them traitors.

 

The botton line is, the Blood Ravens have come from a First Founding chapter as have all space marines... Thier traits point to one chapter over all others. Some wish they would not be part of the fluff, but they are cannon and not simply a video-game spin off whose past does not matter and only exist to bring video-gamers to the table top.

[Korraz]

Thousand Sons? Because of their mutation problem, probably not. Still, that might not be a problem anymore. Tzeentch caused that mutation in order to own them, and now that he does he probably isn't searching the universe anymore for more psykers with TS geneseed.

 

If he did, which is not confirmed, he never stopped. If anything, it got worse. And: Why should he stop looking for more Marines in his service? Knowing everything in the past and present, and all.

 

 

Well, I'm glad the Ravens suffer at least from Mutation. If they get expelled and taken down by the Imperium I might start respecting them again.

[Blckbuster]

But the loss of the Rhino STC isn't temporary.

 

It's specifically stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the Imperium no longer has the capability to construct them.

 

could you tell me where it says this? (page maybe?) I remember reading that there were whole forgeworlds turning out rhinos at one point

[The Broker]

But the loss of the Rhino STC isn't temporary.

 

It's specifically stated in the 5th Edition SM codex that the Imperium no longer has the capability to construct them.

 

could you tell me where it says this? (page maybe?) I remember reading that there were whole forgeworlds turning out rhinos at one point

 

Pg 76.